Controversial Topic: Handling Health Problems

If you have a snake or two, maybe you think of your snakes as beloved pets. If you're a committed breeder with dozens and dozens, you may think of them as livestock. The big-hearted pet people will always recommend a vet visit if a snake shows definite signs of a health problem. The breeders may handle things differently, and even opt for euthanizing the animals themselves. I'd like to keep euthanizing methods out of this. I'd also like to limit the discussion to snakes that are beyond the frail hatchling stage, so I don't want to discuss what we do with snakes under 50g or so.

I don't know what the BIG breeders (e.g., Zuchowski, Love, Soderberg) do, but I'm curious. Hopefully they'll respond. But I'm also interested in what the members here think.

One warning: this isn't the thread for people who have never even had to think about the issue. Emotional speculators can sit this one out...

I've been thinking about euthanasia for Butch and Calamity, even though they don't have a health problem as such. Both are very poor doers, because they are f/k feeders. I haven't got room to expand my mouse breeding operation too much, and buying weanling mice for live feeding isn't an option in this country.
If I tried to sell them I'd have to find someone devoted enough to breed a mouse supply for them.
For now I'm just about maintaining them on a slow growth pattern, but am setting up more breeding mice to try to get them fed more regularly. I'm not at all happy to have undersized snakes who's needs I can't fulfill. So I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and make a decision this summer.

That's a tough situation, Janine. If they're eager feeders of live, it's hard to consider their preference a "problem" at all. But believe me, I know: it's a heck of an expensive inconvenience. I'm dealing with it myself for a snake or two.

Thanks for the reply...

Thanks Deano. The new satin mice seem to produce well, and the litter that came with the female are all 'honey mooning' right now in their respective pairs, so the supply problem 'should' be sorted. If I could just buy live feeders I would have fat, happy snakes without squeaky breeders in my bedroom!

Dean, I have over 135 snakes here in my collection right now, and I think of them each as my pets. I offer them the best care that they could possibly have. Now this a controversial topic in itself, but I use rack systems like most breeders, but the difference is, you won't just find a snake with a paper towel, and no hide, or anything of that sort. I have hides, aspen, water dishes, and even plants in EACH of my tubs. It becomes a pain to clean and maintain, but I believe that your animals are only as good as you treat them. I have a vet just a call away, yes, like most, its a drive, out in the city is the closest one that would even remotely touch animals, but I do it if needed. Having a slight medical degree myself, I can handle alot of the things that come up, but if your animals are well maintained and cared for, there shouldn't be any issues of infection, bites, or anything else. I wouldn't be complete without the companionship that I feel with my reptiles, I could tell you the behavior and habits of each one in the collection, and even had names for each of them at one time. Sure, it sounds a little OCD'ish, but in the end, I do believe that its the best way.

I've had to euthanize two adults. They were both shipped to me in a package which encountered a shipping delay and was exposed to freezing cold temps. The thirty hour heat pack didn't last the night they were stuck in Memphis. One was was an eggbound female which I got for free with the other snake I had payed for. The person did tell me she had been like that for a while, but I thought with all the advice I had read about egg binding that I could do something for her. When I saw her I was absolutely horrified at how small she was, that breeder had no business putting her with a male and the eggbound condition I later found out had been left untreated for several months. There would have been no hope for that snake even if she hadn't had to go through a freezing shipping delay, that egg was well past the point of aspiration and calcified and she was very small.
The male that came in the same box had some kind of obvious neurological damage from the freezing temps, he was crawling sideways and acting pretty disoriented and distressed. I euthanized the female first and tried to give the male some time to recover but he just never did so I ended up having to do the same with him I won't say the breeder's name they have liquidated all their stock and moved on.

Some people are going to think less of me for this, but here goes:

I have never had to euthanize a snake, but I have had to in the case of other animals. I really think it depends on the emotional attachment to the animal. If the animal is a breeder, raised for the purpose of producing more animals and making a profit, it may be appropriate for the breeder to euthanize the animal rather than pay for expensive vet care. Also, once you have a certain number of snakes, you have enough experience to provide pretty much all of the care that a vet could provide. :shrugs:

Jrgh17 said:

Some people are going to think less of me for this, but here goes:

I have never had to euthanize a snake, but I have had to in the case of other animals. I really think it depends on the emotional attachment to the animal. If the animal is a breeder, raised for the purpose of producing more animals and making a profit, it may be appropriate for the breeder to euthanize the animal rather than pay for expensive vet care. Also, once you have a certain number of snakes, you have enough experience to provide pretty much all of the care that a vet could provide. :shrugs:

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Sure, thats with the corn snakes and smaller colubrids, but what about the large boids that can get some of the same infections as a human, therefore needing antibiotic shots. Will you deny vet care to those as well, just because of the expensive vet care?

