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Controversial Topic: Handling Health Problems

Well...really it makes sense. A vet is required to know intimately the inner workings of a majority of several different species of animals. A doctor is required to only know one. It takes an incredibly special individual to become a vetrinarian and they have my utmost respect.

When I say that local vets don't know anything about reptiles...it's not meant as a dig. Reptiles and exotics are simply not a commonly kept pet around here. Horses, mules, donkeys, dogs, cats, rabbits, rodents, fish, cows, chickens, and just about any mammal large or small...I would trust my local vets 110%. They are great doctors. But there is no demand for exotic bird and reptile vets in my area. We, the keepers, know this, and so do the vets. So the keepers learn as much as possible with close assistance from the vets(free of charge when possible), and we help each other as much as we possibly can. If someone "in the circle" can't fix the problem, one of us knows someone "outside the circle" that probably can.

This works to everyone's advantage, really, because the vets have reliable people they can send patients too when necessary, and saves the keepers spending extra money. It also helps that the vets around here trust most of us enough to go ahead and prescribe us supplies like hypodermic needles and broad spectrum antibiotics without too much hassle. They know we will eventually need it, and that we are pretty good at diagnosing when and how to administer it, so they don't have many qualms about letting us have access to it...

I remember the first few months of school, she had to memorize every bone muscle and nerve in the dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, and rabbit. Just looking through all of that gave me a headache.
I do not think that she would have taken so many electives in exotics and reptiles if not for my personal menagerie. She has a couple of good herp people in the area who she trusts enough to let them treat at home. That is good because those people tend to recommend the more inexperienced people to her to let her treat their animals and word of mouth is very good advertising.
 
I cannot believe you value the life of one snake over another because of it's monetary value?! My $60 amel is just as fantastic as my $600 hypo pewter. I would give them the same treatment as a $10 normal male corn with 10 eyes and 2 feet.

I certainly can, and I certainly do. If for a second you think I'm going to spend $300 to do something to a $30 amel then you are smoking the good stuff, Elle. If we're talking about a $3000 opal blood stripe, then that's a different story.

Call me cruel, but I don't consider my snakes 'pets' like perhaps you do.
 
I certainly can, and I certainly do. If for a second you think I'm going to spend $300 to do something to a $30 amel then you are smoking the good stuff, Elle. If we're talking about a $3000 opal blood stripe, then that's a different story.

Call me cruel, but I don't consider my snakes 'pets' like perhaps you do.

And that is absolutly ok Joe... I respect that descision, but I certainly don't agree with it.
 
Nobody commented on my previous thought and I think it's perhaps worth considering further?

I sometimes wonder if reptiles are considered differently because they are unable to express distress or pain in a vocal way? If you had a dog or a cat experiencing a difficult birth, they would howl or cry and I can't see any owner being able to ignore that. But an eggbound snake? It just sits there until 1) the problem clears of its own accord, 2) it gets help or 3) it dies/is killed by the owner.

Any thoughts?
 
Nobody commented on my previous thought and I think it's perhaps worth considering further?

I sometimes wonder if reptiles are considered differently because they are unable to express distress or pain in a vocal way? If you had a dog or a cat experiencing a difficult birth, they would howl or cry and I can't see any owner being able to ignore that. But an eggbound snake? It just sits there until 1) the problem clears of its own accord, 2) it gets help or 3) it dies/is killed by the owner.

Any thoughts?

It's an interesting point. Snakes in particular are very different from mammals in terms of assessing health status. An experienced keeper wouldn't be overly concerned if their male corn didn't eat for three months during breeding season, as long as it didn't rapidly waste away. But if my dog didn't eat for three days, I'd know that something was seriously wrong.

I had a snake that was eggbound last year, and through gentle massage and exercise, the condition was remedied. This took a couple of weeks. I had another that retained a small slug and I didn't know it. She didn't eat for a time after laying her eggs, and I was getting concerned, but she finally passed it. Neither snake was any worse for wear within a couple of months of these incidents. Now, I COULD have taken these snakes to the vet immediately upon suspecting a problem, and they could have been subjected to all sorts of stressful procedures (e.g., needles poked through their sides, administration of drugs, etc.), but in the end, I think my decisions were in the snakes' best interest.

