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Burnt

whippet

whippet

Tara
Has anyone here been burnt with the reptile community?
Lauren and I are so baddly burnt at this point...we are going to sell almost ALL of our collection (see ads soon) and try to get down to the very first and most beloved of our collection. It's so sad....but we feel so burnt it makes it hard to want to clean cages and handle animals. Oh we still do of course...but it feels almost like we are doing maintainence care. It's not enough for a hobby we once loved.
I think it definatly started in Daytona. To see animals in god awful condition and to see so many who didn't care.
Then to watch at shows when people try to sell illegal hots or huge snakes to minors.
To watch flippers sell sick animals and warp the mind of our youth into thinking it's okay....and have the community as a whole support that.
To see teens leaving herp shows with alligators in their hands and NO ONE says a word.
It's awful. And it's not a part of the world we want to be a part of anymore.

It also doesn't help that Lauren and I both have more hours at work and are home less and less. She got a job at a college teaching nights...and I got a promotion at work that asks for more hours. There is just not enough hours in the day. I barely go down to see the reptiles except to feed, water, and clean. No time to handle or enjoy. It has become work. That is terrible. And not fair to anyone.

It's just time. Time to get down to a core of snakes. Maybe 12 or so from the 40+ we currently have.

Has anyone else felt this way? Have you gone through it?
 
I felt burnt out with only 6. I lost WHY I love snakes with even that many. Though I love a variety - which is why I had so many, since I am not a breeder, they became less "pets" and more "maintenance" like you said.

I now have only 2 in my care - an Okeetee Corn and a California King. My daughter has our Nelson Milk. I feel much better with only the Corn and the King. I handle them more often. My frozen feeder bill is less. I simply pay more attention to them.

I also sold my racks and put them in aquariums. I like the visual aspect much better. When in a rack, they just felt like socks in a drawer until I fed or checked on them.

Best wishes with your changes. I, for one, feel much better these days with my snakes.
 
What was Daytona like? Really bad care with some vendors?

I honestly have been disappointed with the lack of education in proper reptiles care. There are so many people who feed live, feed infrequently, co-hab, don't provide heat, etc, etc ... and I have witnessed many neglected snakes first hand. Its really sad, but since reptiles are not nearly as expressive as other animals they are easier to think of as "objects". I don't even like the term "collection" for herps .... you don't collect them, you own them and you care for them! And how many old snakes have I met?? Very, very few compared to the hundreds of babies which will likely go through many homes in their lifetime. And keeping snakes in tiny sterilite tubs in a drawer with only shavings? Sure they won't die, but IMO thats not responsible care for any snake or any animal.

Anyway, vent over, but I am glad you both realize you're burnt out and need a break. There's no shame in saying 12 snakes is enough .... 40 snakes would be far, far too many for me to feel comfortable with. Three snakes in plenty at the moment, I have a life outside of my beloved pets too :) :)
 
I agree. I'm feeling like the reptile community is becoming more and more negative. If you've seen the show on Animal Planet "swamp wars".. you'll know exactly what I am talking about. As soon as I saw them showing a ball python as a burm and saying that they're going to start killing people I became very upset. Especially when they have some huge breeders on their shows. IDK. I love my reptiles, I'm not getting rid of any, but I am trying to make people realize that what they see on tv is largely a lie.
 
I will separate my reply into two because I feel that the community and the actual care are two separate things- since we are human, our dissatisfaction with one of them can reflect on the other but truthfully... you can keep snakes without being a part of the community and so forth... keep to yourself.

1- Snake keeping burnout. Yes yes yes, I definitely experienced that one...
The most prominent time was when I received around 10 baby cornsnakes, that 4 of which were supposed to become mine, and other 6 I took care of.
There's something to be said about acquiring too many new animals at once- this, to me, seems like the number one reason to feeling overwhelmed... especially if you have to care for animals that aren't even yours(at least it's like that to me).

Thing is though... I am extremely happy right now with owning 14 boas... which is more snakes than I had back when.
This is due to two main factors:

* I am deeply in-love with boas(and my girlfriend :) )... there's no way around it... something about their even temper and confidence makes the whole experience fundamentally different to me.

