Chat room - listen up, please

[hana]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CARattler40 again.

you betcha...

 

[Drizzt80]

Beats the heck out of me. :shrugs:

And you miss the point of the question . . . Where does HIS language and behavior excuse YOU (or anyone else) from behaving badly? My question has nothing to do with any consequences (or lack thereof). This question really lends itself to many different types of situations. Does it make it alright for you to steal a candy bar at the store if the guy next to you (or a store employee) took one? etc. etc. etc. Wrong/Negative behavior is wrong/negative behavior regardless of the situation.

You did point out that Joe_Jo got no warnings over at Fauna for his chat room behavior. Good job on that!

The other thing from your post that is important is that many of the words he used, if placed in a 'booting script' (if such a thing exists), would have solved the problem of Joe_Jo pretty quickly and efficiently. With all the advances in technology there should be a fairly simple solution to this kind of thing.

D80

 

[jzal8]

With all the advances in technology there should be a fairly simple solution to this kind of thing.

The most common phrase heard from a software user's lips; the subject of a majority of my nightmares.

There no doubt is a solution. Chances are, it is anything but simple.

 

[jazzgeek]

The most common phrase heard from a software user's lips; the subject of a majority of my nightmares.

I thought it was, "But we've been doing it this way all along."

But yeah, I'm right there with ya.

regards,
jazz

 

[Rich Z]

It's a cornsnake chatroom---why would we be interested in chatting about blood pythons? Isn't there a boa/boid chatroom that YOU made after WE complained about the inflitration of people coming in to talk about boas and pythons? Why can't people from Fauna use the appropriate rooms?

So what? Just because it is labeled a "CornSnake Chat Room" means that no other type of topic matter is allowed? Well, the times I have logged into the chat, topic matter was ALL over the map. Just as it would happen in any situation where two or more people are engaged in a conversation. Quite honestly, I believe some of the problems have resulted from one or more people arbitrarily chosing what THEY felt should be discussed, and then beat someone over the head with that "decision" made. Then when the person became irritated at being treated that way, the fur began to fly.

Just so it is spelled out plainly here NO ONE has the right to tell someone else what they may speak about in the chat rooms. They have every bit as much right as YOU do to be there and speak about what they would like to. The TOPIC matter really does not matter. Its the MANNER in which the person discusses ANYTHING that is at issue here.

And if we're not using the chat room---clearly Fauna isn't either. We have used that chat room 10 fold what Fauna does---so what good does it do taking it off CS.com and leaving it on Fauna---where it doesn't get used? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

That is because you have not read closely what I said I was considering doing. I didn't say that at all.....

Anyway, it got so out of hand because our single moderator wasn't in the chat room enough during the day and night to combat the problem. During peak times it wasn't uncommon to get 20 people in chat on a given night---and we always had trolls---every night. When Connie wasn't there a lot of times we packed bags and created our own rooms so we could be a moderator and kick them out. Clearly, that's what we should have done from the beginning.

And the "problem" from what I can see is that a couple of people are upset because there is no "CornSnake Discussions ONLY" sign on the door. Do you REALLY want me to do that? Be careful about what you wish for. Because I seriously doubt ANYONE here has kept their discussion while in that chat room completely and totally 100 percent about corn snakes. And I seriously doubt anyone would want that sort of strictness enforced there.

I'm not trying to tell Rich how to run his site. I just wanted to give him one users perspective before he made his decision. It seemed that Rich had the idea that people left because they were told not to behave inappropriately. I don't think that was the case at all and speaking for myself, I KNOW that wasn't the case.