Not trying to start a debate, just an interesting topic.

I think there just are some instances where there is nothing a vet can do. In my case the vet could perhaps have operated on the eggbound one but couldn't have reversed the damage done to both snakes by being exposed to freezing temps. If it had been a prolapse or an R.I. I would have gone to the vet at once, but this was a case where I just didn't feel anything could be done (this after searching the forums and discussing it with people I felt to be more knowledgeable than I was at the time)
This may be hypocritical to say but the snakes I have that are adults now and I raised from hatchlings (Apollo, Circe, & the 2 anery mot sisters) are beloved pets and though they are also breeders I am just more attached to them than I am to 'newer' snakes. I have just gotten to know them more, I guess. I know which ones are pissy when blue, which ones like to climb, which ones are less appreciative of being handled. It would just hurt so much more if something happened to one of them. I have a bunch of lovely new additions but my older ghost stock have earned their right to be favorites. But I consider none of them to be just livestock or money making machines by any means.

Jrgh17 said:

Also, once you have a certain number of snakes, you have enough experience to provide pretty much all of the care that a vet could provide. :shrugs:

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There is some truth to that. Most regular vets know very little about reptiles and therefore it is sometimes a waste of time going to them...been there done that. However, there are a handful of very good reptile vets that are full of knowledge and can do a lot more for a sick snake than the average breeder.

If it is an unknown ailment I'll try a few tricks and if they don't work I will end up taking the animal to the vet.

If the ailment is obvious (egg binding, age, etc) then I usually opt to take care of the euthanizing myself. Fortunately, this is very rare with adult animals and most of the time I see it with younger animals that we can't talk about in this thread due to restrictions of the initial poster.

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Fenderplayer108 said:

Sure, thats with the corn snakes and smaller colubrids, but what about the large boids that can get some of the same infections as a human, therefore needing antibiotic shots. Will you deny vet care to those as well, just because of the expensive vet care?

Not trying to start a debate, just an interesting topic.

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You missed something in my post: I wasn't talking about how *I* feel about my animals, so I can't answer your question.

I began my collection somewhere around 2003, so I was 14. I a male corn and when I noticed something wrong or out of the ordinary I went right to our family friend(now my boss) who was/is a well known reptile breeder. If he could not sort out the problem it was off to the vet. However now that I have a lot more animals, of many different species, and quite a bit more experience under my belt, I can handle most problems that come up. If something does go wrong now, I first usually post it on here or faunaclassifieds.com and see what you guys think, than I ask my boss. After having no success there I will than, this is where people start to hate me, evaluate the value of the animal. I am not going to say my animals are simply money making machines, but there in my opinion has to be some kind of financial logic. I cannot afford an 80$ vet visit for a 20$ normal corn, now my anery lavender or Suriname boas ect. ect. would be a different story. Some animals are easily replaced, others are not whether it be from a financial aspect or an emotional aspect. Not to be hypocritical but my first snake Ears, one of the few with names, is just a normal male corn. I would spend 300$ to get him healthy if he was sick.

onelifetolive45 said:

I cannot afford an 80$ vet visit for a 20$ normal corn, now my anery lavender or Suriname boas ect. ect. would be a different story. Some animals are easily replaced, others are not whether it be from a financial aspect or an emotional aspect. Not to be hypocritical but my first snake Ears, one of the few with names, is just a normal male corn. I would spend 300$ to get him healthy if he was sick.

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I cannot believe you value the life of one snake over another because of it's monetary value?! My $60 amel is just as fantastic as my $600 hypo pewter. I would give them the same treatment as a $10 normal male corn with 10 eyes and 2 feet.

I have only ever dealt with one seriously sick snake back in November last year. A fairly "worthless" male royal python who to anyone else was useless as a breeder as he was a crap feeder the OP's care. After I got him feeding again he developed a life threatening RI which eventually developed into pneumonia despite being on various broad spectrum anti biotics and many hundreds of pounds in vet bills. I had absolutly no choice but to euthanise him by vet recommendations when he started coughing up blood. It absolutely broke my heart, I could have afforded more treatment and I was willing to carry on, but for the sake of the poor snake I had to let him go on our final vet visit. Even though I had not had that snake in my care for 9 months after the first 3 months of owning him, I still remembered every little quirk about him and instantly fell back in love with him. I still miss him and I would do anything to turn back time (oh how cliche) and not have gave him away...

I have never had to enuthanise an adult corn, only a $400 yearling that was the size of a hatchling and had obvious internal issues and could not process food properly. The money didn't bother me, I did it for the sake of that runty little snake. If I was faced with euthanising an adult corn and only if there was absolutely nothing I could do to comfortably keep that animal alive then I would happily take it to the vets to be euthanised. I could quick happily sever the heads of hatchlings, but not an adult. That would be the quickest and most humane method of "household" euthanasia IMO.

