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Communal laying...

It would take a lot of talking to convince me that there is any benefits to communal laying... as I said before... if herd animals such as horses and cattle go off on their own and even pack animals such as dogs go off on their own... why the heck wouldn't snakes??? Heck, even penguins, in the middle of thousands of other penguins, get their own nests!! Why again shouldn't a corn???
 
Well Elle,
After reading that entire thread I felt that I had to join that forum and put in my .02 cents. I could not believe how some of the members there are pretty much advocating what he is doing. I kind of went off with my opinions so if you want to read it I would do so sooner then later as it will probably be deleted and I will be banned. No sweat off my back.
Janine? I know exactly what you mean when you said you didn't join as you were put off by some of them members. I just don't get it. Probably never will. :shrugs:
Jay :cool:
 
Hey Jay, I never got to see your reply, I wonder why.

What did you say?

The reason people are advocating HIS methods and not just for 2 seconds considering the very valid points I have is because I am very much uliked on that forum because of the way I speak my mind and say what 100 other people are thinking but are too scared to say anything because they care too much about what other people think. Cowards...

It's a big popularity contest on that forum and as you can see, the wellfare of the snakes is not top priority.
 
Whatever my feelings on ant's method of keeping gravid corns, I feel a bit annoyed about an entire forum of 13,000 people being written off as a "poor representation of the UK herping community".

I'd be annoyed for one of the minority of argumentative threads on here to be linked on RFUK, with comments about what a crappy forum this is, how people are only saying what they're saying to agree with the moderators anyway, and how you're all poor examples of corn snake owners.

There are arguments and disagreements on RFUK - mostly, at around the same level as any other forum. Yes, because it is hugely busy there will be more good, informative posts, more intelligent and helpful people, and also more arguments and disagreements.

Unfortunately there is a relatively small crowd of people on RFUK who are always in the centre of the arguments. Elle, I'm afraid you're in there because you've upset and annoyed a fair amount of active members and moderators on many, many occasions. I'm not commenting on whether that's fair or not, but it's simply the truth. So obviously, when you're over there, you are going to encounter more hostility and more arguments than the average member.

I have met many good, helpful and caring snake owners through RFUK. I've many times gone out of my way to help out people asking for help on there, and I know if I had problems then others would come out and help me. There's people on there who've been involved in reptiles longer than I've been alive, who are involved with important issues to the UK reptile community, and plenty of other good people who are just there to chat and learn ... which is what happens the majority of the time.
 
Whatever my feelings on ant's method of keeping gravid corns, I feel a bit annoyed about an entire forum of 13,000 people being written off as a "poor representation of the UK herping community".

I'd be annoyed for one of the minority of argumentative threads on here to be linked on RFUK, with comments about what a crappy forum this is, how people are only saying what they're saying to agree with the moderators anyway, and how you're all poor examples of corn snake owners.

There are arguments and disagreements on RFUK - mostly, at around the same level as any other forum. Yes, because it is hugely busy there will be more good, informative posts, more intelligent and helpful people, and also more arguments and disagreements.

Unfortunately there is a relatively small crowd of people on RFUK who are always in the centre of the arguments. Elle, I'm afraid you're in there because you've upset and annoyed a fair amount of active members and moderators on many, many occasions. I'm not commenting on whether that's fair or not, but it's simply the truth. So obviously, when you're over there, you are going to encounter more hostility and more arguments than the average member.

I have met many good, helpful and caring snake owners through RFUK. I've many times gone out of my way to help out people asking for help on there, and I know if I had problems then others would come out and help me. There's people on there who've been involved in reptiles longer than I've been alive, who are involved with important issues to the UK reptile community, and plenty of other good people who are just there to chat and learn ... which is what happens the majority of the time.

So you are completely bypassing the issue because it's easier to pick up on my comments that I despise the bias and corupted methods of moderation on RFUK? Why haven't you stated your opinon... I thought you would be one with an interest in something like this. Or is it a case of keeping quiet to keep in with your friends and not upset anyone? I am sure you would have something to say about it in private... I remember you told me you were afraid to get too close to me because of what other people thought of me. Thats when I decided you were not a friend of mine Toyah.