I should also relate a story from many years ago. I had a skinny Miami-phase that became gravid as a result of cohabitation. I didn't know she was gravid. All I knew was that she had stopped eating (which I now know is normal in the weeks preceding egg-laying). I asked around and I was given the name of a vet who was known for being very good with reptiles. I took the snake to him, and despite the fact that she was near-term, and swollen with eggs, he did not diagnose that she was gravid. Sure, I didn't know either. I was inexperienced, and I had lost a snake to substrate impaction a few years before, so that was what I feared was causing the swelling. But I'm not a vet. After subjecting her to all sorts of poking and prodding, he concluded that she was just dehydrated and injected her with water in several areas. Three or four days later she laid her eggs. That snake would have been better off without the vet visit. I felt remorseful that I had put her through all that for nothing.

So, I don't know. I don't think this is a black-or-white issue. Like many aspects of snake husbandry, common sense is key.
 
And that is absolutly ok Joe... I respect that descision, but I certainly don't agree with it.

Great answer Elle!!

Deano, you'll go to hell for this thread.

I sometimes wonder if reptiles are considered differently because they are unable to express distress or pain in a vocal way? If you had a dog or a cat experiencing a difficult birth, they would howl or cry and I can't see any owner being able to ignore that. But an eggbound snake? It just sits there until 1) the problem clears of its own accord, 2) it gets help or 3) it dies/is killed by the owner.


Toughy. I live in a rural area, farm/ranch type country. I have had to euthinize a dog, a cow, and two snakes. I have seen many horses put down due to my association with horse racing. The mammals are much much harder to deal with.

I have killed thousands of mice. I can remember the first time, it made me feel bad for the mouse, it really did. It doesn’t any more. My wife doesn’t want to see it or be there when I do it. It makes her sad. She will take the dead carcasses and give them to the snakes no problem; she just doesn’t want to see them get dead.

This is a real individual thing. Each of us here sees our snakes differently. Beloved pet or livestock? The son I never had or an opportunity to breed a butter motley. One is not necessarily right or wrong. We all share a fascination for snakes and animals in general. Nobody here is torturing cats. I don’t believe anyone here would feel good about killing a snake even when it was the right thing to do.

I haven’t answered the questions have I. Not going to either.
 
I'm not a breeder, but I do plan to begin breeding when my Aneries mature. As most of you know from my exhaustive posts here about them, I recently had two that had problems. I chose to take both to the vet and in rapid order, dropped North of a grand on their care, and after all that, one still had to be euthanized. Why did I spend that kind of money, when I don't have it just laying around? For me, the main reason is because I'm still new to snakes. There's no smoking gun and barely any circumstantial evidence, but I felt that there was at least a chance that I might have caused their problems from my own ignorance. To me, that's intolorable and I felt an obligation to try to set things right with these snakes. It didn't matter than one was a $30 petco purchase. If I was 100% sure that I had no hand in their illnesses, I don't know that I would have gone that far with them.

It's crucial for this discussion to consider that the question was posed from the perspective of a breeder and not a casual pet owner. As harsh as it may sound, for someone breeding as a business (or hobby/business) it really does come down to a business decision (or at least business-like) process. We all have limited financial resources and so those have to be used wisely across the whole enterprise (family, hobby, etc). I don't completely agree with either extreme. I could not be as cold-hearted as some come across to be about this topic, but I wouldn't put my family's financial health at risk, either. I know that if I had 50 "Livestock" snakes and 1 "pet" snake, I'd probably be more apt to spend more for the pet than the others, even if the "pet" one was 'just a normal.' It's value wouldn't be in its DNA, but rather its status as a pet.
 
I certainly can, and I certainly do. If for a second you think I'm going to spend $300 to do something to a $30 amel then you are smoking the good stuff, Elle. If we're talking about a $3000 opal blood stripe, then that's a different story.

Call me cruel, but I don't consider my snakes 'pets' like perhaps you do.



I wonder how we represent this in relation to humans.. and before you say we cant they are snakes... just hear me out......

