Having more than one snake in one tank.

[Plissken]

Give me a bona fide, makes-actual-sense/benefits-the-animals reason and I shall bow to superior knowledge.

I would have to agree. I simply cannot see why you would co-hab when it is just as easy, and better for the animals, not to.

 

[mike17l]

Reply to most on this thread

Direct quotes from the "Goddess" herself (they can be found at the link provided by penman6668):

Here is another thread to read:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17308

I generally do not house babies or adults together myself, but might consider doing so under certain conditions. I have colony bred Sinaloan milks in the past with good luck. And I have kept partial litters of baby corns together until their first meal, since that is when the most problems, stress or cannibalism, are likely to start. I have had at least 2 occasions since 1985 when a baby corn did eat another, even though they had never fed on anything before.

FYI: Colony bred = housed together pretty much year round.

I am going to post 2 relevant FAQs that I email to those who write asking for advice (I have written a number of them on commonly asked questions). They are long and are meant for those who have little experience and need help getting started. Those who are already experienced don't really need to read them, as they will already have heard enough to make up their own minds on whether the risk justifies the benefits. Some will agree with me, and some not. But they are my opinons based on my experiences.

If you have to keep some together, do it with the well established corns that have been in your collection for a long time.

After you have had the snakes for AT LEAST 3 or 4 months and have gotten to know them individually, you could try combining some of the best feeding, best growing ones in groups of two per cage.(be sure to separate while feeding, and for 1/2 hour afterwards) There will always be differences in feeding habits, timidity, etc. Some animals are more prone to stress than others. You won't know which ones at first, but after a few months you will know. Be ready to separate them at the first sign of one going off feed, regurging, behaving unusually, etc.

Knowing your particular animal is paramount to providing the best situation for it, and that takes time and observation.

I would not suggest that you put two (or more) together unless they have both been in your collection for at least a few months and are approximately the same size.

If you follow these instructions, you will often be able to EVENTUALLY keep 2 or 3 together once they are well acclimated. Just depends if you get a shy one. The more you keep in one cage, the more likely complications will occur (as mentioned above, going off feed, regurge, passing disease, etc.)

Even though it is more difficult to keep track of things with two or more together (and often, but not always, more stressful for the corns and can result in early pregnancy and other problems), it doesn't mean it can't be done. There are added precautions to be taken as well as added risks. It is not usually worth the added effort or additional slight risk for most people, but that is something that each person has to decide for themselves. The main problem is that it is usually beginners with new babies who want to try it - just asking for more problems than they might already have. I can tell you that even though I consider myself pretty experienced in corns, if I start working with a totally new species, I will follow the generally accepted advice with that species while gaining experience. Only when I feel I have some success with that species will I start to tinker with the accepted "recipe for success" that has already been established. On the other hand, nothing new would ever be learned if some people didn't experiment, keep records, and report their success and failures.

On the subject of risk, we do risky things every day and have to judge the risk vs. the benefits. The most dangerous thing IMHO is probably shipping them, although if done properly it is not terribly risky. In carefully controlled circumstances, I feel that housing together and feeding live rodents can be a lot less risky than shipping and other risky things we do (such as driving to work!). But please do not construe this as an invitation for beginners to throw all of their newly acquired corns together in a bin with a bunch of live rats!

Some experienced keepers offering advice get into the "never" or "always" do or don't this or that. But I go more for "usually" something works better than another thing . But each circumstance is different. Keepers who have a little experience and actually think about the likely consequences of what they are doing (and how to deal with them) can often successfully do things that beginners or "non-thinkers" will do haphazardly and unsuccessfully. Listen to all good advice, and then make your own informed decision based on your own circumstances and judgment.

These were all direct quotes, and are exactly what I have been saying: Though not always advised(and not advised in this particular situation), co-habbing can be done quite sucessfully.

 

[VegasGhost]

Yes, it is possible in circumstances noted. However, my personal belief (and don't bash me on this), if you can't afford a seperate $7 bin for another snake...then maybe you really can't afford to keep the snake.

I had alot of snakes and eventhough I would have loved to have had a bunch of tanks around it wasn't really feasible. So...after a day of research...and only spending $100...I built a rack with melamine, 8 sweater box bins and heating for all so they would all be alone. I also built a rack of 5 with a cabinet at the bottom for $75.