I absolutely appreciate some keepers are breeders, and some keepers are hobbyist/pet keepers. I have snakes I consider beloved pets which I am breeding this year as part of my "hobby"... what does that make me? I simply cannot fathom putting a price on my animals life, but obviously when you have thousands of animals you have to make rash decisions. "Only the strong survive" is a brutal yet positive way to ensure strong bloodlines and healthy "stock".

Oh and BTW onelifetolive, did you start off with a different species of snake when you were 14? Because you quite clearly state here that you only started keeping corns in 2005.

I had my first corn, Ears in 2003, and began a collection in 2005 with a female and I thin kI got my second amel in 2005 as well. I really don't mean to cause any controversy or arguing. I really do have a love for my animals. My belief and what I strive for is to not even run into any issues which for the most time can be achieved through proper husbandry. When an issue does come up I do what I feel is necessary to fix the problem. I can take care of early RI's if they arise and early stages of mouth rot. I have taken snakes to the vet for problems that I simply had no idea what to do with, however I have had two incidents where I took the snake to the vet and I feel the animal was misdiagnosed and was put through more pain. Therefore I am leery when going to vets around me. However there is a very good vet named Keith Gold here in MD who is getting a lot better when it comes to herps. Again I don't mean to cause any arguments, thats not what this thread's original intent was. Dean was asking for people's opinion, I simply gave mine. As far as the years go when I acquired certain animals, I will admit I am not always 100% accurate, but I did receive little ole Ears when I was 14(it was my birthday present).

I'm not a run to the vet person, actually closest one wanted 68.00 to probe a snake. I was a nurse and have raised many farm animals. I think it would be case by case. If a snake is lethargic, dehydrated I might use a small needle and inject fluids right under the skin...There are so many things we can try on our own if we just think about it.
At some point for me it comes down to I paid $30.00 for this snake, she becomes egg bound. Is she worth a vet visit what would he do for her, those kinds of questions. This is just a made up scenerio. I don't thik however I would take her to vet, but do everything I could for her at home.
But this is me

Well, for me...a vet visit is nearly impossible. I live in the middle of the desert where the nearest vet that actually knows more than myself and a couple close friends about snakes is well over 200 miles away. That's not a simple 45 minute drive, mind you. That would require 2 full days off work, driving 5 hours to the vet with a 3 year old and a sick snake, spending several hours at the vets, spending the night, and driving 5 hours back the next day. It would have to be one mighty important snake for me to make that trip.

Call me what you will, and feel how you would like...I can't afford a $500 road trip on TOP of the thousand dollar vet bill for a normal corn that I can replace for $25. I really don't care how anyone feels about me for making this decision, but quite frankly, if the cost of caring for my animal's medical needs goes well beyond what the animal is worth, the animal is simply not getting the care. That would go for a dog, cat, guppy, or any other animal I have found myself in possession of over my lifetime.

And before anyone says it...no, the same is NOT true for my daughter. If my house needs to be evacuated, and I have room for either my daughter OR my snakes...the snakes stay behind, no matter their worth. The lives of my snakes are NOT worth the same as the life of my daughter, I do NOT feel the same love and companionship for them that I do for her, and where they are relatively easy to replace, she is a treasure that could never be. So don't even try to feed me the guilt trip about it, 'cause it simply isn't going to work.

With that said, I DO have several close friends that work closely WITH vets, and are able to provide better than average medical care specifically related to snakes when I find myself in need. I also maintain a supply of broad spectrum antibiotics and hypos at my house, "just in case", and I find that I am fairly capable of handling most problems either through my own knowledge, the knowledge found here and on other forums, and through close contacts in my area. I am good friends with several trained animal and reptile rescue personnel that specialize in the rehabilitation of wild reptiles, and if they cannot diagnose and cure my snakes, no local vet will...in fact, the local vet would tell me to call one of them if I DID go to his office with a snake issue...he always does.

I also have no problem making a decision as to when a snake's pain, suffering, or chance of survival override my right to preserve it's life. I have euthanised adult snakes that simply would not make it. I am in the process of considering when to end the struggle of a yearling that seems hell-bent on starving himself. He falls below the 50gram cutoff, so I shouldn't be talking about him, but...it is still a decision I need to make.

I try my best to take the best possible care of all of my snakes. They have good homes with clean bedding(not newspaper), hides, water dishes, foliage and "apparatus" even though they are housed in racks. If they become ill, I do everything I can to diagnose and help cure their illness, which, so far and knocking on wood, has worked just fine. But unfortunately, I cannot rationalize spending several hundred to a thousand dollars to possibly cure a $50 snake. Those of you with high-paying jobs, single lifestyles, and no children are welcome to think less of me for it. You can call it cold, or heartless, or irresponsible, or whatever you want...I call it rational and reasonable. It won't be the first time someone has thought less of me than I think of myself, you can be sure.