1. pretty model actress has cancer... doctor treats her cos she is WORTH more


2. Boring overweight unattractive lady has cancer.. well shes not worth as much so we leave her

and before you all jump on me ...ive lost family members to cancer so im not being nasty here...


JOE......your snake does not know it is an amel... and to allow it to suffer is sick..

when snakes become PURE 100% commodities to the point ANY human being can make such a callous throwaway remark deserves some sort of retribution..

IF karma operates on behalf of amels.. all your opal blood stripes wil have crypto... it really seems the only way our animals can show us what a mess were making of the beauty of the natural world!!!!!!!
 
I wonder how we represent this in relation to humans.. and before you say we cant they are snakes... just hear me out......

1. pretty model actress has cancer... doctor treats her cos she is WORTH more


2. Boring overweight unattractive lady has cancer.. well shes not worth as much so we leave her

and before you all jump on me ...ive lost family members to cancer so im not being nasty here...


JOE......your snake does not know it is an amel... and to allow it to suffer is sick..

when snakes become PURE 100% commodities to the point ANY human being can make such a callous throwaway remark deserves some sort of retribution..

IF karma operates on behalf of amels.. all your opal blood stripes wil have crypto... it really seems the only way our animals can show us what a mess were making of the beauty of the natural world!!!!!!!


Snakes are not people, and people are not snakes. People's lives are worth more than a snakes.

My grandfather died of cancer....so what's your point? It certainly sucked watching him deal with the pain for a year, and I wouldn't let a snake suffer until it died on it's own. I could gently coax it to the next life with a trip to the cool oasis.

I've got 50-60 snakes. That is past the point of them all being pets. In fact, my original pair that I bought in 2003 I sold earlier this year. If I want to keep making new and exciting things, some of the old standbys have to go. And if a $30 animal needs a $500 surgery then it's simply not a wise business decision to invest that much into that animal. If that sounds callous to you then I'm sorry, but I'm not going to shell out $500 on a $30 animal when I could spend that $500 on food for the remaining 59....
 
I wonder how we represent this in relation to humans.. and before you say we cant they are snakes... just hear me out......

1. pretty model actress has cancer... doctor treats her cos she is WORTH more


2. Boring overweight unattractive lady has cancer.. well shes not worth as much so we leave her

and before you all jump on me ...ive lost family members to cancer so im not being nasty here...

I heard you out, and the comparison still makes no sense. We're not talking about a snake's value to society, but to an individual. I'm sure if one of your examples was Joe's sister, it would make a difference to the answer you'd get, just like your opinion would be different depending on the value you place on the people in your examples. If the hot model was your sister would you prefer that she get the treatment if the decision was yours? Still, all of this is crap.

JOE......your snake does not know it is an amel... and to allow it to suffer is sick..
He didn't say he'd let a snake suffer. I know Joe. He would euthanize an animal if it was ill, but not worth throwing a bunch of money at. To me, it's a reasonable option. He has established that his snakes are breeding stock. Do you think that snakes should be exempt from the same selection practices employed by breeders of all other livestock?

when snakes become PURE 100% commodities to the point ANY human being can make such a callous throwaway remark deserves some sort of retribution..
Retribution? I don't think you're using the right word here. What do you feed your snakes, tofu? Why are feeder rodent breeders allowed to view their stock as pure commodity but snake breeders can't? What if Joe bred snakes to supply a cobra keeper with feeder animals? Would that make a difference to your thinking? Do you think the breeders of your feeder rodents take their sick stock to the vet? What's the difference?

IF karma operates on behalf of amels.. all your opal blood stripes wil have crypto... it really seems the only way our animals can show us what a mess were making of the beauty of the natural world!!!!!!!
This statement was unnecessary and I don't want to see any more like it.
 
I wonder how we represent this in relation to humans.. and before you say we cant they are snakes... just hear me out......

1. pretty model actress has cancer... doctor treats her cos she is WORTH more


2. Boring overweight unattractive lady has cancer.. well shes not worth as much so we leave her

and before you all jump on me ...ive lost family members to cancer so im not being nasty here...