If you can afford to keep the snake, you really should then be able to afford to house it with the utmost safety and care it deserves.

My 2 cents...

 

[ickle_moose]

So........ other people's opinions have no merit just because you can cobble together an argument from a breeder other than yourself? Yes Kathy Love is well known and respected in the corn snake field, but come on, surely you don't need to completely cannibalise other posts to make a point? Still, you have yet to show me an argument that makes any sense or gives the animal a greater quality of life, so I am yet to bow down. If you thought I'd be scared off by a pile of quotes......yeah.....NO.

'Co-habbing can be done quite succesfully'...... so can the running of sweatshops. Or gangster outfits. Or, dare I say it........ franchise operations. Do they improve any animals/ humans quality of life? No. Can it be done? Sure, if a stress-free existence doesn't mean that much to you.

 

[mike17l]

So........ other people's opinions have no merit just because you can cobble together an argument from a breeder other than yourself? Yes Kathy Love is well known and respected in the corn snake field, but come on, surely you don't need to completely cannibalise other posts to make a point? Still, you have yet to show me an argument that makes any sense or gives the animal a greater quality of life, so I am yet to bow down. If you thought I'd be scared off by a pile of quotes......yeah.....NO.

'Co-habbing can be done quite succesfully'...... so can the running of sweatshops. Or gangster outfits. Or, dare I say it........ franchise operations. Do they improve any animals/ humans quality of life? No. Can it be done? Sure, if a stress-free existence doesn't mean that much to you.

"Cannibalise", and "pile of quotes"? Are you kidding me? Did you even go read the post I was quoting off of. I in no way "cannibalized" any post. I directly quoted the most respected and knowledgeable person in the business. I left out parts that did not pertain to the topic at hand, but if yo go back and look, you will see that I in no way altered the material to suit my needs. I have not said that co-habing should be done. I have merely argued that it can be done. And I have said that we should very rarely say never when it comes to animal husbandry. There are many times, this being one, when never just doesn't work. I have already given examples of when co-habing works very well. If you go back and read some of my earlier posts you can read about some situations where it is perfectly acceptable to co-hab. Numerous times in this thread, I have said that in the particular situation at hand, the corn snake and milk snake should not be housed together, that does not mean that it can not be done successfully and healthfully. Many zoological institutions house mambas and gaboon vipers together. They utilize very different areas and hardly ever come into contact.

 

[larryg]

I think part of Kathy's point is that not ALL snakes are even susceptible to stress as a result of living together. To use dogs as an example, some dogs are nervous 'nervebags' that are afraid of umbrellas and bark at fire hydrants, while most are not this way. Some dogs cannot live with other dogs because they are nervous freaks, while most dogs don't have a problem. You have to 'know your dog' as well as 'know your snake.' I'm sure some snakes enjoy the company of other snakes. Some of mine seem to, although I don't normally house them together. I'd think being able to stay with other snakes would be a sign of a snake with a stable mind (same for a dog that is able to be around other dogs without freaking out.) Keep in mind nervousness is hereditary and can also be the result of too much inbreeding. If you have a snake with a normal mind, it shouldn't be as big a concern.

 

[ickle_moose]

"I have not said that co-habing should be done. I have merely argued that it can be done.": Mike171

Er..... then why are we arguing? Again, I would point out that many many things 'can' be done, but that doesn't mean we should advise anyone to consider them! I 'can' eat a bucket of chicken wings in under 5 minutes, but would anyone recomment I do so on a day-to-day basis?

Oh, and no, I'm not kidding. I never said you altered the quotes to suit your needs, I was just trying to point out that the fact that just because Kathy Love said something, that doesn't necessarily mean that much to a brand new newbie who has no idea who she is, whereas a personalised quote (that can be logically defended) may mean a great deal, even if it is from 'snakeluverrrrr598475695'.

Pasting.... what was it....... 7 quotes from Kathy in one of your own posts doesn't help sway my opinion in the slightest.

 

[mike17l]

"I have not said that co-habing should be done. I have merely argued that it can be done.": Mike171

Er..... then why are we arguing?

Exactly, why are we arguing? If you had read the entirety of all of my posts, you would see that I have not been arguing in favor of co-habing in this situation, only arguing that it can be done. And, arguing that we should never(hardly ever) say never. When we say never, it limits us, it limits the possibilities. It hinders and holds us back.