Yes I am a provocative person, I don't slather things in sugar and say things I really don't mean. YES it would be lovely to say nicer things and quite simply not address the real issue. But I am a human being, with many emotions and EVERY right to say what I feel without being shot down for it.

RFUK has many fabulous members, but as a community it is all too often generalised and classed as unruly. It's running wild because the moderation team are picked only if they are liked within the community. You simply cannot deny that, you MUST have seen bias behaviour. Look at Jays post for instance, he went in guns blazing (and had every right to do so) and his post was deleted. I wonder why, because perhaps Ant got upset and Jay deleted it? I wonder...
 
I for one would like to leave the peoples petty arguments out of this (however hard that may be) and concentrate on the issue. I wonder what Kathy or Rich or Don has to say on the subject. If we are going by experience here then I am sure they are the most qualified persons to be handing out the information.
 
So you are completely bypassing the issue because it's easier to pick up on my comments that I despise the bias and corupted methods of moderation on RFUK? Why haven't you stated your opinon... I thought you would be one with an interest in something like this. Or is it a case of keeping quiet to keep in with your friends and not upset anyone?

I am completely bypassing the issue because it had already degenerated into a mud-flinging insult fest before I'd even seen it, so I had no interest in joining in. Many thousands of other people chose not to respond to that thread either, but somehow I doubt we were all keeping in with friends or choosing not to upset anyone - I imagine most of them, like me, just didn't have anything constructive to add on either side. Not everything is a conspiracy, sometimes there are much more mundane explanations.

As I said, I replied because I was annoyed at the entire forum being written off because of a couple of troublemakers. I don't mind people arguing on forums, if that's what makes them happy then go for it - but I am a human being, with many emotions and EVERY right to say what I feel without being shot down for it, so presumably I also have EVERY right to not talk about subjects I don't want to get involved in without being shot down for that too.

I remember you told me you were afraid to get too close to me because of what other people thought of me. Thats when I decided you were not a friend of mine Toyah.

Disappointing you'd choose to misquote a comment from a conversation I had while you were in my home many months before we "fell out", removing all the surrounding context, presumably (from the context and your chosen wording) in an effort to make me look bad. I will be happy to post as much as I can remember of the entire conversation and my reasons for approaching the subject if you insist, though perhaps elsewhere would be more appropriate. I have chosen not to as I'd prefer not to be accused "slagging you off" - I can't see the point in it, and frankly I don't think it's necessary.

RFUK has many fabulous members, but as a community it is all too often generalised and classed as unruly. It's running wild because the moderation team are picked only if they are liked within the community. You simply cannot deny that, you MUST have seen bias behaviour. Look at Jays post for instance, he went in guns blazing (and had every right to do so) and his post was deleted. I wonder why, because perhaps Ant got upset and Jay deleted it? I wonder...

I didn't see Jay's post - but all forums have moderators chosen if they are liked within a community, as people who are disliked and command no respect are not good choices as moderators. I remember the moderators being chosen here - definitely only picked as they are liked within the community, but also excellent mods, as are the majority of the RFUK mods.

I have seen behaviour that looks biased from mods on RFUK, sure - I've also seen behaviour that looks biased from moderators on here as well. That's because moderators are humans, with their own individual bias, and I, as the reader, am a human who views their actions through my own personal bias. I wouldn't run over to RFUK and start calling the moderation over here "corrupt" if I didn't like it.

I for one would like to leave the peoples petty arguments out of this (however hard that may be) and concentrate on the issue.

Nothing is wrong with being direct, not everything needs to be sugar-coated ... but then again your first post on the issue on RFUK said " It is because you are Anthony, friend of people in "high places" that nobody else has commented on this pretty crappy setup?". If that isn't delving straight into people's petty arguments, then I don't know what is.

You sometimes make good points Elle, and often you know what you're talking about, but while making those points provocatively is one thing, immediately going in and making it all very personal will never be an effective method of getting those points across.