And for the record--Elle, I don't think you should address people so vociferously. This is a topic that is bound to spark emotional responses and different opinions. If you cannot control your emotions when responding to people with different opinions, than perhaps this is one topic you should avoid reading. I say that because I am quite positive I know what your reaction is going to be to my post. So before you get all emotional and tell me how evil I am, let me set the record straight...I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. This is a decision that I must make FOR myself and BY myself. Your opinion of my decision won't matter, so please don't waste your time or energy writing an emotional response...I still appreciate and respect you...we just have different opinions on this particular matter.

Well said. I'm sure this is supposed to be each person's own thoughts and experiences, not emotional speculation. (Nor discussion of methods)

From a personal point of view, all my animals are my pets, and I treat them as such. I don't think I could consider purchase price as a factor in seeking vet treatment, and my vets have seen everything from mice I bought as "feeder breeders", to cats, to exotic hedgehogs, to rats, to snakes for me. I am lucky to have a good relationship with them, and although no vet is an expert in all animals mine are willing to speak to other vets and find out information if necessary. All my animals are all worth a vet visit because I have promised a duty of care to them, and to me that duty of care includes prompt, expert, and continuing veterinary care when necessary.

Saying that, I am not one for major heroics as far as veterinary surgery goes. I have seen animals kept alive longer than they should be by vets, mainly on request of the owners - if treatment isn't going to have a good chance of ending suffering and giving the animal a good amount of pain-free life, then I think euthanasia should be sought. But that falls under the same heading as above. Sometimes euthanasia is the best veterinary care we can provide.

One thing that really upsets me is the attitude that profit should come into it at all. If you are trying to make a business of breeding and selling animals, then one thing you should have a big funds pot for is vet bills! Pets deserve vet treatment, and I feel that animals used for breeding we owe even more to - especially if the problem is breeding related. That eggbound girl is most likely eggbound because YOU chose to breed from her ... surely at that point we at least owe her the best try possible at fixing that problem, even if it means she can't be bred again, so she can live out the rest of her life as a pet? You've had what you wanted from her, so at least now let her have a life. If you can't make a living from snake breeding while treating the animals as well as possible, maybe it's time to accept that snake breeding is not a business opportunity. It's one thing to euthanise hatchlings that are kinked, poor feeders, or even just not the morph you were after - but I kind of feel we need to have some respect for the adults that produced them for us.

Janine, your dilemma about Butch and Calamity is huge, and I sympathise with you completely. I too would have major issues keeping alive snakes that could not and will not thrive in a captive environment. My other issue there is that while I can understand and justify to myself a couple of young live mice, pinkies or fuzzies, to save the life of a snake, I would not be able to justify a constant supply of live young adult or grown mice for one snake. But it's easy for me to say that when I am not, and have not been, in that situation.

The attitude of not wanting to pay for vets seems to come up regularly, and it really worries me. It's not something I've experienced outside of snakes. With my pet rats, it was normally easier - before I sold someone a rat, I'd interview them, get them to fill in a questionnaire, and get a copy of their vets' details so I could ring the vet as a reference for the person. It didn't guarantee me that the person would take good care of their rats, but it's a pretty good start. But in snakes that sort of attitude doesn't seem to be possible, people just will not give you details like that, they seem to consider that I have no right to ask anything, handing the cash over should be good enough for me. It's enough to make me wish snakes could be sexed like leopard geckos ... I would only ever incubate the right number of eggs and the right sex ratio for me to keep - no selling any snakes to other people, it would make me a lot less stressed!

tyflier said:

Well, for me...a vet visit is nearly impossible. I live in the middle of the desert where the nearest vet that actually knows more than myself and a couple close friends about snakes is well over 200 miles away. That's not a simple 45 minute drive, mind you. That would require 2 full days off work, driving 5 hours to the vet with a 3 year old and a sick snake, spending several hours at the vets, spending the night, and driving 5 hours back the next day. It would have to be one mighty important snake for me to make that trip.

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This is one thing that we over in the UK find very difficult to take into account. We live on a tiny little island ... noone is out of easy reach of a vet. Even if we've been over to the US on holiday and seen the vastness of it, it's impossible to really imagine living in a situation where you don't have vets or veterinary minded individuals close enough to visit at any time of day or night.

One of my cats was ill a month or so ago, and I thought myself inconvenienced having to drive ten miles to the emergency vets rather than a couple of miles to my normal daytime vets! For the record the veterinary treatment that night cost $1200, the cat originally cost me $5. Worth every penny!

Tula_Montage said:

I would give them the same treatment as a $10 normal male corn with 10 eyes and 2 feet.

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What if it was scaleless? :sidestep: