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Buf and caramel from one clutch

Sorry i stoped here you will not see what it is becouse your not open for this the only thing you do is disprove LOOK AD THE BREEDINGS AND FACTS.And don't start the discoussion about hybreds sorry
For the people who interest i will do update the last two clutches i think they will hatch soon now 61 day and further i wil see you next year ore so.

This has no hope when people are so short-sighted and narrow minded you look just my landmates, nothing can only what the self have.

greatings jan
 
slangenbroed said:
Sorry i stoped here you will not see what it is becouse your not open for this the only thing you do is disprove LOOK AD THE BREEDINGS AND FACTS.
Click to expand...
The breeding FACTS are that you did NOT breed the original "buf" snake to a known Caramel. That is YOUR fault, not ours.


This has no hope when people are so short-sighted and narrow minded .
Click to expand...
YOU are expecting US to believe your narrow minded breeding trials that have NOT taken care of the obvious. Just because you tell me a rose is a daisy, doesn't make it a daisy.

That's too bad, I was really hoping you could PROVE something out and that you do have a "buf" and "orange". Right now, you haven't and as far as I'm concerned you don't. :shrugs:
D80
 
slangenbroed said:
Sorry i stoped here you will not see what it is becouse your not open for this the only thing you do is disprove LOOK AD THE BREEDINGS AND FACTS.And don't start the discoussion about hybreds sorry
For the people who interest i will do update the last two clutches i think they will hatch soon now 61 day and further i wil see you next year ore so.

This has no hope when people are so short-sighted and narrow minded you look just my landmates, nothing can only what the self have.

greatings jan
Click to expand...

Jan-

Nobody is being shortsighted and narrow minded except you. You have not done any breedings that have provided concrete data upon which to formulate your conclusions, yet you expect us to accept your conclusions as valid. Unfortunately, science doesn't work that way.

It is YOUR responsibility to perform accurate breeding trials in order to isolate and identify your gene. You cannot expect anyone to accept what you have posted as factual data because, quite simply, there are FAR too many possibilities and variables that have not been explored and/or eliminated. Your breeding "trials" are really nothing more than breedings designed to produce more offspring with different traits. At this point, your "trials" have given these animals heterozygous qualities for everything from caramel to lavander including motley and stripe. But they have done NOTHING to prove, decisively, that these snakes are not a displaying a known trait.

What you are doing is damaging your own reputation, unfortunately. The more you fight with everyone to "prove" you are right, without having ever done the PROPER legwork and research...the less reliable your data and your "word" become. If you had performed the appropriate breeding trials from day one, and not posted anything "conclusive" until there was something concrete and truly conclusive to spost...you would have found a much more accepting forum.

Instead, you performed the most unreliable form of trial you could(breeding to a het.), and accepted the return as fact. You had an unreliable pairing that produced an exceptionally low number of offspring, with the results you were looking for, and you accepted it as fact. The reality is that your initial breeding trial is completely irrelevant. The number of eggs produced combined with the odds of actual proving through a heterozygous pairing do not add up to a fact, I'm sorry to say. They add up to a horrible breeding trial with ZERO factual and concrete data upon which to base your "findings".

Your breeding trials are akin to a scientist testing a cure for cancer on a patient that has a family history of cancer, but has not been diagnosed. Publishing the results and claiming a cure would be absolutely ridiculous in that situation. But that is what you have done with your breeding trials.

Please...instead of taking offense to what we are saying, take the advice to heart, perform accurate breeding trials, compile concrete data, and show us the results. That's all anyone wants...
 
Drizzt80 said:
Here's a perfect example of the trials and tribulations you need to go through to prove you have found a new gene:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8153&highlight=Translucent+Hypos
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27322

Read through those two threads, then perform your NECESSARY breeding trials, and then come back and tell us about your "buf" and "orange". I would love to see you prove them out . . . but you HAVE to do it the proper way.

D80
Click to expand...

I agree! MOST of us get VERY excited at the discovery of a new gene. If nothing else, it takes the focus off some of the "older" new genes, and helps to reduce the prices so us normal people can afford them...;).

But the reality is, you need to go about it properly in order to gain the acceptance you want. I truly and honestly hope that you are able to prove this irrefutably. But in order to do so...you need to take the proper steps, and eliminate every other possibility.