 

[ickle_moose]

"Exactly, why are we arguing? If you had read the entirety of all of my posts, you would see that I have not been arguing in favor of co-habing in this situation, only arguing that it can be done. And, arguing that we should never(hardly ever) say never. When we say never, it limits us, it limits the possibilities. It hinders and holds us back." - Mike 171

Ok *takes deep breath*, I now leave this thread to others.

Abadawi, I wish you the best of luck with your pets, and apologise for the fact that your thread became an argument!

Mike171, I apologise if I caused any personal offence, I just happen to have strong views on this topic, as you and others also do. I enjoyed the spirited discussion, and suspect we are destined to have similar discussions in the future!

ickle_moose bows out.

 

[mike17l]

Mike171, I apologise if I caused any personal offence, I just happen to have strong views on this topic, as you and others also do. I enjoyed the spirited discussion, and suspect we are destined to have similar discussions in the future!

ickle_moose bows out.

You have not offended me at all. I too have enjoyed this discussion. I started a thread a couple months back in the new member section (titled: becoming a more proactive member) in which I mentioned that one thing that I hate is ignorance, when a person says never, it is usually be cause of ignorance. If I have said anything to enlighten you in anyway, I have accomplished my goals. Have a good one.

 

[Taceas]

I mentioned that one thing that I hate is ignorance, when a person says never, it is usually be cause of ignorance.

Really? Wow. I thought ignorance was caused by lazy people.

So my mom telling me I could never play with the neighbor's dog is because of ignorance? Maybe she knew I wasn't Cesar Millan and was looking out for my welfare because the dog had a history of biting children.

I'm not saying she can never keep her snakes together because of ignorance. I have seen what can happen in innocent mistakes, and its a snake that pays with its life. The only ignorance I see around is yours. I am saying one should never keep snakes together UNTIL they are fully prepared to deal with the consequences, which the OP does not seem to be. We are looking out for the welfare of their future snakes.

Can you cohabitate snakes? Sure. But to do so without the proper research, knowledge of your snakes' personalities, et cetera....is just asking for trouble.

But to go out and buy one snake from one species and one snake from another (becuz there perdy), slapping them in a 20 gallon and expecting them to live harmoniously together is an exaggeration and downright inhumane. Again, imho.

It'd be like going to go get a Convict Cichlid and a Betta and throwing them in the same tank. Despite the ample amount of room to move, you'd have one satiated Convict and no Betta. Certain things are not recommended for a reason, and I'm sorry that due to some sort of head trauma or lapse in intellect you missed that valuable lesson all parents teach their children: There are guidelines for everything for a reason.

We're not trying to deprive this person of the joys of keeping snakes, quite the contrary. We're trying to get her to realize the err in her ways beforehand so she can have two extremely happy and healthy snakes down the road.

But to blatantly say "its ok, if you do this and this" is wrong. Especially since Milk snakes ARE a form of King snake and will eat other snakes if the mood strikes them. I know I'd feel damned awful to come back a week later and see "My milk ate my corn, wut happnd?" And before you say "well you're wrong to tell her to keep them apart". Perhaps, but then again she asked for our input, and at least those in the "No Camp" aren't going to cause the death of one or both of her snakes.

I liken it to YON and her egg bound snake. That is a prime example of an idiot in charge of the welfare of an animal she has no earthly clue on how to take care of properly. Sure she throws food at it, but to squeeze the snake like a tube of toothpaste to get the eggs out, only to cause the intestines and everything else to spill out? And then, not two weeks later she's advising someone else on her "method". Yeah, great joerb there. *I* wouldn't want the death of anyone else's snakes hanging over my head because I felt like being the devil's advocate for a day.

Then again, I'm passed the "Younger 20's and Omniscient" stage. Not that I ever believe I was in it to begin with. :santa:

 

[Penman6668]

:-offtopic

Taceas

That is a great signature. I wish I would have thought to put the search link in mine. I am jealous you thought of it first.

 

[kathylove]

Since I have been quoted here, I will give a synopsis of the basis for all of my long winded FAQs on this controversial subject.

