Controversial Topic #3: Replies to "Newbs"

[snakedancer]

Oops! left stuff out again. Darn, I wish I'd stop doing that. If people would stop using so much "chat speak", responses to their questions would be nicer and more plentiful. I agree with both sides on this subject though and it really all depends on how the poster and replier(s) are behaving with each other.

 

[jenkva]

Any1 kan mak meestakes u no, 'tis in 'uman natur .... :roflmao:

 

[Hypancistrus]

I am going to try and write this to not offend anyone, though I know I probably will.

This is kind of what I was going to point out. I am a total and utter newby with regards to snake-keeping, and indeed, with regards to reptile keeping. I've successfully maintained tree frogs for a year now- and that's my herp "background."

I did read books WAY before purchasing my snake. But then... I like to read books. I've also read books on Leopard Geckos, Cresties, Beardies, Boas, "hots" and just about anything else you can think of, with no plans of owning any (except maybe a gecko) in the near future. Some people enjoy reading books- and other people don't, for many reasons.

Some of those non-book people go to the internet instead. Maybe this is the first site they've visited about corns. Maybe they don't know the search function exists, or maybe (like me!) they simply cannot figure out how to use it to get viable results. I've tried several times and agree with a previous poster- partial shed brings up partial regurges, my snake shed, etc. but few links relevant to your question.

While I am a newby here, I am NOT a newby with fish. I am a member of a large fish forum, where I handle newby questions fairly regularly. Do I get sick of answering the same question over and over again? Yes. But that doesn't mean I won't do it, because I happen to want people to be successful at their new hobby. Is it my "obligation" to do so? No. But I think that a more experienced person saying "it's not my obligation to help newbies" is just sad. We were all new once- we all made the mistake of keeping the wrong fish together in a too-small tank. So for the future of my hobby (and having "new blood" around) I continue to help new people out as much as possible. I would think experienced corn snake folks would feel likewise.

Given my self-proclaimed status as 1) a "newby" here, and 2) an "experienced" person for other species and forums, it has been interesting to see things from the newby POV. There have been several instances where I have been shocked by how rude experienced posters can be on this site when dealing with a newby. Coming onto a thread where someone is obviously distraught over the death of a snake and blasting them for a simple (and self-admittedly SILLY) question is just ridiculous. There's no excuse for it. Or how about this reply "Are you new to the internet too? It seems strange to ask questions about a boa on a corn snake forum," posted as a reply to a question I asked about a persons boa pic. Why even bother to reply? Likewise, responding to a newby post with "Use the search forum" is innapropriate as well.

I think in essence, being a newby here has solidified my feelings of how experienced people should treat newbies. We should treat them as we would like to be treated, and, barring rude behavior on their parts, should do the best that we can to help them out. If you are an experienced poster who is unwilling or unable to devote your time to newby questions without being rude or sarcastic towards them, then just don't bother to reply. In that respect, you truly are under NO OBLIGATION.

Hi all
I do a lot of lurking on this board. Not only do I want to learn more about cornsnakes, but I am also scoping out what snakes I might want to acquire and who I might want to get them from. Character is very important to me and I strongly avoid buying anything from people who are unkind to other people, no matter how "justified".

However, as this NEWBY has pointed out- there's a fine line here that Corn Snake veterans must deal with that us fish geek veterans do NOT have to deal with. I, as an experienced fish geek, do not have any financial interest in a newby's questions, because I do not sell fish, nor will I ever.

Corn snakes on the other hand are typically sold by breeders to just the sort of newbies that some veterans around here are so fond of bashing. So you all DO have a pressing reason to be polite to people- those same people you put down today may be the customers of tomorrow, and they will remember you, for better or for worse.

I know I certainly will.

Now, bring on the flames. :flames:

P.S. Does anyone know the proper spelling of newby? Is it "newby?" Or "newbie?" I couldn't find it in the dictionary... :shrugs: :grin01:

 

[Hypancistrus]

I will also add that I would not mind seeing a beginners forum. We have one at our fish site, and it allows people who are not interested in talking to newbies to avoid their questions (generally), while those of us who don't mind typically pick up the slack. Once I have some more experience under my belt with snakes, I will be happy to help out folks who are new(er than me!), but I've got to get some experience myself first.

 

[Roy Munson]

No. But I think that a more experienced person saying "it's not my obligation to help newbies" is just sad. We were all new once- we all made the mistake of keeping the wrong fish together in a too-small tank. So for the future of my hobby (and having "new blood" around) I continue to help new people out as much as possible. I would think experienced corn snake folks would feel likewise.

I see your point, but when you direct a newbie to the search function, or other places that have the answers, and they reply: "can't you jsut tell me?!!1 That's what your sposed to be here for!!1", I get agitated. I resent being told that it is my responsibility to spoon-feed these people the answers they refuse to research. I also resent being told that this is the reason for this site's existence. Maybe you place a different value on lazy people to the future of this hobby than I do-- different strokes, I guess.

Or how about this reply "Are you new to the internet too? It seems strange to ask questions about a boa on a corn snake forum," posted as a reply to a question I asked about a persons boa pic. Why even bother to reply?