Oh and as regards a statement you made earlier about where new genes come from:

Yes, I DO believe that the VAST majority of newly discovered genes are simply lying hidden in heterozygous form, just waiting for someone to put the right two snakes together. I do NOT believe that the "spontaneous mutation" is at ALL a common occurence, and I do NOT believe that it is a valid claim when discussing a new discovery. I DO believe that these genes exist in het. form, just waiting to be exposed in homo. form. It's FAR easier to believe this than to believe that 1 in a trillion chances happen more often than once in a trillion babies...
 
Drizzt80 said:
The breeding FACTS are that you did NOT breed the original "buf" snake to a known Caramel. That is YOUR fault, not ours.
I bred here to a het caramel, what is the difference.When a bred here to caramel than is the outcome

Buf het amel.....Bna
x
Caramel........nncaca

........B.......Ba........n........na
nca...Bnca..Bnaca...nnca....nnaca

Buf het caramel.......Bnca
Buf het amel and caramel........Bnaca
Normal het caramel...........nnca
Normal het amel and carame.........nnaca

What you are telling is that the Bnca Buf het caramel is the same as the nnca normal het caramel ( that is not true a caramel looks different than a buf ) In the opinion from you is that from the first breeding al animals are buf becouse every animal is het caramel.


When i bred here to a het caramel

Bna
x
nnca

..........B..........Ba.........n........na
n........Bn.........Bna.......nn......nna
nca.....Bnca......Bnaca...nnca...nnaca

Buf......Bn
Buf het amel.......Bna
Normal..........nn
Normal het amel........nna
Buf het caramel.......Bnca
Buf het amel and caramel.........Bnaca
Normal het caramel........nnca
Normal het amel and caramel.......nnaca

For me it make no sence to put a caramel instad a het caramel as you see in the caramel and the het caramel bred there are the same animals born only in the het breding you have possible hets.
And here the het caramels are buf and the not het caramel are normals from what you are say.
What you are saying that i collect het caramel animals in the normal and the amel form ( buf and Orange )Then it makes this

Orange................nnaaca
x
Buf het amel.........nnaca.....( normale het caramel and amel )

( i did this with the F1 2x )


............na..............naca
n..........nna.............nnaca
na.........nnaa...........nnaaca
nca........nnaca........nnacaca
naca......nnaca.........nnaacaca

Orange................nnaaca
x
Orange................nnaaca

( i did this with the F1 1x )

...........na..........naca
na........nnaa.......nnaaca
naca.....nnaaca....nnaacaca


Then there is caramel het amel nnacaca and butter nnaacaca
but i never had bred a single caramel ore a butter from thoose breedings.



YOU are expecting US to believe your narrow minded breeding trials that have NOT taken care of the obvious. Just because you tell me a rose is a daisy, doesn't make it a daisy.

That's too bad, I was really hoping you could PROVE something out and that you do have a "buf" and "orange". Right now, you haven't and as far as I'm concerned you don't. :shrugs:I belief a can´t do that with the F1 animals but in the F2 i think a can prove that,and i hope this year
D80
Click to expand...

You must see my site from the story ,the first animal ) grandma people say it was a caramel other say it was amber.A had then only one animal that was het caramel to put here on and there was no caramel outcome at all.Then they say put it to animals who is not het amel,i took lavender outcome from Orange x lavender was normal,amel,buf and orange al het lavender.But the lavender male was het amel i didn´t now that.Then i put it to phantom x orange outcome normal and buf,phantom x buf het amel outcome normal and buf.:headbang:I even try ultramel x buf het amel outcome normal,amel,buf,Orange and some strange looking animal one is Orange with a strange look and some buf with a strange look i think the involving from the origen from the ultramel.:rolleyes:
Don´t forget al the animals a called buf are the same and al the orange are the same with a little difference that is in all colours

i don´t maen it personly D80

greatings

Jan
 
tyflier said:
Jan-

Nobody is being shortsighted and narrow minded except you. You have not done any breedings that have provided concrete data upon which to formulate your conclusions, yet you expect us to accept your conclusions as valid. Unfortunately, science doesn't work that way.

It is YOUR responsibility to perform accurate breeding trials in order to isolate and identify your gene. You cannot expect anyone to accept what you have posted as factual data because, quite simply, there are FAR too many possibilities and variables that have not been explored and/or eliminated. Your breeding "trials" are really nothing more than breedings designed to produce more offspring with different traits. At this point, your "trials" have given these animals heterozygous qualities for everything from caramel to lavander including motley and stripe. But they have done NOTHING to prove, decisively, that these snakes are not a displaying a known trait.

