I think Murphy is being very cruel to me! Need your thoughts/opinions

Two years ago I did a breeding loan with Stephanie (blkkat) from Triple Moons Exotics. I sent her my snow male, Maleficent, who was a possible het/homo for hypo to breed with her ghost female who she was going to test for being het amel. I sent him up to her, and of it, 10-12 (don't remember exact number of eggs laid) ghosts were hatched, but no snows. All of them were ruby-eyed ghosts which suggested that Maleficent was homo hypo.

Fast forward to this year. My ghost motley that I had wanted to prove out maleficent as possible hypo in him slugged out two years in a row so I was looking to replace her as I concluded she was infertile (knew it wasn't Maleficent as he's a breeding machine). I purchased an adult ghost motley from Stephanie last summer to start a coral snow motley project. Thinking that Maleficent was homo hypo, the F1 should be all ghosts het amel motley.

Well, she laid outside her lay box, and only five eggs ended up making it (this was 81 day clutch). All five that have made it (well one died when I slit it open after day 70) look to be regular anerys. This would indicate that Maleficent isn't homo hypo.

So the only think I can think of right now is that Maleficent is actually het hypo and we just got REALLY lucky in hatching out 100% ghosts from the first breeding and that I'm really unlucky in that out of 5, none are ghosts (as even if he was het, you'd expect 50% to be homo hypo). First thing I did when I saw this was to confirm with Stephanie that Maleficent was 100% the father, and he was, in fact, the only one her ghost had ever been paired with.

My only other thought is that the ghost motley could just be a really really light anery motley, but I don't think that's the case. I guess its possible that Murphy is just playing cruel after playing nice. But seems very unlikely that if he was only het, that out of 10 eggs, every single one would be a ghost from the original pairing.

Sorry this is long, but any other thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

New hatcling pics (they all look like this)





Maleficent



Ghost Motley



And two pics of two different hatchlings from the first pairing. Unfortunately I had to sell these two as for a while I had way too many snakes...

How confident are you that the female is a ghost and not anery motley? Because to me that explains it a lot more sensibly than just getting lucky and 100% ghosts the first time.

If your male is Snow het Hypo & the female is ghost motley, you would expect 50% ghost / 50% anery. A clutch size of only 5 eggs is really too small of a number to make a determination she's not a ghost. (in my opinion) I'd breed her to the same male if she double clutches & see what you get.

10 or 12 ghost hatchlings is a larger clutch... it does argue he's homo hypo, or you were very lucky 2 years ago.

I've personally had clutches where the expected ratios were 50% - 50% and the first 10 out were all one type... makes you crazy for sure! lol. So in the end, I don't have any advice I don't have any ghost motleys so I can't comment on her color either.

shed'n my skin said:

How confident are you that the female is a ghost and not anery motley? Because to me that explains it a lot more sensibly than just getting lucky and 100% ghosts the first time.

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She does look on the anery side.

shed'n my skin said:

How confident are you that the female is a ghost and not anery motley? Because to me that explains it a lot more sensibly than just getting lucky and 100% ghosts the first time.

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She looks like many other ghost motleys I've seen and I have no reason to doubt she's not.

Piper said:

If your male is Snow het Hypo & the female is ghost motley, you would expect 50% ghost / 50% anery. A clutch size of only 5 eggs is really too small of a number to make a determination she's not a ghost. (in my opinion) I'd breed her to the same male if she double clutches & see what you get.

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Well she already double clutched, but only 5 eggs were fertile, so it may not help much...

10 or 12 ghost hatchlings is a larger clutch... it does argue he's homo hypo, or you were very lucky 2 years ago.

I've personally had clutches where the expected ratios were 50% - 50% and the first 10 out were all one type... makes you crazy for sure! lol. So in the end, I don't have any advice I don't have any ghost motleys so I can't comment on her color either.