* The "climb" was gradual. I did not, at any point, bring more than 4 boas at once... and those 4 were babies. Usually, I brought one at a time.
I also kept trimming the collection to the animals I wanted to keep for sure- animals that I loved deeply rather than just liked and felt like holding on to...
When each and every animal is unique to you and appeals to you on the highest level... well, I can honestly say that -all- of my snakes are favorites.

I would also note that I doubt I'd be as willing to keep the same number of colubrids- they are simply more demanding... more cleaning...

2- Community burnout- for the love of GOD yes.
But again, in every group of animal keepers you have idiots who mistreat their animals... You will always have people who do things for sport and are selfish, unwilling to learn gits.
I don't consider them a part of the core community though... I consider them as temporary squatters who will either better themselves or at some point sell all of their animals.
Will animals suffer? possibly... probably... but that's just how it is with animals all over the world sadly... I don't promote that, and I try to discern whether or not a potential client is a serious keeper or not before I decide to sell an animal to him/her.

The community itself... the core breeders... I experienced struggles there too. In the online community I am often blamed from being condescending or self-absorbed. I -tend- to think it's because no matter how good my English is, I rarely practice the spoken language- so, I end up writing and using a style that would possibly benefit an essay more-so than a friendly conversation.

At the home-front, I came at a point where people knew very little about keeping snakes... yes, they had experience... but little to no English abilities so they either wrongly translated articles from abroad or didn't bother with them to begin with...
So the upstart, being me, who was educated to articulate himself in a rather formal manner in Hebrew as well, came along and started sharing information from abroad... which vexed quite a few people...
Mix that with me acquiring more and more animals that are considered unique here and well... survival instincts kick in and people feel like elimination the "competition"(I see no reason for competition in this field but nevermind that for now).
I was offered the job of administrating the most popular snake forum in the country... and when I did... well, let's say I had to e-wrestle allot.

At the end of the day though? No one is going to deny me the pleasure of owning and keeping snakes. I don't owe anyone anything... if they want to hear what I have to say- great, if not- wonderful.
I opened my own site, on that forum I opened my own sub-forum and the owner of the site agreed to my terms that I am the sole manager there- even he doesn't have the right to do anything in it.

Not speaking about how good you are or sticking up for your own self worth speaks volumes...

So... if there's competition- it exists everywhere and you have a choice whether or not you wish to be in touch with negative people.

It is not your fault that there are lousy keepers out there. In-fact, by keeping snakes yourself, you ensure that at least a few will receive the best care possible.

Find your own little spot, with the people you like and appreciate... ignore the rest of the nonsense.
 
I still love keeping snakes but I am however feeling kinda burnt with the online community, but not only the bad keepers. It's the holier than thou, do it my way or you're doing it wrong, don't you dare mention cohab or feeding live, what the heck is wrong with you why don't you keep your snakes exactly the way I do? Keepers like that- That is what I am burnt on. I will probably always still keep snakes but I feel pretty uninspired these days to go on forums and talk about them with other herp keepers. It's just easier to relate to people IRL sometimes when talking reptiles. My threads with photos and many of the other threads I start almost always go nowhere. Nothing takes the wind out of your sails quite as fast as being all excited about one of your animals and starting a thread to find nobody cares to make any comments. So lately I find just keeping to myself and enjoying interacting with my snakes makes me happier than trying to keep active online here. I'm also seeing some stagnation in the market is bringing out the nastiness of some breeders. It's slow, corns are not selling, and the survival instinct thing can make people say some pretty negative things about their competition.
There is right now a lot of drama and stuff at my workplace, and I guess I can only deal with one set of drama queens at a time without feeling like I'm losing it... But working with my snakes and handling them is therapeutic!
 
I am definitely burnt out. The economy doesn't help. I really expected that this year moving corns would not be a problem; I've resorted to basically giving away stuff to friends. Not that I lose sleep over it; giving snakes to people who are thrilled to take them is a good thing :). But when you have something (my opinion here) just a little bit different than the next guy you do tend to think there'd be SOME interest, but I'm guilty of only using one (CS.com) online avenue to sell also, so part of that is my fault. The only thing I may breed next year is my Tessera, if I feel at 2 she's strong enough to clutch safely. The TS pink project will be fun, but I' willing to bet I'll be giving those away also. I'm lucky to have friends online here to collaborate with on some really neat projects; that does help keep the head above water...

