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Burnt

I just meant that that they don't come with the same price tag as some of the higher end morphs, but they are highly valuable to me! :) But then, Miami's are one of my favorites. It wouldn't matter to me if no one wanted Miami Tessera's, I love them & creating them is one of the things that gives me the satisfaction & the joy of breeding. Of course I love to see others enjoy them as much as I do, & I think that's partly why I really enjoyed that my first breeding season was a co-breeding, with Tara, because I know she's just as excited about the babies as I am. It will be fun to continue to work with her, & others, in planning out future breeding projects.

I pick my snakes based on how much I like them, not the dollar value. I also focus on what I like, to decide what I want to breed, not based on what I think will be most popular.

I guess my main point in my round-about (rambling) way, was that if your snakes are important to you, that's all that matters. Do not let others affect your joy of keeping these fabulous creatures.

(Thank you, the first generation turned out better than we expected, & we are both super excited for the next generation!) :)
 
I still love keeping snakes but I am however feeling kinda burnt with the online community, but not only the bad keepers. It's the holier than thou, do it my way or you're doing it wrong, don't you dare mention cohab or feeding live, what the heck is wrong with you why don't you keep your snakes exactly the way I do?

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I honestly feel that's my main issue with this particular forum... don't get me wrong, I've met some VERY cool folks on here, and have learned a lot about corns! But I'm literally afraid to post about certain topics, or even to mention the fact that my BPs eat live - or people will act like I'm a terrible owner, despite the fact that a HUGE percentage of BP keepers (including some of the most respected in the US) feed their snakes live prey. I've had that debate on here before, so I won't get into it again, but I really wish people would back off on that.

All snakes are different, all keepers are different, and that doesn't mean one is better than another. I take excellent care of my snakes, and it's highly offensive when somebody makes a comment like what calift said... implying that anyone who feeds live, or keeps their snakes in simple setups, is somehow a horrible owner. I don't encounter that attitude on my other snake forums, so it does seem to be a CS.com thing in particular. And while I've enjoyed some of my interactions here, it's the main reason I'm not a more regular participant.

That being said, I do sometimes feel overwhelmed with my current collection, but at the same time I couldn't bear to part with them. I love my snakes dearly, and hatching out a beautiful clutch (like I did this week) makes it all worthwhile. :) Maybe I'll thin out the herd at some point, but for now I still find enough enjoyment to keep on truckin'.
 
I believe the standard level for reptile care is very low in general, I'm not applying this directly to members of this forum (or Lolo for that matter). The fact that people are on these boards does show they care.

I have encountered owners from many other sources - from reptile expos, local shows, herp clubs, (the notorious) craigslist, and through personal friends and colleagues (naturalist/biologists). That is what I based my original response on.
 
I believe the standard level for reptile care is very low in general, I'm not applying this directly to members of this forum (or Lolo for that matter). The fact that people are on these boards does show they care.

I have encountered owners from many other sources - from reptile expos, local shows, herp clubs, (the notorious) craigslist, and through personal friends and colleagues (naturalist/biologists). That is what I based my original response on.

I get that, and agree some people don't care for their snakes properly... but when you use blanket statements like "people feed live, co-hab, etc," it comes across like you condemn anyone who follows those practices. We all have opinions on the best way to keep snakes, and a few are obvious - for example I agree co-habbing isn't smart, but then again I know experienced keepers who do that properly & without issues. Anyway, I think it's kinda like raising children, where there can be many ways to do it right. ;)
 
I am not sure what the expectation is though...
There are controversies around almost every single topic out there and some people are simply loud at expressing just how they oppose anything that is different from their point of view...

Leave snakes- what about how to raise a child?, Religion? Or of course, my favorite- Israel in the Middle East... talk about opening a can of worms... Not a place I'll go to without receiving -some- degree of criticism if I open a debate about it(some of which from people who have never and will never be here).

Simply avoid topics that you are not interested in receiving criticism about. Humanity as a whole is a bit flawed- there's a tendency to be overly loud with our opinions.
And even when disagreeing there are better ways to point that out, in a civilized manner than condemning.

But honestly... no human being is blameless on this account and so... just be picky regarding what you wish to discuss... if you wish to open a debate, be ready to "withstand" all replies.

The moment I stopped seeking affirmations from back home on what and why I did with my animals, people started recognizing that there my be a grain of truth in it.

The fact that some people are eager to criticize you doesn't make them right. There are allot of people who make mistakes and promote wrong ideas all the time... the effect of this is just as powerful as you allow it to be.