I'm not interested in arguing with you, and I'm not interested in getting involved in a debate on how ant29northampton keeps his gravid females. I just think it's unfair for an entire forum to be looked down on because of the actions of a small minority of members.
 
I am completely bypassing the issue because it had already degenerated into a mud-flinging insult fest before I'd even seen it, so I had no interest in joining in. Many thousands of other people chose not to respond to that thread either, but somehow I doubt we were all keeping in with friends or choosing not to upset anyone - I imagine most of them, like me, just didn't have anything constructive to add on either side. Not everything is a conspiracy, sometimes there are much more mundane explanations.

But surley you must have an opinion on the matter? I know many thousands of people did not publically participate, but I have already had so many people come to me saying "did you see that guy with the corns are shoved in the same box". Well no I didn't see it initially, but after I did I had to comment. Now I have people saying "Oh I wanted to say this and that"... well WHY not. Because they are protecting themselves. Thats not a conspiracy theory, its simply the truth and I can understand WHY they are doing it. These people are my friends, and I have called them cowards to their faces because of it.

Would you keep 7 gravid females together? If not why not?

As I said, I replied because I was annoyed at the entire forum being written off because of a couple of troublemakers. I don't mind people arguing on forums, if that's what makes them happy then go for it - but I am a human being, with many emotions and EVERY right to say what I feel without being shot down for it, so presumably I also have EVERY right to not talk about subjects I don't want to get involved in without being shot down for that too..

These particular trouble makers are ALWAYS there at every corner, and believe it or not I don't enjoy arguing on forums. But I WILL back myself up to the bitter end (even if that means going against everyone and anything). If someone doesn't say something to these idots who will?

Disappointing you'd choose to misquote a comment from a conversation I had while you were in my home many months before we "fell out", removing all the surrounding context, presumably (from the context and your chosen wording) in an effort to make me look bad. I will be happy to post as much as I can remember of the entire conversation and my reasons for approaching the subject if you insist, though perhaps elsewhere would be more appropriate. I have chosen not to as I'd prefer not to be accused "slagging you off" - I can't see the point in it, and frankly I don't think it's necessary..

I know many people may be disappointed with me but I don't care. As soon as you said that It was never the same. Who says that to friends? This is not a conspiracy to make you look bad, just my opinion on the matter. It was just to illustrate how people don't like to do things or say things because of what other people may think of them. We can talk about this via PM if you like...

I didn't see Jay's post - but all forums have moderators chosen if they are liked within a community, as people who are disliked and command no respect are not good choices as moderators. I remember the moderators being chosen here - definitely only picked as they are liked within the community, but also excellent mods, as are the majority of the RFUK mods. .

I don't think the whole team of RFUK mods are bad. However I had severly abusive PM's and public threats of violence towards me by one particular member and nothing was done about it despite me reporting him. He even admited to KNOWING he got away with it, so I questioned the mods on the matter. If thats not bias I dont know what is...

I wouldn't run over to RFUK and start calling the moderation over here "corrupt" if I didn't like it..

Thats your descision. But I say the things I think so that perhaps someone will take notice and action will be taken against the things that are not fair or just... If you stand back and do nothing, don't ever expect anything to happen.

Nothing is wrong with being direct, not everything needs to be sugar-coated ... but then again your first post on the issue on RFUK said " It is because you are Anthony, friend of people in "high places" that nobody else has commented on this pretty crappy setup?". If that isn't delving straight into people's petty arguments, then I don't know what is.

You sometimes make good points Elle, and often you know what you're talking about, but while making those points provocatively is one thing, immediately going in and making it all very personal will never be an effective method of getting those points across.

I'm not interested in arguing with you, and I'm not interested in getting involved in a debate on how ant29northampton keeps his gravid females. I just think it's unfair for an entire forum to be looked down on because of the actions of a small minority of members.

I appologised for my initial response. But I do not appologise for anything I have brought up. Infact, Ant appologised to ME in PM (which I really appreciated). And I am off to phone him now for a wee conversation.
 