The online burnout Jen speaks of is real. Nothing takes the excitement out of your day more when you post pics, info etc that goes nowhere. When you spend a lot of time online trying to answer questions, give good unbiased opinions, and generally try to make yourself useful to the community in anyway you can, and you really feel "why am I bothering?", it is definitely time to step back.

I think a dozen corns is my goal. The TS pink project, my tessera, and some neat stuff from my buddies Jeff and Bob. But no more low end stuff, even TS based. Doesn't sell. Okeetees? nah, no interest at all; why bother touting an authentic "Heritage" line of corns when no one wants them. I think another friend in KY is interested in them tho, so him and his son may end up with a beautiful pair of breeders ;) TS morphs? nope, not breeding them again, sending the breeders to friends who can incorporate them in other projects.
 
Well, for me, an economical profit is not a part of whether or not I am burnt out.
I make sure not to spend more than I can afford to, and should I end up not selling, than I will keep what I have an be done with it.

Snakes aren't really the most solid and assured investment out there.

As for no replies... depends on the community. Over where I am, the higher end the animals are, the less replies you'll see because everyone is so narrow-eyed and they don't like saying a kind word.

It's like that everywhere and it's not unique to the herp community. *shrug*
 
At least this site has more than 22 total posts in the last 6 days. I don't know that anybody even sees pictures/posts on other herp sites...
 
Well I like this forum better than others most of the time. It's my current life situation I think that makes me see the negative stuff or even project negativity myself sometimes, and backing off is probably smart. But thanks Chris because I really thought I was the only one who felt like I have put a lot of time into the forum and starting to feel the "why do I even bother" thing. If I felt that way about the actual snakes themselves it would be time to downsize, but actually I'm still excited to breed new stuff just less inclined to share my goals/ projects to a lukewarm reception. Not about the money, but if something is special to me I want to still feel that way about it.
I still mess around on iherp a lot to keep pics and stuff, and have been putting for sale ads on ks but other than that I'm not saying there is another forum that is better than this- just online burnout in general.
 
I personally believe burnout is part of the cyclical nature of the reptile industry.

There are the hard core people who love them no matter what and have kept them for ages and plan to keep them for ages more and then there are those who got a snake and thought it was cool and then thought it was more cool to have two and then they thought they would become a breeder and so on.

Becoming the breeder and buying/selling all the different morphs out there takes time, money, and luck. Snakes are living creatures and they don't always do what they are supposed to do in a perfect breeding world. The price of such a living creature is always in flux and several factors determine its "worth" which then can cause bad blood between the different views on that "worth". Add to that the "know-it-alls" in the online world and you really can get some bad blood a brewing.

Although not as long as some, I've been working with herps since I was a kid and seriously starting working and breeding in the 90's. Reptiles are clearly a passion of mine and have occupied a great deal of my time in many areas of my life: hobby, business, professional, etc. I have been on this site since 03 and have seen MANY (yes MANY) individuals buy in and later burn out. That should increase as the hobby becomes business-ized by more people. With a hobby that has a big financial focus--one that has greatly increased over the past few decades--there will certainly be more people that view it as a business instead of a hobby. Many other hobbies are like that. Take sportscards for example. Used to be a way to get gum. Then was a way to collect sports players you liked. Sure, there were a few companies that did sportscards for money but the majority were collectors. Soon, collectors became sellers and then shows and shops sprouted. The sportscard industry exploded in the 90's and was a giant compared to its former self. Reptiles are not much different and like any other industry, when profit margins are the focus, details sometimes get overlooked, competition becomes fierce, and the market will get saturated with the product. Anyone want a slap bracelet, livestrong adornment, pog, or how about jelly shoes or maybe even a pet rock? Delegating a living creature to a fad pet or a money maker and you run the risk of burn out as there is more involved in the living creature endeavor. At least when you decide thy bracelet you are wearing is no longer cool you can put it in a rubbermaid and store it under your bed without having to provide heat, water or food.