Although it may have not been the case in your situation, quite honestly I disagree with your assessment of several other people involved. Read this thread from beginning to end and note the people who said THIS thread ruined the chat room for them. Now why is that? Another way of looking at it, had I not started this thread, do you THINK those people who left would have done so anyway? Personally, I don't think so. Trolling is not appropriate nor appreciated anywhere. But in many instances, I would bet that the person targeted as a troll was labelled as such AFTER they were slammed a time or two with a "GTFO, this is a CORN SNAKE room" message from someone. That is the sort of behavior I am saying is NOT appropriate. It quite likely leaves the distinct impression with someone who got bashed for having the audacity to go into that CORN SNAKE chat room looking for someone to chat with, that corn snake "people" are elitist, snobbish, rude arseholes. And quite honestly, I don't want THIS site, nor me in my association with it, labelled in such a manner.

And you miss the point of the question . . . Where does HIS language and behavior excuse YOU (or anyone else) from behaving badly? My question has nothing to do with any consequences (or lack thereof). This question really lends itself to many different types of situations. Does it make it alright for you to steal a candy bar at the store if the guy next to you (or a store employee) took one? etc. etc. etc. Wrong/Negative behavior is wrong/negative behavior regardless of the situation.

You did point out that Joe_Jo got no warnings over at Fauna for his chat room behavior. Good job on that!

Sometimes I get placed in the position that if I were to ban one person for their use of inappropriate language and mannerisms, I have to ban EVERYONE who acted in like kind. Often when placed in such a position, the BEST thing to do is to do nothing. Imagine for a moment if I HAD banned everyone who took part in that verbal mud wrestling event.........

The other thing from your post that is important is that many of the words he used, if placed in a 'booting script' (if such a thing exists), would have solved the problem of Joe_Jo pretty quickly and efficiently. With all the advances in technology there should be a fairly simple solution to this kind of thing.

D80

I seriously doubt the program has that facility programmed in. For one thing, it would be extremely burdensome on the server to have to parse every word in every sentence against a list of trigger words. And how many people would get really PISSED if they got banned for typing in "Ouch! I pricked my finger on that cactus!" because "prick" was on the banned list? Targeted word lists NEVER work because people will simply bypass them with cute things like "pr!ck" or something similar. And there is just no way to program all possible alterations of verboten words.

Again, I don't see that the majority disagree with that rule. The point I've been trying to get through over and over and it just doesn't seem to sink in, most people didn't leave because of this post repremanding inexcusable behavior. It was an ugly reaction that needed to be seriously addressed, but it was only part of the problem and not a total fix. If the chatroom is going to be a pleasant place with large numbers, people need to follow the rules AND more provisions need to be in place to protect those following the rules from those who don't.
It's like taking a decongestant while you have the flu. Sure it helps because it gives you relief from an unpleasant symptom, but it's not a total cure.
So we got the runny nose taken care of, so let's stop dwelling on it. I honestly believe that people left because there just weren't enough mods to keep it a pleasant place. And I am certainly starting to see the frustration that people still think this is about defending negative behavior. So I'll put it more simply:
1. The behavior was unacceptable. It needed to be addressed and was.
2. There was a troll problem before and after the fact and the only thing that cured it was a drop in numbers.
It's as if we are on a broken record and we keep going back to # 1 over and over and over. I tried my best to move the discussion to problem # 2. However, this is a forum for people to discuss what they want so have fun with # 1. I'll go find a thread that's a little more progressive to suit my tastes.

Again, I disagree. If I had not made this thread and laid down the "law", do you really think those people would have left anyway? I seriously doubt it. In my opinion, at least some of those people left because I flatly stated that THEIR behavior, in my opinion, was just as bad as the people they were complaining about. And in some instances, apparently initiated the conflict whereby someone BECAME a troll. In other words, their branding someone who innocently wandered into the CORN SNAKE chat room looking for someone to chat about a DIFFERENT topic of interest as a TROLL, became a self fullfilling prophesy. The attitude of the reception they received TURNED them into something they probably would NOT have become otherwise.