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Yeah, it's definitely a possibility that he's just het and I got really lucky then and am not getting lucky now by not hitting the 50% odds...

kimbyra said:

She does look on the anery side.

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Yeah, she's definitely a darker looking ghost. But doesn't look that darker from other ghost motleys I've seen. So I don't know...

He's currently being bred with a ghost stripe, so maybe that can help out. But that's at least another 3 months until anything happens, and I want answers now!! :fullauto:

Oh, wow, this sounds like one of those questions on the final exam of a grad-level Genetics course! I'm sorry that I don't have the expertise or the know-how to help you clear up your conundrum, but I *do* know what it's like to be wildly frustrated, with that I empathize with you! The babies *are* handsome, though, and...Maleficent is an awesome name for a snake! That was my favorite character in Sleeping Beauty! (I like the 3 fairies -- Flora, Fauna & Meriwether -- too, but Maleficent was just amazing! I would always grow 4 plants when a child, and all 4 bore those names... ) I hope that eventually somehow someway you find your answer!

It sounds to me like the snow male is probably homo hypo.
One thing to remember about punnet square ratios - they are only a probability, and while the predicted outcome is the most frequent outcome, you still miss it more often than you hit it, and that is predictable.

I like math - so I'll do some crunches.
With the first pairing producing 12 young - the odds of 12 / 12 homo hypo offspring if your snake is het is 0.00024 (0.024 %). If the clutch was 10 and not 12, the odds of 10 / 10 homo if yours is het is 0.00098 (0.098%) which is still extremely low. So either your snake is homo, the female retained sperm, or the pairing was a fluke.

I would suspect your ghost motley isn't actually hypo (motley can have a hypo effect) - or if it is, it is a different hypo line than your snow male.

We can safely conclude the snow is not Ultra - and we can probably conclude the motley ghost is not Ultra (or else you would have gotten some ultramel this breeding) but it wouldn't surprise me if there are some hypo genes floating around that haven't been identified yet. There's also sunkissed and lava, though I believe sunkissed has a pattern modification as well? May be hard to see with the motley in the mix.

My suggestion would be to borrow a male standard hypo and breed it to the motley "ghost" to prove it one way or the other.

Cegninedorf said:

Oh, wow, this sounds like one of those questions on the final exam of a grad-level Genetics course! I'm sorry that I don't have the expertise or the know-how to help you clear up your conundrum, but I *do* know what it's like to be wildly frustrated, with that I empathize with you! The babies *are* handsome, though, and...Maleficent is an awesome name for a snake! That was my favorite character in Sleeping Beauty! (I like the 3 fairies -- Flora, Fauna & Meriwether -- too, but Maleficent was just amazing! I would always grow 4 plants when a child, and all 4 bore those names... ) I hope that eventually somehow someway you find your answer!

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Haha. Yeah, Sleaping Beauty is my favorite Disney movie. I bought him as a her, hence the girl name. But turns out he's a he, but the name stuck.

FunkyRes said:

It sounds to me like the snow male is probably homo hypo.
One thing to remember about punnet square ratios - they are only a probability, and while the predicted outcome is the most frequent outcome, you still miss it more often than you hit it, and that is predictable.

I like math - so I'll do some crunches.
With the first pairing producing 12 young - the odds of 12 / 12 homo hypo offspring if your snake is het is 0.00024 (0.024 %). If the clutch was 10 and not 12, the odds of 10 / 10 homo if yours is het is 0.00098 (0.098%) which is still extremely low. So either your snake is homo, the female retained sperm, or the pairing was a fluke.

I would suspect your ghost motley isn't actually hypo (motley can have a hypo effect) - or if it is, it is a different hypo line than your snow male.

We can safely conclude the snow is not Ultra - and we can probably conclude the motley ghost is not Ultra (or else you would have gotten some ultramel this breeding) but it wouldn't surprise me if there are some hypo genes floating around that haven't been identified yet. There's also sunkissed and lava, though I believe sunkissed has a pattern modification as well? May be hard to see with the motley in the mix.