The industry has always been a shady one in areas. Wholesalers have always had small cages and lots of WC and lots of disease and death. Ball pythons are still imported in the 1000's even though there are more CB balls now than ever before. Cheap is easy, means larger profit, and most anyone with a few bucks (or a bucket) can buy and sell. Eventually, with over saturation and over production, cheap will become free. How hard is it to find a kitten for free? A dog? How soon until reptiles become the next free living commodity? A decade? A few more years? Are we there?

Education, is that the answer? I don't know. For years I attempted to educate the audiences of the SC shows about the dangers of WC and large and/or venomous snakes. Change? Nope...about as much as any politician can bring. I would have people sit through my presentation and then go buy a WC corn anyway AND bring it to my table to ask me questions about it! Reptiles are afforded very little protection in any sense of the word...from pet ownership to living in the wild. Shoot a migratory tweety bird with a BB gun and you could face jail time. Chop the head off a snake, nada. Try to keep a squirrel in a cage and in most states you can get in trouble. Keep a native snake in a cage, most states won't bother you.

Luckily, this is starting to change. We are seeing more protections for herps and with these protections, WC native may become a thing of the past. Eventually, WC international will become a thing of the past as well, but we are not there yet. When I was younger there were a number of South/Central American, African, and Asian places that would export herps. The number of countries that allow this has declined. The pet trade is like any other trade, regulations will eventually come. They have for the big cats and many bird species. Some reptiles also have this same protection and more will be covered as more laws are passed. Unfortunately, the industry is one that most do not understand, so when laws do get passed they are often blanket laws that include all herps or laws that were created without expertise or practical herp knowledge. I.e. In Georgia I can keep a cottonmouth or burmese python but cannot keep a snow corn.

So, did I answer the question? Probably not. Did I have burn out? Not really. I would still be keeping snakes if I had not moved to Georgia. In fact, many of my critters are on loan and I have plans to reacquire them as soon as I get my lab set up. My opportunity to come to GA outweighed my desire to continue breeding cornsnakes. I miss it but the opportunities ahead of me will certainly satiate my reptile passion as I am now able to do more with reptile research and education than I could have as a breeder.

More will get burned out and more will enter the market. The cycle has been going for years.....just take a look at the Orlando/Daytona Show vendor lists of the years. Many standby's but many new names come and go.
 
Burnout can happen with any animal based hobby. Generally it's a combination of money, time, and upkeep. I've had snakes for 10 years now but before that, I bred and showed Japanese bobtail cats in CFA. If you think a frozen rodent bill is expensive, try cats. For 12 years, I showed at least 1-2 weekends a month with each show costing me about $50 at the cheap end but the majority running $250+. Combine that with breeding and trying to sell kittens which are not show/breeder quality, and you can easily spend enough to buy a new car every year. We won't even get into what it takes to convince a potential new owner why a purebred kitten is worth more than free one from an ad in the paper. I got out of breeding/showing cats about 5 years ago for the same reasons you list for snakes. I was spending 2-3 hours a day just on maintenance, the cost was prohibitive (over $10k/yr), and by the time I was done, I was too tired to spend time with the animals I loved. Luckily, even with 12 snakes, their daily care takes about 30 minutes (more on feeding days obviously) but I still have time to pick up each one and see how they are doing. 3 of them routinely help me clean the house and do homework as well.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not sure how it will be once I end up with more than one clutch a year, but I also thought long and hard about whether or not I was willing to get into it. I decided to go into this season though with the goal of focusing on one project instead of multiples and I think that will help keep numbers down and enjoyment up.

Many people have also mentioned that other breeders/hobbyists have caused them to be less in love with the hobby. To this, I have one thing to say. If you love the animals, then enjoy them. Don't let someone else discourage you from your passions. Yes, it's frustrating and yes, it can make you want to go home and never speak with other breeders/hobbyists again, but in the end, what matters is how you feel about your animals. Also remember this, if everyone who had common sense (i.e. let's not sell a retic to a 13 y/o kid) refused to go to shows or talk to new owners, people looking at keeping reptiles will only hear from those who don't care enough to teach them correctly. Teaching people about what you love falls under that 'be passionate about what you do' thing.
 