2. There was a troll problem before and after the fact and the only thing that cured it was a drop in numbers.

Not necessarily. It may well be that certain people who proved to be a catalyst for CREATING troll-like behavior from visitors are now gone. I truly believe that some people took it upon themselves to try to act that the CORN SNAKE chat room was their own personal domain and they acted in a method pretty much guaranteed to make visitors feel unwelcomed to the point where it bred hostility and resentment. And yes, some people treated as such WILL come back just to aggravate someone who pissed them off. Especially once they learn what your hot buttons are that get you worked up. Without a doubt, normal people CAN be changed into trolls simply by how you treat them.

 

[carol]

Although it may have not been the case in your situation, quite honestly I disagree with your assessment of several other people involved. Read this thread from beginning to end and note the people who said THIS thread ruined the chat room for them.

I'm not denying that there may have been a few that feel that way, but I still don't think it was the majority. So how many suspects do you have that fit the above category? I tried to go back and count. I got 4, maybe 5. Chat used to have a good 20-25 people easily on a good night. So why did the other 15-20 people go? I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know for sure, but I was one of those 15-20 so all I could give you was my perspective.:shrugs:
Trolling did continue when there were large numbers in the room, even when people behaved appropriately.

 

[mbdorfer]

I truly believe that some people took it upon themselves to try to act that the CORN SNAKE chat room was their own personal domain and they acted in a method pretty much guaranteed to make visitors feel unwelcomed to the point where it bred hostility and resentment.

Quite possibly the most factual statement in this whole thread. Although I must admit that the few times I was in there, I joined in on the "non corn chat" bashing :argue:

 

[Roy Munson]

Read this thread from beginning to end and note the people who said THIS thread ruined the chat room for them.

I guess I'm one of the people who said that, but I should have done a better job of stating my opinion. I felt that this thread AS A WHOLE killed chat; I didn't mean to imply that your original post, or your subsequent posts were solely responsible. Members reactions to each other in this thread were damaging as well. Do I think that you could have done a better or less incendiary job of laying down the law? Yeah, I guess so, but you're a snake-breeder and webmaster, not a psychologist or diplomat. So I can't blame you for it. You did what you felt you had to do, and after thinking more about it, I guess I agree that SOMETHING had to be done. And in the end, maybe this thread wasn't such a bad thing. People got to blow off a little steam, and we got some insights into each others' expectations and viewpoints.

I was wrong anyway. This thread didn't kill chat, because chat isn't dead. I've been in there a few times lately, and it's coming back. I've even seen some people in there who I didn't expect to see there again.
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Brent (Drizz): I meant to apologize earlier for the harshness of my reply to you a few pages back. I didn't mean it to read so specifically to you personally, but it sure looks like I wrote it that way. I know from your replies afterward that you aren't pissed at me, but I still feel like I owe you an apology. Sorry about that. -Dean

 

[Drizzt80]

Brent (Drizz): I meant to apologize earlier for the harshness of my reply to you a few pages back. I didn't mean it to read so specifically to you personally, but it sure looks like I wrote it that way. I know from your replies afterward that you aren't pissed at me, but I still feel like I owe you an apology. Sorry about that. -Dean

Not a problem. Your words are the biggest indication of why I wasn't angry with you. I realize this is just a discussion about a situation that needs to be fixed. We can always agree to disagree, or clarify our sides further, either way, you're a standup guy when it comes to discussions like this.

D80

 

[Rich Z]

I'm not denying that there may have been a few that feel that way, but I still don't think it was the majority. So how many suspects do you have that fit the above category? I tried to go back and count. I got 4, maybe 5. Chat used to have a good 20-25 people easily on a good night. So why did the other 15-20 people go? I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know for sure, but I was one of those 15-20 so all I could give you was my perspective.:shrugs:
Trolling did continue when there were large numbers in the room, even when people behaved appropriately.

I would bet BIG money that some of the people incensed over what I have stated in this thread contacted others whom they conversed with in the chat room here, and in effect said something like "Hey XXX, screw Rich and his chat room. We've got a better chat room ->here<- for you to come to."