What you are doing is damaging your own reputation, unfortunately. The more you fight with everyone to "prove" you are right, without having ever done the PROPER legwork and research...the less reliable your data and your "word" become. If you had performed the appropriate breeding trials from day one, and not posted anything "conclusive" until there was something concrete and truly conclusive to spost...you would have found a much more accepting forum.

Instead, you performed the most unreliable form of trial you could(breeding to a het.), and accepted the return as fact. You had an unreliable pairing that produced an exceptionally low number of offspring, with the results you were looking for, and you accepted it as fact. The reality is that your initial breeding trial is completely irrelevant. The number of eggs produced combined with the odds of actual proving through a heterozygous pairing do not add up to a fact, I'm sorry to say. They add up to a horrible breeding trial with ZERO factual and concrete data upon which to base your "findings".

Your breeding trials are akin to a scientist testing a cure for cancer on a patient that has a family history of cancer, but has not been diagnosed. Publishing the results and claiming a cure would be absolutely ridiculous in that situation. But that is what you have done with your breeding trials.

Please...instead of taking offense to what we are saying, take the advice to heart, perform accurate breeding trials, compile concrete data, and show us the results. That's all anyone wants...
Click to expand...

I ask several times what will best to bred , please help an say what to do!!!!!!
 
It's obvious
A. you didn't read the two links I posted,
B. you don't have an understanding of genetics and proving out genes,
C. you expect us to listen (and believe) you, but you choose not to listen to our recommendations on proving your """"new"""" gene,
D. your refusal to follow the necessary steps to PROVE your "buf" and "orange" puts you in the court of being "short sided and narrow minded" (your words).

Good luck.
D80

PS. Here's a "buf" I hatched this summer. Look how light he is!
PG08081.jpg
 
tyflier said:
I agree! MOST of us get VERY excited at the discovery of a new gene. If nothing else, it takes the focus off some of the "older" new genes, and helps to reduce the prices so us normal people can afford them...;).

But the reality is, you need to go about it properly in order to gain the acceptance you want. I truly and honestly hope that you are able to prove this irrefutably. But in order to do so...you need to take the proper steps, and eliminate every other possibility.

Oh and as regards a statement you made earlier about where new genes come from:

Yes, I DO believe that the VAST majority of newly discovered genes are simply lying hidden in heterozygous form, just waiting for someone to put the right two snakes together. I do NOT believe that the "spontaneous mutation" is at ALL a common occurence, and I do NOT believe that it is a valid claim when discussing a new discovery. I DO believe that these genes exist in het. form, just waiting to be exposed in homo. form. It's FAR easier to believe this than to believe that 1 in a trillion chances happen more often than once in a trillion babies...
Click to expand...

I agree i put the lath to high to use new morphs for the testing.But you now a had only a amel het caramel and striped het caramel and lavender in stock.And last year i could get an ultramel and a phantom,i also buy ultramelmotley,golddustmotley,sunkissed,ice,ultraanery,ultramel het lavender.
Al thoose animals i wanted to prove agains orange.I thought take new morphs not the regular one like amel caramel ghost hypo ectect.
I was stopping with cornsnakes in 2001 when i bred that animal the most morphs i sold and i was breeding mandarina,coxi and other chinees snakes.
We will go back to the basic
 
slangenbroed said:
I ask several times what will best to bred , please help an say what to do!!!!!!
Click to expand...
You need to breed a buff to a caramel and an orange to a caramel and that caramel shouldn't have any amel (het or homo) if possible. I wouldn't use your golddust motley because that throws ultra into the combination which could make it more confusing. Then again that could also test against ultra at the same time. Yes, it is more fun to work with more genes but it also makes it harder to figure out what you have. I would also breed to hypo which is common to show that it isn't compatible. You need to work on isolating the gene itself. I'd also breed two of the amels that were in the same clutch as oranges to see if amel x amel would give some amels and some oranges. That would help to test if it is separate from amel and recessive.

In general we like new genes - it gives us something else to play with. We just like to see lots of proof before we accept much. If you don't have the snakes to test breed see if some of the other breeders will help you out. Heck...if I could find a way to get them over here that wouldn't involve selling my future firstborn child I'd do it but that isn't gonna happen unfortunately.