Being burnt is normal. I got burnt out on betta fish and saltwater. I don't have any at the moment. I am working on selling everything in my saltwater tank and trying to rehome the water dragon.

I am just sticking with my Cichlid tank, Rabbit, Cornsnakes, Bearded Dragons, Chickens, and rodents.
 
I think there is something wrong with me. I started with one cornsnake in 2005. Now I have 80, counting the babies and snakes here on loan. I still find feeding, weighing, photographing to be relaxing and enjoyable. Even when I do it for days and days in a row. I have the snakes broken up into groups so I only feed about 15 at a time, usually. I can do that in an hour, easily. The only things that get me down, really, are deformed or DIE babies, and hatchlings that won't eat. But that just makes me feel like not breeding, not like getting out of snakes. It's very very hard for me to part with an adult I've raised since it was a baby, even if I know it has no place in my breeding projects. Since I am at the limit of space I have, to be able to keep the snakes in the size bins I like, and also because I feel like I am at a comfortable number, time wise, it is also very difficult for a new snake to find a home here. But I still enjoy the challenge of breeding something special, and do feel responsible for keeping or finding loving homes for babies that are unsaleable due to kinks, so I have ended up adding a very small number of snakes in the last year. Just breeding two or three clutches a season, I never feel overwhelmed either with babies to feed or with babies to sell. And I am fully prepared to keep babies here as long as it takes to find new homes for them without dumping them. I _know_ how special they are, how valuable their genes are, how pampered and well-raised they are, and the market recognizes that. I like to think of them as "boutique" hatchlings, rather than mass-market. And as they mature, each is recognized as an individual, and if they end up staying until they are yearlings, well, then, I've just had so much more enjoyable time to spend with them!
 
Snakes are still my favorite animal. I will always have the 2 in my care now. I wouldn't feel like "me" without at least one snake.
 
Nanci, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. You just have a passion for snakes and treat them like they should be treated. I love my babies, but cleaning cages will never be fun for me. However, I do love feeding them and getting them out to spend time with the family. Not sure I could do it with 80 but maybe one of these days when I'm not working 40 hours and going to college full time, it will be possible. :)
I definitely agree with taking care of them until they find good homes. That's just the mark of a good breeder.
 
A lot of really good points here.
As stated, education helps, but is not going to change everyone. Some people are going to stick with the information given to them by the petstore or whoever they got the snake(s) from & even if that's feeding the snake crickets, they feel more comfortable listening to someone they've seen in person, than some people they have never met on the internet. What can you do? Not much. You can offer your assistance, & they will take it or not.
When someone says they're cohabbing two corn snakes, for example, I will try to educate them on the hazards they can face with cohabbing, but I agree with Jen, that there are some who will pitch a huge fit about cohabbing, & act like the person is a horrible person. I know people who successfully cohab pairs, year round. These are people who have years of experience. They know the risks. I do not fault them for their choices. It can be done without issues. Do I recommend it to newbies? No. But I don't think belittling them for chosing to do so is the answer.

If I can help one out of five people, I have made a difference, IMO. Even if more people do not listen to advice, I have still made a difference. I'm not going to dwell on minor details. I try to look at the big picture.

I also understand how it feels when something you are proud of doesn't get the response you had hoped it would. Sure, it takes the wind out of your sails a bit, but what's most important to me, is how I feel about my pets. What others think about them does not add or take away the value of them to me.

Tara (Tara80) & I produced the Miami Tessera's this year, & while they're not going to be considered as high valued as some higher end morph Tessera's, it doesn't matter to me, I am beyond pleased with these babies. If others prefer the higher end morphs, it's not going to change how I feel about these little guys.

I've learned the hard way that some people in this community are less than honorable, but it's the honorable ones that keep me here. I have made some wonderful friends in this community, & I have learned alot. I just focus on the ones that matter to me, & ignore those that are prone to causing drama.

Nanci, there's nothing wrong with you. I understand what you mean. I love the time I spend in the snake room, interacting with them, the "work" of cleaning & feeding is just part of the package. No one else can take away from that.
 
I don't know why you'd say Miami Ts are not as highly valued! They are amazing in the first generation and will only get better!! I think it will benefit the Tessera morph to become "common" and affordable; this will only increase their popularity.
 
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