So that is what happened to the "other 15-20 people". It is highly unlikely that they all spontaneously found another chat room through psychic abilities inherent in each of them.

 

[CornCrazy]

I will admit that I am a member of this "other" chat room, but I am also still a member here. I honestly haven't had much time to be in either room. I simply have too much going on with "real life" lately. When things calm down a bit, I hope to be in chat more regularly again.

 

[Roy Munson]

I would bet BIG money that some of the people incensed over what I have stated in this thread contacted others whom they conversed with in the chat room here, and in effect said something like "Hey XXX, screw Rich and his chat room. We've got a better chat room ->here<- for you to come to."

So that is what happened to the "other 15-20 people". It is highly unlikely that they all spontaneously found another chat room through psychic abilities inherent in each of them.

I'm not going to say this kind of thing never happened. I honestly don't know. But it didn't happen that way for me. I went into this site's chat area one night, and asked where everyone had been. A member who hasn't posted in this thread, and whom I don't think cares much about any of this, directed me via chat PM to an area where some of the "regulars" were chatting. I went to that room a few times, and if there wasn't any "screw Rich" sentiment as far as I could detect. It just seemed that people were honestly relieved to hang out in a Fauna-troll-free-zone. I'm not anti-Fauna-- heck, I'm not always anti-troll-- so I don't have much to say about that.

I just wanted to clarify that the "15-20" may not have all been of a "screw Rich" mind. I know I wasn't.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I would bet BIG money that some of the people incensed over what I have stated in this thread contacted others whom they conversed with in the chat room here, and in effect said something like "Hey XXX, screw Rich and his chat room. We've got a better chat room ->here<- for you to come to."

So that is what happened to the "other 15-20 people". It is highly unlikely that they all spontaneously found another chat room through psychic abilities inherent in each of them.

Well all I have to say about that is, nobody has contacted me to say 'Hey come to the other chat room over here' but then again I'm an occasional visitor and no regular in there so :shrugs:
If this theory is true and people really did conspire to go elsewhere, with that attitude would you really want them back anyway? I guess I will just have to have mixed feelings because some of the more knowledgeable people who gave really good advice would be missed but if they are going to let a few trolls and a reprimand from Rich (whose room it is) drive them away that just kinda seems like overreacting. Is it really so hard to admit we were a bit infantile, we sank to the trolls' level and it was wrong? Funny at the time but still wrong.

 

[Roy Munson]

If this theory is true and people really did conspire to go elsewhere, with that attitude would you really want them back anyway?

That's a harsh way of putting it, and "conspire" is a strong word. If the goal of the "conspiracy" was to hurt Rich, then I'm with you. But if the goal was to avoid having to combat trolls, then I can't say that this was a heinous transgression... :shrugs:

 

[Joejr14]

I would bet BIG money that some of the people incensed over what I have stated in this thread contacted others whom they conversed with in the chat room here, and in effect said something like "Hey XXX, screw Rich and his chat room. We've got a better chat room ->here<- for you to come to."

LOL, Yeah. That's exactly what happened, Rich.

Has this not been explained enough?

 

[gwb8568]

a little help please................

.......... :-offtopic i have never had to use the "ignore" feauture before, whether it be dealing with a person or a particular thread. but could someone follow me through the steps in how to "ignore" this thread so it will not come up in either "user cp" or "new posts", as this thing is

 

[Joejr14]

You can only ignore users, not threads. Sorry.

 

[Rich Z]

LOL, Yeah. That's exactly what happened, Rich.

Has this not been explained enough?

I call them as I see them, Joe. And I have learned from experience to believe what I see and not what someone tells me.

Personally, I really don't care either way. I stated plainly that I can use this chat system elsewhere. I put it here because people asked for it and apparently wanted it here. Members here can either use it or not. If it is the "not", then that's just the way it is and I will deal with it. As for the "why" some are trying hard to campaign for, please read the paragraph preceding this one.....