I find it interesting that someone would say that cornsnakes live communally and they don't even have cornsnakes in that country. I live where cornsnakes live in the wild and I can tell you...they don't live communily...they don't even want to be around each other except at breeding time. Unless you've actually been out in the wild, found communal snakes living together (a little impossible in the U.K) then I don't think he knows what the heck he's talking about. I am aware that co-habitating is big over there as well although for the most part it's not good husbandry. Any tiny bit of research would absolutely throw the communal living out the window! How can someone even claim they know anything when they put out B.S. like that?? I think the idea of forcing females to try to lay eggs where other females or even other snakes are is cruel. Can't even begin to figure out how he knows which one had what unless he's also harrassing the females while they lay. Surprised he doesn't just yank the eggs out of each so he can be done with it. Since he refuses to answer what sounded like a good question, he obviously doesn't have a good reason. He's just lazy and obviously doesn't care about his animals for more than the babies they produce. Very sad...no matter where you are!
 
I find it interesting that someone would say that cornsnakes live communally and they don't even have cornsnakes in that country. I live where cornsnakes live in the wild and I can tell you...they don't live communily...they don't even want to be around each other except at breeding time. Unless you've actually been out in the wild, found communal snakes living together (a little impossible in the U.K) then I don't think he knows what the heck he's talking about. I am aware that co-habitating is big over there as well although for the most part it's not good husbandry. Any tiny bit of research would absolutely throw the communal living out the window! How can someone even claim they know anything when they put out B.S. like that?? I think the idea of forcing females to try to lay eggs where other females or even other snakes are is cruel. Can't even begin to figure out how he knows which one had what unless he's also harrassing the females while they lay. Surprised he doesn't just yank the eggs out of each so he can be done with it. Since he refuses to answer what sounded like a good question, he obviously doesn't have a good reason. He's just lazy and obviously doesn't care about his animals for more than the babies they produce. Very sad...no matter where you are!
BRAVO!!!!
I am done banging my head against the wall on that forum.
Jay :cool:
 
I find it interesting that someone would say that cornsnakes live communally and they don't even have cornsnakes in that country. I live where cornsnakes live in the wild and I can tell you...they don't live communily...they don't even want to be around each other except at breeding time. Unless you've actually been out in the wild, found communal snakes living together (a little impossible in the U.K) then I don't think he knows what the heck he's talking about. I am aware that co-habitating is big over there as well although for the most part it's not good husbandry. Any tiny bit of research would absolutely throw the communal living out the window! How can someone even claim they know anything when they put out B.S. like that?? I think the idea of forcing females to try to lay eggs where other females or even other snakes are is cruel. Can't even begin to figure out how he knows which one had what unless he's also harrassing the females while they lay. Surprised he doesn't just yank the eggs out of each so he can be done with it. Since he refuses to answer what sounded like a good question, he obviously doesn't have a good reason. He's just lazy and obviously doesn't care about his animals for more than the babies they produce. Very sad...no matter where you are!

I absolutly agree Meg. I spoke with Ant for over an hour on the phone last night and he is a lovely guy who just freaked out at my abrasive and blunt nature. He admited to only ever having one female lay on her own and she slugged out, and he was following advice from a guy who has been breeding for 40 something years. I asked him because it failed once why didn't he give it another chance?...

I calmly explained that gravid or not, housing 7 corns in a 4ft viv is unreasonable to me but he says he doesn't keep them like this all year round. I want to know why after being housed seperatley does he bother to shove them all together. I can't quite remember his answer.

But from speaking to him he seems like a man set in his ways. And in all honesty who are we to challange someone elses keeping. People do what they like their THEIR snakes no matter how much any of us disagrees with it.
 
I know many people may be disappointed with me but I don't care. As soon as you said that It was never the same. Who says that to friends? This is not a conspiracy to make you look bad, just my opinion on the matter. It was just to illustrate how people don't like to do things or say things because of what other people may think of them. We can talk about this via PM if you like...