IMO, anyone who is asking whether it is ok probably should not consider it. They most likely do not have the experience to do it properly, although they could get lucky and co-hab without problems. I have known many people who housed corns together (but not milks and corns!) without any problems for years, but even more people who had lots of problems. So sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

IMO, there is no valid reason for MOST people to house them together in MOST situations. My suggestions in the FAQ about waiting a few months and using only well established animals are written because I have learned that some beginners are going to do it no matter what I say, so I am trying to give them the best chance for success. It does not mean I want them to do it.

The main reason I might consider housing 2 or 3 together is if I decide to build a very large, enriched environment (outside with live plants) to see if 2 or 3 would do better in that than one alone in a little plastic box (I dislike the boxes more as time goes on, but I certainly could not afford a large planted terrarium for each snake, and they do ok in boxes as I have them in now). I am fully aware that it will be a pain to find and separate them for feeding, and that the experiment may not prove successful, or it may be wildly successful. I am prepared to know my snakes and change my environment, or stop the experiment, as needed. I don't know when, or if, I will ever get around to even doing it. The above answers the question of what special circumstance (besides breeding) might benefit the snakes to be housed together instead of the way that most breeders (including me) currently keep them.

I don't like to say "never" keep them together, since many people successfully do just that, and it may get the snakes a better environment than could be obtained for each snake if they were separate. But by saying that, it may apprear that I endorse keeping them together, especially for those in the beginning stages who are the ones asking the question to start with. I do not - IMO novices should stay with the "tried and true" methods until they are experienced enough to make their own informed decisions. And experienced keepers need to be aware that in most cases they may well regret the decision to house more than one corn together as well.

 

[mike17l]

Really? Wow. I thought ignorance was caused by lazy people.

So my mom telling me I could never play with the neighbor's dog is because of ignorance? Maybe she knew I wasn't Cesar Millan and was looking out for my welfare because the dog had a history of biting children.

I'm not saying she can never keep her snakes together because of ignorance. I have seen what can happen in innocent mistakes, and its a snake that pays with its life. The only ignorance I see around is yours. I am saying one should never keep snakes together UNTIL they are fully prepared to deal with the consequences, which the OP does not seem to be. We are looking out for the welfare of their future snakes.

Can you cohabitate snakes? Sure. But to do so without the proper research, knowledge of your snakes' personalities, et cetera....is just asking for trouble.

But to go out and buy one snake from one species and one snake from another (becuz there perdy), slapping them in a 20 gallon and expecting them to live harmoniously together is an exaggeration and downright inhumane. Again, imho.

It'd be like going to go get a Convict Cichlid and a Betta and throwing them in the same tank. Despite the ample amount of room to move, you'd have one satiated Convict and no Betta. Certain things are not recommended for a reason, and I'm sorry that due to some sort of head trauma or lapse in intellect you missed that valuable lesson all parents teach their children: There are guidelines for everything for a reason.

We're not trying to deprive this person of the joys of keeping snakes, quite the contrary. We're trying to get her to realize the err in her ways beforehand so she can have two extremely happy and healthy snakes down the road.

But to blatantly say "its ok, if you do this and this" is wrong. Especially since Milk snakes ARE a form of King snake and will eat other snakes if the mood strikes them. I know I'd feel damned awful to come back a week later and see "My milk ate my corn, wut happnd?" And before you say "well you're wrong to tell her to keep them apart". Perhaps, but then again she asked for our input, and at least those in the "No Camp" aren't going to cause the death of one or both of her snakes.

I liken it to YON and her egg bound snake. That is a prime example of an idiot in charge of the welfare of an animal she has no earthly clue on how to take care of properly. Sure she throws food at it, but to squeeze the snake like a tube of toothpaste to get the eggs out, only to cause the intestines and everything else to spill out? And then, not two weeks later she's advising someone else on her "method". Yeah, great joerb there. *I* wouldn't want the death of anyone else's snakes hanging over my head because I felt like being the devil's advocate for a day.

Then again, I'm passed the "Younger 20's and Omniscient" stage. Not that I ever believe I was in it to begin with. :santa:

Have you even read the entire thread? Do I have to repeat myself to everyone? I have said multiple times that I do not recomend co-habing in this situation. (The situation being, a relativly new owner wanting to house two different genra of snakes together.) All I have repetativelly said, is that cohabing can be done in certain situations, including the one Kathy Love has mentioned. Her situation would be quite "visually appealing" if it included animals of different morphs.