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Taceas]

I would bet BIG money that some of the people incensed over what I have stated in this thread contacted others whom they conversed with in the chat room here, and in effect said something like "Hey XXX, screw Rich and his chat room. We've got a better chat room ->here<- for you to come to."

So that is what happened to the "other 15-20 people". It is highly unlikely that they all spontaneously found another chat room through psychic abilities inherent in each of them.

And you would lose BIG money.

We're not that petty, and in the beginning it wasn't about you, as much as you would like to think.

The reason those 15-20 people (myself included) left was about having a chat environment here that was friendly to trouble makers, or so it would seem, nothing more. We left to be able to chat in peace, without the threat of rude disruptions. That's it.

I don't care where I chat with other people, so long as the bad stuff is kept out and the problem people dealt with.

It's not some soap-opera scandal or evil plot, most everyone is invited. We never talked about it in your chat room, at least I didn't nor did I see it ever being discussed while there. Although based on the fact that we don't advertise its existence, it's been word of mouth only so that might seem "cliquish" to you.

Although I find the 15-20 people thing mildly humorous. Those 15-20 people were the only people to utilize your chat with clockwork regularity. I liken it to Cheers, the tv-show. If you get rid of all of the people in the bar, you don't have a show anymore. We didn't go there to discuss alcohol because it was in a bar, we discussed other things most of the time. But because we were in Cornsnakes, that was what we had most in common.

When I've done a wrong, I expect to be punished accordingly, I'm not denying that. But when you yelled at us and didn't say diddly to the real people causing the real problems...that's what pushed it over the line for me. No one ever said our behaviour was acceptable, we all knew it was wrong. I could have even edited the chat logs I forwarded to you so that only the bad things being said were by the ones being the problem, but I'm not dishonest either.

But when you ask for help and it never comes, you can only fight fire so long by waving your hand at it. So we took matters into our own hands, a few _CS people turned the tables on the problem people from Fauna and yelled at them and mocked them (that was deemed bad by you) or we created a private room where we could remove their disruption (also deemed bad by you). So it's a Catch 22. Either sit there and watch half of an asinine conversation and lash out, or peacefully create another room where we can continue our conversations (corn related or not) and be able to police ourselves. You've always said that the forum hasn't needed Moderators yet because we've been good about policing ourselves. Well that's precisely what we've done in chat, and all of a sudden its wrong? So we leave and participate in a friendly chat elsewhere, and now that's wrong too. Damn, just can't win.

And like has been stated repeatedly, trolls feed off of attention. There's no way you're going to get 10+ people to simultaneously ignore a troll, it'd be nice if you could. Some of those 10+ people similarly feed off of harassing a troll, so they're not going to ignore them because it's too much fun.

I don't care if people from Fauna want to come in and talk, many have done so in the past and were welcomed into the conversation. But those rare people differ in that they didn't automatically assume they were the center of the universe and that all future conversations revolved around them. I don't mind talking about Boas, I just bought one a month ago. I don't mind talking about Ball Pythons, I own one. But I do not appreciate someone coming in and demanding I answer their questions so rudely. No normal person does that, night after night. If I had a question about a box turtle I found, I'd join a room that had people in it that might know how to help...I'd exchange pleasantries, get a feel for the room, participate in the conversation being talked about, and when I felt a lull, I'd politely ask if anyone could help me. I think MOST people would do that.

On to the contributor thing, I paid my hard earned money repeatedly to help support a site I am addicted to. Also for its day-to-day running and future improvements, not for special rewards or treatments (look back, I have not once participated in your Insider Deals). I pay because I love this place and would like to see it stick around.

But I'd like to think that because I've ante'd up several years in a row that that would bring along with it a mutual respect to at least listen to what I have to say over someone who's just a fly-by-night poster.