I feel that if it's worth quoting a conversation in public, it's worth quoting the whole conversation in public - though I appreciate it's often easier to illustrate a point by ignoring the original context. Apologies I didn't see this post earlier, but I hope you haven't been waiting for that PM :)
 
I feel that if it's worth quoting a conversation in public, it's worth quoting the whole conversation in public - though I appreciate it's often easier to illustrate a point by ignoring the original context. Apologies I didn't see this post earlier, but I hope you haven't been waiting for that PM :)

Original context or not, it's an awful thing to say to anyone. And I'm not waiting on anything from you. Although I see you still don't want to share your thoughts on the topic of this thread which is entirley your choice.
 
I noticed they locked the thread now. I was reading thru it...all of it...before I couldn't deal with it anymore. The fact he's had no deaths merely points out how tough these animals are. Do that to a chondro and you'd have dead mothers all over the place. Cornsnakes are indeed the ideal BEGINNER snake.....or for people who want to experiment at the expense of the snakes and still manage to produce something.
 
I noticed they locked the thread now. I was reading thru it...all of it...before I couldn't deal with it anymore. The fact he's had no deaths merely points out how tough these animals are. Do that to a chondro and you'd have dead mothers all over the place. Cornsnakes are indeed the ideal BEGINNER snake.....or for people who want to experiment at the expense of the snakes and still manage to produce something.

I have been following this thread as well,with great interest. I was on rfuk when it started and read every post right up until it was locked.
It's not something I would condone or try myself (co-hab). But two members that know Ant personally (and I trust and respect them as corn breeders) have said that his success rate at hatching is way beyond theirs. In fact they said they wish they had his success rate. I found that fact very interesting....
Like I said I DO NOT CONDONE THIS so no flaming me...LOL
 
I have been following this thread as well,with great interest. I was on rfuk when it started and read every post right up until it was locked.
It's not something I would condone or try myself (co-hab). But two members that know Ant personally (and I trust and respect them as corn breeders) have said that his success rate at hatching is way beyond theirs. In fact they said they wish they had his success rate. I found that fact very interesting....
Like I said I DO NOT CONDONE THIS so no flaming me...LOL

Without recording data using 14 different females at least ie 7 cohabed and 7 loners and finding out the EXACT hatch ratch and not estimates would prove whether or not communal laying was more successful in getting females to lay a higher percentage of fertile clutches (not taking into account the "feelings" of the animals). Doing this for a few years using the same females and switching them around so they get a few chances at both senarios would be the only way I am convinced that this method certainly does produce a higher hatch rate.
 
Without recording data using 14 different females at least ie 7 cohabed and 7 loners and finding out the EXACT hatch ratch and not estimates would prove whether or not communal laying was more successful in getting females to lay a higher percentage of fertile clutches (not taking into account the "feelings" of the animals). Doing this for a few years using the same females and switching them around so they get a few chances at both senarios would be the only way I am convinced that this method certainly does produce a higher hatch rate.
I agree. A lot of research would be needed, using control groups.
But who would have the courage to swim against the tide and publish their findings. Even with proof a lot of people would still flame them a disagree...
 
Very true Mike... The only thing science has ever been able to do is prove and disprove it's self. If we did find out that shoving 7 females in one viv whilst laying contirbuted to a higher fertility and hatch rate would that make it morally right for the animals? 7 snakes in a 4ft viv gravid or not is something I don't think I could ever do even if it was a foolproof way of producing 100% hatch rates. Does that not mean we would be doing it for our benefit only... I think so.
 
Not necessarily, if the fertility went up and the hatch rate wouldn't that point to the fact the snakes were less stressed...
I've never co-habed, for my own selfish benefit. (more vivs look cooler..I don't want the hassle of feeding and infection etc) but after reading Ants account of things it made me start to ask questions ...
Off topic.... Anyone on any forum that asks about UV for snakes is told that it's not needed... I now have evidence that this may be wrong.....But every newb will say *no not needed* because they read a post by their peers and they just repeat it without any research.....
 
Like I said in that whole thread, I would love to know more. I asked Ant various questions on the phone and stupid me can't remember most of the asnwers but they were very basic and didn't really get me any more clued up on this unorthadox method.

I am sure UV could benefit snakes, but I still believe it's is not NECRSSARY for most snakes. All my lot are exposed to natural day and night cycles and UV from the sun anyway...
 
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