~Katie
 
Oh! please stubborn is no good in this discussion. Drtiz's snake and the snkes you posted in #1 look the same. Unless I'm blind and don't think I am. I don't get why you can't accept the fact that you didn't go about this in a scientific way and move on. While I find the concept interesting and the dicussion good, it's over. Denying what you see won't help.
 
slangenbroed said:
I ask several times what will best to bred , please help an say what to do!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Take it back to square one. Take your original "buf", which should have limited hets, and breed to a caramel with no hets. If you get all caramels or bufs...you have your answer, for the most part. 100% caramels would prove that "buf" is nothing more than an odd looking caramel. If you get 100% normals, you prove that your "buf" is something truly unique and incompatible with caramel.

The other thing that is causing you so much trouble is quite simply...we don't see anything different between a buf and a caramel. To our eyes, they are the same in appearance. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck...it's probably a duck. In other words...if you are getting "buf" in the same clutches as caramels, and they look the same...you probably have variations, not a new gene.

If "buf" was completely dissimilar to caramel in appearance, you would recieve less argument, I'm sure. But you post a picture of two babies that look similar enough to be twins, and tell us they are different traits, and one has never been discovered before. You MUST expect skepticism. And when you use poor breeding trials and bad odds to "prove" it...it exacerbates the problem...
 
PtDnsr said:
You need to breed a buff to a caramel and an orange to a caramel and that caramel shouldn't have any amel (het or homo) if possible.I have a caramelmotley witout amel in it. I wouldn't use your golddust motley because that throws ultra into the combination which could make it more confusing. I now that a had ulramel in it. Then again that could also test against ultra at the same time. Yes, it is more fun to work with more genes but it also makes it harder to figure out what you have. I would also breed to hypo which is common to show that it isn't compatible. I have a hypostriped You need to work on isolating the gene itself. I'd also breed two of the amels that were in the same clutch as oranges to see if amel x amel would give some amels and some oranges. I only have one femal het lavender from the orange x lavender breeding. That would help to test if it is separate from amel and recessive.

In general we like new genes - it gives us something else to play with. We just like to see lots of proof before we accept much. If you don't have the snakes to test breed see if some of the other breeders will help you out. Heck...if I could find a way to get them over here that wouldn't involve selling my future firstborn child I'd do it but that isn't gonna happen unfortunately.If you getting here you can have one for free( i have enough buf and orange)

~Katie
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips now we are getting somewhere without step on people
 
susang said:
Oh! please stubborn is no good in this discussion. Drtiz's snake and the snkes you posted in #1 look the same. Unless I'm blind and don't think I am. I don't get why you can't accept the fact that you didn't go about this in a scientific way and move on. While I find the concept interesting and the dicussion good, it's over. Denying what you see won't help.
Click to expand...

The first pic was made just to see the dif between and was not the best the seccond is more the true colours.) sorry but iám also a person and not perfect
 
I have been and still am pretty skeptical of buff/orange; sorry slangenbroed it would be really exciting if it were real, but I hope you understand why a new dominant (unheard of) gene that makes snakes look like your standard creamsicle and/or a caramel would be met with such skepticism. But, if it proves out, yes it will be very exciting!

I like the photos comparing amel/"orange"/butter better... I do see a distinct difference with the "buff/orange" there.

I think another important breeding trial would be an "orange" to an amel *proven not to be het for butter*. The "orange" *has to be het for orange* (not homozygous). Seeing an even mix of amel/orange babies would go a long way towards proving your claim of a dominant gene!

But, I think the most important thing you can do is find another breeder to work with who will confirm your claims. Are there no reputable breeders in your area you can loan a male or female orange/buff to in order to provide second party validation?
 
Silvergrin said:
I have been and still am pretty skeptical of buff/orange; sorry slangenbroed it would be really exciting if it were real, but I hope you understand why a new dominant (unheard of) gene that makes snakes look like your standard creamsicle and/or a caramel would be met with such skepticism. But, if it proves out, yes it will be very exciting!

I like the photos comparing amel/"orange"/butter better... I do see a distinct difference with the "buff/orange" there.

I think another important breeding trial would be an "orange" to an amel *proven not to be het for butter*. The "orange" *has to be het for orange* (not homozygous). Seeing an even mix of amel/orange babies would go a long way towards proving your claim of a dominant gene!

But, I think the most important thing you can do is find another breeder to work with who will confirm your claims. Are there no reputable breeders in your area you can loan a male or female orange/buff to in order to provide second party validation?
Click to expand...
Thank you and yes there is someone who has the only buf male adult and a orange male,but he must self posted his experiense.
 
i have sent you a PM slangenbroed, i would be perfectly happy to help you.

Please PM me a reply.
 
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