This thread killed chat for me as well. And like Dean, not because of you per se, but all of the other people who put on their "holier-than-thou" britches and joined in on the bashing when they were some of the worst behaved people in chat themselves. I don't like two-faced people, and this thread exposed those people to me. So I don't care to chat with them any further.

I would hope you would stop for one second from all of this petty selfishness and see the truth and honesty of a lot of these people that are bucking the system right now. We're not trying to be a pain in your side or trying to be trouble makers, we're trying to get answers and be listened to. After all, that's why most of us left Kingsnake 3+ years ago and came here, to be listened to and not shoved under the rug for disagreement, perhaps you forgot that.

I am becoming largely disinterested in CS.com right now due to lack of improvement for the better and moderation. A forum can only be so large without the need of moderators, and sadly I think we've passed that up. This forum could be so much more, but you've been reluctant to hand over the shorter reins to a few people who care about it just as much as you do. They could take the burden off of your shoulders so you're not the only one that has to be around to do the dirty work.

And to be perfectly honest its reminiscent of my mother, she does everything herself and refuses help so she can have something to complain about later. Whether that's what is going on here, I have no clue. But after years of hearing my mother's tirades about no one helping her when clearly offered help, that's what I am reminded of.

I can understand not wanting to have other people with powers around here, but at the same time, you yell at us for asking for you to do the job you've put out for yourself. And infrequently, I might add. Generally we never bothered you with the petty crap on chat, but when it gets repetitive, night after night, day after day, week after week...we'd like for you to have put a cork in the hole they were coming in through.

Then I go back and laugh at the chat logs from last year when a worthless chat moderator from Fauna came in and froze and booted a bunch of corn snake people, who were minding their own business in the corn snake room for perceived violations of chatting. That was an interesting night.

 

[Rich Z]

Sigh...... Misty, why don't you bother reading the other posts I made in this thread? Maybe even the one below....

Unattended? I banned anyone who was brought to my attention as being an obvious troll. In some instances, I did not agree with the person reporting the alleged troll, so no, nothing was done. I asked Connie Hurley to be the moderator of the chat to help keep things in line. There are others I guess I COULD have made into moderators there, but quite honestly, from what I observed, that would have made things WORSE, not better.

So how do you define "unattended"? Other than my parking myself in the chat room 12/7?

That was post #168 if you want to go back and read it as the original and in context.

So did you just ignore what I said, or did not bother to read back from those previous posts before complaining about something just to complain?

There are 36 names on the permanently banned list here. Certainly some were because of chat room abuses, but I have not, nor indend to, keep a record of such things. There were people over on FC who were banned as well. But again, I have no desire nor overwhelming reason to keep an audit log of such things to show anyone.

Yes, I banned people reported to me that were shown to be a problem. Yes, I had a moderator in the chat system. And NO, I didn't automatically side with everyone who reported someone else. And NO, I don't believe the CRAP I saw from members on this site and the way they were behaving was appropriate nor welcome.

If some people believe my desire to have that CRAP they were doing end, is my siding with someone other than them, well that is their opinion to make, regardless of reality. And if it means that they have to leave this site in order for the crap to end, rather than not thinking fighting fire with fire is the answer, then I think it is to everyone's best interests for that to take place.

As for your quip about "petty selfishness", well honestly you appear to have a chip on your shoulder about this site (or perhaps just me) for quite a while now. I guess you need to figure out the reasons for it and do something permanent about it. For your sake. I cannot please everyone, and have no intention whatsoever of attempting to do so. This site runs rather well without a lot of daily involvement on my part, and that is the way I intend to keep it.

As for moderators being needed in the forums here, I just don't see those boogie men under my bed at all. This site runs rather smoothly, as is. When there are problems brought to my attention, I deal with it effectively to end the problem, and that is that. That does not mean I automatically side with the person making the call to report something. Some personal issues are best left to just burn out on their own without my involvement.

So please, Misty, next time read all the subsequent posts since your last flyby here. It may make things more coherent in what you are saying.