Opinions that you do not wish to fight over- post in a blog, or some other format that will prevent people from sharing their criticism... that's what I did and still do in many cases.

Personally, I feel no need to convince everyone of how right I am- they can take it or leave it... and that's the more sane way I found to handle things...
Even if you post that you help starving children, someone out there will say that you're doing it for personal interests.
 
Oh, I know Kokopelli! I've been on forums for a LONG time, basically since they were first invented (think Prodigy message boards) - so I know the game, and to stay out of any discussion I'm not ready to debate. Again, that's why I don't post too often on here, except to share photos of my snakes.

There are some subjects I'm happy to debate tooth & nail (like politics and social issues), which I do on another forum I used to moderate... but when it comes to raising pets, it's just not worth arguing over whose method is "best." I know my animals are happy, healthy & well cared-for, so nobody else needs to interfere in how I'm raising them. Know what I mean?
 
Dunno. I never had to ward off criticism about how I keep my animals... at least not here/other US forums.
The local forum I moderate... sure, but the underlying reason was always feeble "competition".
 
Dunno. I never had to ward off criticism about how I keep my animals... at least not here/other US forums.

Me either, aside from the live feeding thing... this is a hypothetical discussion, in case I wasn't clear on that. ;)
 
Oh, but I do see other people being criticized on here - sometimes with good reason, other times not so much.
 
Heather, I too know a few evil cohabbers and live feeders who take excellent care of their snakes, but they won't go on forums saying so. I feed live to some of mine that won't take f/t also- horrors!
I feel exactly the same way you do about your Miami Tessera, about the Poss Cinderghost I hatched this year. Heck I take that snake out and look at him every day except when he is digesting. I think he is a world's first. Because he was the product of snakes with hets I wasn't sure of, I am forced to wait until some proving trials to be able to say he is for sure. Still nobody is going to take away from me that I hatched the possible world's first cinder ghost but it makes sense to stay away from the "wet blankets" and naysayers to still feel excited. He's eating great and growing strong.
To reiterate, I am still in love with this hobby- just not with its online manifestation. I spend most of my free time in the snake room to the detriment of house cleaning, yard work, and having a life in many other departments. It makes me sad to see people burnt to the point of getting rid of their snakes, but I understand completely when I see people do it.
I've been wanting to get a horse for 2 years now and I have a place with enough room and a little barn. I can foresee that the day I am able to fulfill this dream, I might not want to spend as much time with snakes as I do now, but meanwhile they are still enjoyable to me and I don't feel burnt with them, just with the online scene ... lol
 
I am really surprised, and sorry, to see how many people are burned out...

on the herp community. I have read this thread with great interest, and have to put in my 2 cents (more like 200 cents - long as always - sorry!).

I am not surprised that many have been burned out, at one time or another, by having too many animals (whether reptiles, tropical fish, horses, or any other animal(s) requiring a lot of time and effort). It seems to be human nature to find something interesting, and figure that if a little is interesting, then A LOT will be pure heaven! Most of us who keep animals for a long time will sooner or later get in over our heads, especially if we have full time jobs, kids to raise, or a lot of other responsibilities. Few have the self knowledge and self discipline to ALWAYS refrain from just adding "one more". So I always admire those who finally say "enough"! And then they cut back to whatever they can handle and still ENJOY. I was feeling burned out myself the last few years, and have cut back considerably now. And now I am enjoying the animals much more than the past few years.

So I feel it is somewhat normal to go through these phases of self discovery about what is too much compared to what is enjoyable. The part that bothers me more is that so many are burned out on the herp community. I have always enjoyed the people aspect just as much as the actual animals. I kept reptiles back before there was a very established herp community, and certainly before the Internet. Back then, we isolated herpers got super excited every time we discovered somebody with like interests!

I may have more tolerance than some because of the huge changes I have seen since I got my first garter snake as a kid, back in the mid '60s. I belonged to the herp society in Milwaukee, Wi, back in the late '60s and early '70s - that was the first experience I had with the herp community, such as it was back then.

In the '70s I had a traveling reptile exhibit that set up in shopping malls all over the US. We tried to do our part to educate the pet shops in those malls - they were the nexus of herp keeper meeting places back then. If you think the quality of care is low now, it is a good thing you weren't around back then! And if you joined the community since the Internet, you can't possibly have the life experience feel for how far herp keeping has come since the "old days" (even if you read about it), and how exciting it was to discover that you were NOT alone in your "weirdness", lol! Even those who seemed to have a different type of weirdness than I did (like croc or venomous keepers, maybe?) were valued because there were so few of us. And back then, nobody that I met EVER heard of the idea that a snake might eat a frozen, thawed rodent instead of a live one. Many people kept multiple animals together as a matter of course. There may still be too many wild caught animals imported today, but back then, ALL reptile pets were wild caught. And nobody bred anything on purpose - babies were generally a lucky accident.