Actually, we do this all the time. Ever known someone who was up for organ donation? The donor list is arranged based on several factors, and only ONE of them is need. A smoker can not receive a lung transplant. Anyone who has had a suicide attempt is usually not allowed to receive an organ. A single parent with multiple children is placed much higher than an unmarried person without kids. These people are deemed to have "more" or "less" to live for, depending on the factors we've chosen. A smoker is "less" worth saving than a mother. We rate humans in EXACTLY the same way that we place values on snakes.
 
I appologise for my harsh remarks but it is how if eel within my heart of hearts...

that is how i feel it is my opinion however i completely respect and value all of yours therefore shall make no further comments on this thread... except one....

i was recently asked to take on a sick water dragon here she is...

she cost me nothing and in total he vets bill will cost around 800 dollars to have her eggs removed have her neutered and keep her admitted to critical care for 2 to 3 weeks

she is 4 years old and was bullied by a massive 3 ft m,ale for 4 years.. she has a dislocated hip.. extreme malnourishment... extreme dehydration... mouth rot snout damage.. issues with follicles etc..

i have had her 6 days without my ability to see past her "worth" she would have died..

a good business prospect.NO...

a love for animals without placing value on them yes...I feel SO strongly about this i posted with an extreme emotion behind my words.. i stand by them but i wil respect everyone here and refrain from posting again.. it wil however not change my views on the way we grade what we would do to save or help animals regarding WORTH...






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Just like livestock, dogs, cats, etc, snakes are legally considered "property" and technically, their owner can do whatever they please with them. Where the law draws the line between this and animal cruelty, I really don't know. However, I DO know that an owner has every right to perform "veterinary procedures" on their own pets, including surgery.

How someone considers their snakes is no different than how every person that owns a dog, cat, livestock, etc considers them. One person may think of their adopted stray cat ("value" of "a dime a dozen at your local animal control") as worth every penny of a $5000 vet bill, while another person may consider the runt puppy from their litter of champion dogs ("value" of "the littermates will sell for $5000 each") not worth the extra effort on their part to supplement it's feedings with a bottle of formula to keep it alive. And this is FACT as I see it every day. I see owners put time, effort and money into trying to keep their pet alive, but suffering, just for themselves, as well as owners that euthanize their pets instead of treating a curable condition. Financial considerations are extremely important to many people, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the "value" of an animal.

If every practicing veterinarian was well versed in the treatment of exotic pets, then I'm sure more snakes would see a vet when ill. Unfortunately, as it has been mentioned, that is not the case, and even some vets that DO treat exotics don't have the knowledge that many of the breeders on this forum have. I would also like to add that the same applies for vets that treat horses, cattle, chickens, sheep, pigs, etc. Look in your local phone book and find the percentage of vets that see livestock and compare it to those that only see dogs and cats. And there are even some vets that won't see dogs! And just for kicks, call a large animal vet and ask them what to do for a sheep that recently had a lamb but won't stand up now. Most of them won't have a clue...but a shepherd will know exactly what to do, and that shepherd will not even think to call for a vet. He doesn't need to because he knows how to treat her as the more experienced shepherd that lives on the other side of town down told him what to do last week-end while they shared a pitcher of beer.

Do I consider Elle foolish for spending so much time, effort and money on a ball python...no. Do I find fault in Joe not wanting to take an amel to a vet if he can't treat it himself...no. There is no "right" and "wrong", only what each person can do for their snake/dog/cat/etc for each individual situation, as it occurs, that they are able to do with a clear conscience.
 
Susan, I know what you mean, we used to have so many large animal vets here, now maybe two or three. Mostly those are for horses, even 20 years ago. I could get a vet out for a horse or cow, but a goat, pigs or sheep forget it. I have tons of respect for vets, but people here with goats, pigs or sheep even cows now have to fend for themselves.
 
Wow, I will jump in on this thread!

I believe in self treatment, if possible. I am treating a few animals at this time. I will briefly explain how I approach medicating my colony in the next few days, while you guys give me more to talk about.