My suggestion would be to borrow a male standard hypo and breed it to the motley "ghost" to prove it one way or the other.

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Wow, when you crunch the numbers, it does look unlikely that he's just het. In the first pairing, the female was a virgin, so I don't think it was just a fluke or retained sperm.

The snow is currently breeding a ghost stripe, so hopefully that can shed some more light if she lays a healthy clutch that goes to term. Depending on what happens there, I have a hypo lav I can breed with the 'ghost' motley to see just what's going on.

Guys, "hypo" is a four letter word around my place. You really have NO idea the conflicting results I have seen over the years from that genetic trait.

Of course, this could all be explained away by Stephanie's animal actually being an Ultra Anery...

Rich Z said:

Guys, "hypo" is a four letter word around my place. You really have NO idea the conflicting results I have seen over the years from that genetic trait.

Of course, this could all be explained away by Stephanie's animal actually being an Ultra Anery...

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LOL Leave it to Rich to take this in a wwwwwwwwwwwwhole nuther direction

Rich Z said:

Guys, "hypo" is a four letter word around my place. You really have NO idea the conflicting results I have seen over the years from that genetic trait.

Of course, this could all be explained away by Stephanie's animal actually being an Ultra Anery...

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If it was Ultra anery, then when paired with her male snow, she would have gotten ultramel, no?

From way out of left field, and having little to nothing to do with the breeding outcome comes this question:

Is Maleficent, a snowsicle? Just curious, what his heritage is. Thanks.

Rich Z said:

Guys, "hypo" is a four letter word around my place. You really have NO idea the conflicting results I have seen over the years from that genetic trait.

Of course, this could all be explained away by Stephanie's animal actually being an Ultra Anery...

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If her snake really was an ultra anery, then I'll be kicking myself for selling off the hatchlings!! I'm sure if it is, she'll be kicking herself for selling off the dam. I really hop that's not the case! :headbang:

FunkyRes said:

If it was Ultra anery, then when paired with her male snow, she would have gotten ultramel, no?

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It would have been an anery ultramel, because both were also homo anery.

abell82 said:

From way out of left field, and having little to nothing to do with the breeding outcome comes this question:

Is Maleficent, a snowsicle? Just curious, what his heritage is. Thanks.

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Pure cornsnake as far as I know.

Well I'm the one who bought one of the hatchlings so if Rich is right I'll be seeing $$ . It'll be proven out here in about 2 weeks hopefully though as she was bred to a hypo this year and although her eggs got a little dry because she laid outside her lay box while I was out of town, I candled about a week ago and it looks like at least 8 of the 13 eggs are looking good. Hopefully that will at least shed some light on Rich's suggestion :eatsmiley

Pruddock said:

Well I'm the one who bought one of the hatchlings so if Rich is right I'll be seeing $$ . It'll be proven out here in about 2 weeks hopefully though as she was bred to a hypo this year and although her eggs got a little dry because she laid outside her lay box while I was out of town, I candled about a week ago and it looks like at least 8 of the 13 eggs are looking good. Hopefully that will at least shed some light on Rich's suggestion :eatsmiley

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Looking forward to hearing the results of that pipping

:-offtopic Thanks me too

This is the female who was paired with Maleficent that produced the Ruby-Eyed Ghosts.

Pruddock said:

Well I'm the one who bought one of the hatchlings so if Rich is right I'll be seeing $$ . It'll be proven out here in about 2 weeks hopefully though as she was bred to a hypo this year and although her eggs got a little dry because she laid outside her lay box while I was out of town, I candled about a week ago and it looks like at least 8 of the 13 eggs are looking good. Hopefully that will at least shed some light on Rich's suggestion :eatsmiley

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Can we see a picture of her? The offspring of Maleficent.

This is from this winter, i haven't taken any shots of her yet this spring really.

Did she loose the Ruby-Eyes as she matured or is it just that photo?