Many newer keepers / breeders see what is considered "normal" now, and don't realize how far we have come. Without the background of what was, it is very easy to condemn those who are stuck in a "time warp" and haven't advanced to what is considered best management practice these days. I guess I look through different colored glasses than some of the newer arrivals to the scene. I tend to notice that HUGE numbers of people these days keep healthy, breeding reptiles that were only dreamed about back in the '70s and '80s, when we mainly hoped to be able to keep our wild caught captives healthy enough to enjoy them for a few years before they died. Breeding them on a regular basis was a fantasy that we all worked to turn into a reality, and now it has happened to a huge degree. I am very grateful to the herp community for that. There is still MUCH room for improvement - but that will always be the case, no matter how much we improve from today onwards.

If I now see somebody who still keeps a pile of wild caught animals in much the same way as we did in the old days, I feel sorry for them, but feel gratitude that they are no longer the norm, but an aberration. And when I see a relative newcomer condemning somebody for something that would have been perfectly normal procedure just a few years (or a couple of decades) ago, then I feel sorry for THAT person for not appreciating all the advancements we have enjoyed in a relatively short time. AND I feel gratitude that they are an aberration, not the majority.

I do become annoyed with people on occasion. But I try to temper it with the knowledge that we are all at different levels on our life journey, whether it involves herps or any other aspect of our lives. I feel I am very confident and advanced in some areas of my life, while remaining very childish and not at all competent in other areas of my life. And I assume that it is the same for everyone else. I find that this perspective allows me to enjoy those who seem to be on what I feel is the right wavelength (whether beginner or advanced) to enjoy their company on my journey, or to have some pity and tolerance for those who seem to be stuck at a more juvenile level in some aspect of their lives - hoping in turn for the same treatment from others in my own areas of incompetence. It is a little difficult to explain this philosophy without making it sound kind of "pollyannish". But it ties in with my feeling of a sort of cosmic karma, and it allows me to enjoy a greater diversity of people than I might otherwise enjoy. AND it allows me to participate in the herp community without getting burned out, lol! I feel that comparing where the herp community WAS a few decades ago to now, and realizing that it was a very small and very dedicated group then, compared to a huge, more mainstream group that includes many who only wish to keep a couple of pets now, allows a perspective to be grateful for all that has transpired, and tolerant of those who have yet to change with the times.

Although I guess I should sadly mention that the one thing that is starting to burn me out is the constant barrage of attacks from the animal rights groups and government. The people with authority to ban what I love may ultimately succeed in my burnout, after thousands of herpers, good and bad, could not do it. "1984" may be late in coming, but it may be the death of my enthusiasm yet - we shall see what happens.
 
As usual, very well put, Kathy. Please don't EVER apologize for the number of times you offer your input! I, for one, really appreciate you & what you have to offer.
You never fail to give a perspective that some/many don't consider, including myself sometimes.
 
I agree. Kathy, we are so lucky to have you and your valued advice. I know sometimes I personally need (and cherish) a different perspective/angle from what is MY norm.

You can't inform EVERYONE but ever single person you can *kindly* help out makes a difference (quotations meaning don't over power others with what YOU feel is right... because it's not always right ;) ).

Heather's first post says everything for me in how I feel about this industry and I'm here for my enjoyment, not someone elses and not to control what others think. If I can help stop something that is clearly wrong, then I will most certainly do so and hope that maybe, it made a difference. But I'm also an advocate of doing this using tact and kindness and taking into consideration the person(s) involved.
 
"...I'm also an advocate of doing this using tact and kindness and taking into consideration the person(s) involved..."

Yes, in my opinion, tact and kindness are the keys. Remember the old saying about getting more flies with honey than vinegar? I always believed in that. Why waste my breath (or fingers, if typing) to get my message across if it isn't likely to be absorbed because of the manner in which it is presented?
 
I try to only have 4 at a time. (not counting after breeding, so 4 permenant residents) It's really hard though ^^.
 