Here is what I use. If you breed Snakes as livestock as I do, you can acquire these medicines from a Vet legally and everything you need to administer them. I will tell you how to educate yourself, and with the assistance of the Vet, you can establish that you are treating livestock, just like sheep, cattle and horses. You can treat them under some self treating dog and cat rules as well. Different states are different, and if you want a controversial thread, some of my opinions on this subject can certainly cause controversy.
I cannot believe you value the life of one snake over another because of it's monetary value?! My $60 amel is just as fantastic as my $600 hypo pewter. I would give them the same treatment as a $10 normal male corn with 10 eyes and 2 feet.
I do not understand this kind of thinking, but I respect the opinion, and I how they feel about the subject. My opinion and how I feel about he subject will never be understood by someone with this opinion that is opposite to mine. I hope my opinion will be respected as well.

I will tell you how I am able to self medicate and perhaps it will work for you, when I sit down for a break over the next couple of days and read up on the thread.
 

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I appologise for my harsh remarks but it is how if eel within my heart of hearts...

that is how i feel it is my opinion however i completely respect and value all of yours therefore shall make no further comments on this thread... except one....

i was recently asked to take on a sick water dragon here she is...

she cost me nothing and in total he vets bill will cost around 800 dollars to have her eggs removed have her neutered and keep her admitted to critical care for 2 to 3 weeks

she is 4 years old and was bullied by a massive 3 ft m,ale for 4 years.. she has a dislocated hip.. extreme malnourishment... extreme dehydration... mouth rot snout damage.. issues with follicles etc..

i have had her 6 days without my ability to see past her "worth" she would have died..

a good business prospect.NO...

a love for animals without placing value on them yes...I feel SO strongly about this i posted with an extreme emotion behind my words.. i stand by them but i wil respect everyone here and refrain from posting again.. it wil however not change my views on the way we grade what we would do to save or help animals regarding WORTH...

That is your perogative. I would not have taken the dragon in. That is my perogative. I would not have taken the dragon and allowed it to suffer needlessly under my care, nor do I think there is a member of this forum that would sit idly by and allow an animal to suffer needlessly. The only difference is in the manner which we will each choose to deal with that animal's suffering. No one is "better" than the other.
 
I'm pretty sure my opinion won't be respect or even noticed because I only have 5 snakes and because of my beauty snake...
But, I feel that I should say something..? Let's hope I don't regret it..
The only time that I thought of killing a snake because it was unhealthy was when I thought my beauty was sick and I had no way out. The vet appointment was made, my mom just wouldn't go. And IF I went on a bus to go to the vet which is about 2 hours away I would have most likely gotten raped or kidnapped. Trenton is not a good area for 13 year olds to walk around with snakes...
He ended up being fine... and then dying...

When I'm older hopefully I'll go to college and stuff because I really want to be a herpetologist (I did a report on it in school, too) and/or vet so I could treat my snakes if they get sick. Now of course dreams rarely come true but I'm hoping...

In my opinion, if you think you can't do anything for the snake then it's better to euthanize it.. But if it's something simple that CAN be treated then it's a bit unfair to the animal...
I have a not-so-good opinion of breeders that think of their snakes/reptiles/animals in general as just "things" you can make money off of. In my world animals and nature are far more important than humans could ever be, it's not like we do any good for the planet. :shrugs:
 
I believe in self treatment, if possible. I am treating a few animals at this time. I will briefly explain how I approach medicating my colony in the next few days, while you guys give me more to talk about.

Here is what I use. If you breed Snakes as livestock as I do, you can acquire these medicines from a Vet legally and everything you need to administer them. I will tell you how to educate yourself, and with the assistance of the Vet, you can establish that you are treating livestock, just like sheep, cattle and horses. You can treat them under some self treating dog and cat rules as well. Different states are different, and if you want a controversial thread, some of my opinions on this subject can certainly cause controversy.

I do not understand this kind of thinking, but I respect the opinion, and I how they feel about the subject. My opinion and how I feel about he subject will never be understood by someone with this opinion that is opposite to mine. I hope my opinion will be respected as well.

I will tell you how I am able to self medicate and perhaps it will work for you, when I sit down for a break over the next couple of days and read up on the thread.

Just curious, is that a full-strength bottle of Baytril 100, or a used one that your vet filled with some diluted Baytril 100?
 
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