This is quite a thread and really happy with some of replies and always Kathy someone to be looked up to at pioneering are corn hobby it is today. While My head runs a mile a minute I don't really relay it well in good format. I am not on the side of do it my way or the high way but I believe that at times many people are just way misinformed on the animal that they own and at least here you can be told better proper ways of caring. And jumping around Something I do feel strongly as (the Excitement of finding another enthuiast). We all wanna fit in some place and a educated reptile conservation is to die for and beats the "I Dont Care' "Its Slimey" "Well I killed it"
 
As someone new to keeping snakes,I have been reading alot about burn out with reptiles & this makes me sad. I never owned a snake until earlier this year~ because of my mother in law living with me who had a phobia about snakes,I only could sit outside & watch all of the snakes in my pond & take their pictures for years,I would be out there for hours...I was SO excited to be able to get snakes when they moved out--to be able to hold & care for the animals I have so fallen in love with! My husband feels the same way,so it's a passion we share ---After reading about so many people getting tired of reptiles after a while it has kind of curbed my enthusiasm about joining in the reptile community.But I am still 100% thrilled with owning snakes & everyone who comes to our house loves our snake room & says how relaxing it is--we love to get our babies out & hold them--I think the best part of owning multiple snakes is when one is 'in blue' or just ate there are others we can hold! :) We are very selective about the snakes we get--never too many to be able to afford feeding them..& never so many we can't hold them on a regular basis. Jen-- I will go on the forum admitting to cohabbing when the snakes are sisters & never seperated before-we keep them seperate for a while after feeding during the 'feeding frenzy'-but yeah,they live together--I have also fed live to the rescue ball python we got before MegF. suggested almost boiling water for the F/T...I hope I never get burnt out with snakes--just the thought of that makes me sad
 
As someone new to keeping snakes,I have been reading alot about burn out with reptiles & this makes me sad. I never owned a snake until earlier this year~ because of my mother in law living with me who had a phobia about snakes,I only could sit outside & watch all of the snakes in my pond & take their pictures for years,I would be out there for hours...I was SO excited to be able to get snakes when they moved out--to be able to hold & care for the animals I have so fallen in love with! My husband feels the same way,so it's a passion we share ---After reading about so many people getting tired of reptiles after a while it has kind of curbed my enthusiasm about joining in the reptile community.But I am still 100% thrilled with owning snakes & everyone who comes to our house loves our snake room & says how relaxing it is--we love to get our babies out & hold them--I think the best part of owning multiple snakes is when one is 'in blue' or just ate there are others we can hold! :) We are very selective about the snakes we get--never too many to be able to afford feeding them..& never so many we can't hold them on a regular basis. Jen-- I will go on the forum admitting to cohabbing when the snakes are sisters & never seperated before-we keep them seperate for a while after feeding during the 'feeding frenzy'-but yeah,they live together--I have also fed live to the rescue ball python we got before MegF. suggested almost boiling water for the F/T...I hope I never get burnt out with snakes--just the thought of that makes me sad
Don't let someone else's poor view on the community affect your desire to be part of a wonderful support group. Look at all of the great people on here that have so much to offer, including Kathy Love!

Someone mentioned that there will people in any "community" that can put a downer on things. But if you focus on the ones that offer positive insight, support & helpful information, it will be a huge benefit to you (collective you, not just you, Motley Medusa) :)

There are people here from various parts of the world & many of which have been a positive influnce on me for one reason or another.

As also mentioned, burnout is something that can happen wiht a variety of animals, or things that don't even pertain to animals. The key is find the number that best suits you, that you can handle without feeling overwhelmed, & enjoy them for what they are. Wonderful little (sometimes big) creatures that are each unique.
 
Yeah,I try to focus on the positive people I have seen on here & other forums, valuable information & of course,love the pictures! :) I think those who get burnt out not at the community,but with the actual animals have just learned that yes,sometimes there can be too much of a good thing.
 
Yeah,I try to focus on the positive people I have seen on here & other forums, valuable information & of course,love the pictures! :) I think those who get burnt out not at the community,but with the actual animals have just learned that yes,sometimes there can be too much of a good thing.

That's good to hear. :)

Maybe it's just me, but I cannot see how a negative view of some people in the community would ever affect my love for my animals. My love for them is not affected by my opinion of others. They (my animals) are a huge part of my life, & I would not be the same without them.
My animals are my stress relief, even interacting them while cleaning cages is theraputic.

I can understand some getting to the point where they have too many to care for, & they need to rehome some. Life happens, & sometimes you have to make hard decisions, but for the better.

I cannot imagine walking away from this community, I have made too many friends here. Even if I did, that in itself would not be a factor for losing interest in my animals.

You (colleectively) have to do, what you have to do, in the best interest of you & your animals.

I am very glad I found this forum. It is a wealth of information, support & some wonderful people that are now my friends.
 
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