Hmmm. This is not how it happened. Why bring up a point, misquote your example, and change the entire context of the quote? This seems a little unethical. Where was your boa question again? Your misquote introduces an element of sarcasm that I made every effort to dispel in my REAL post, and I can't say that I appreciate it. Let me refresh your memory as to the actual exchange:

I kind of like seeing other people's herp pictures. I am a total newby at this, so a lot of these snakes I have never seen before in my life. This is the general chit chat (off topic) forum, so I think I agree with the person who said that if you don't like seeing pics of boids or other critters, don't come into this section.

I could see the point if folks were posting about boas in the corn sections. But here...?

And I think there's a middle ground where we can strike a better balance. Are you a newbie to the internet in general? I only ask because I would not go to a site called cornsnakes.com to be introduced to the non-corn herps of the world. Of course, in my day we had these crazy things called books...

Likewise, responding to a newby post with "Use the search forum" is innapropriate as well.

In YOUR opinion. I happen to disagree with you. But if you decide that you can't purchase snakes from people whose thinking is not identical to yours, I will understand.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I tend to agree with the newbie who said they wouldn't purchase a snake from somebody who was intolerant or rude. I wouldn't either! It's called customer service. I breed snakes that I sell and I do feel a sense of obligation to educate the buyer on how to take care of them just so the babies can go on to lead healthy lives. I sold an amel last year to a kid (not from these forums) who emails me all the time to ask when/what size he should feed and silly questions like that, I like corresponding with him though because he sends me pics of the snake and gives me updates.
Experienced members here have a wealth of knowledge, but some of them only seem to reply to posts by other experienced members who have been around for a long time. For the future of the hobby and the sake of keeping the interest in corn snakes going I like to see posts by newbies trying to learn and do right by their animals. Not everyone is going to have perfect grammar and know how to use computers but AFAIK neither one of these things are qualifiers for whether or not they should own a pet snake. I do think there is a lot you can and should learn on your own and telling someone how to use the search function can be helpful, but this can be done politely and not with the tone of 'jeez, not this question again... there are already a million threads on this so just do a search!' For example it's not that hard to provide a link to one of these threads, IMO one of the best repliers to newbies is Lennycorn with all the links which are helpful and give them a starting point from which to learn.

 

[Drizzt80]

I will preface this response with the fact that I have NOT read through the last several pages of this thread. I just came in to see what the 'new' discussion was about and read the last couple of posts . . .

I tend to agree with the newbie who said they wouldn't purchase a snake from somebody who was intolerant or rude. I wouldn't either! It's called customer service.

The problem is that online, intolerant and rude is often misconstrued. Heck, even face to face, being blunt and straight forward with a no-BS answer can be misconstrued as intolerant and rude.

I breed snakes that I sell and I do feel a sense of obligation to educate the buyer on how to take care of them just so the babies can go on to lead healthy lives. I sold an amel last year to a kid (not from these forums) who emails me all the time to ask when/what size he should feed and silly questions like that, I like corresponding with him though because he sends me pics of the snake and gives me updates.

Agreed 100%. I think a lot of it has to do with how the seller is approached just as much as how the answer/correspondence is given!

Experienced members here have a wealth of knowledge, but some of them only seem to reply to posts by other experienced members who have been around for a long time. For the future of the hobby and the sake of keeping the interest in corn snakes going I like to see posts by newbies trying to learn and do right by their animals. Not everyone is going to have perfect grammar and know how to use computers but AFAIK neither one of these things are qualifiers for whether or not they should own a pet snake.

Agreed, and well spoken. Personally I try to engage in thoughtful discussion on items important to the advancement of the hobby . . . which happens to usually involve other experienced members of the forum. I also attempt to help newbies with their questions when I think I can give them some valuable information AND when I think they'll listen . . . that's the key . . . the grammar used, the tone, etc. will dictate how the original posting newbie will be received by others . . . BUT, am I obligated to help them? I think that's what Dean is speaking to. The 'newbies' that I feel Dean is referring to in his latest couple of posts (remember I haven't read everything here) seem to feel that everyone else is obligate to help them, and that's not the reality of life.

For example it's not that hard to provide a link to one of these threads, IMO one of the best repliers to newbies is Lennycorn with all the links which are helpful and give them a starting point from which to learn.

I agree! Lenny does a great job of posting reply's, posting links, BUT at times can make comments that can be misconstrued as rude and intolerant . . . so where does that fit in?! :grin01:

It will be the eternal debate on every interent forum ever . . .
D80

 

[Roy Munson]

I tend to agree with the newbie who said they wouldn't purchase a snake from somebody who was intolerant or rude. I wouldn't either! It's called customer service.

I generally agree with this, Jen. But I doubt that everyone can agree on what sorts of behavior constitute rudeness or intolerance. I've bought a lot of snakes from Rich Z.. He has stated that his whole reason for setting up this forum was to free him from the drudgery of answering countless newb questions. A newb might consider this action to be rude or intolerant, or an example of poor customer service, but I wouldn't agree with that assessment.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

D80 and Dean, great replies to my post. I agree 'intolerant and rude' can certainly be 'straightforward and no BS' getting misconstrued through the facelessness of the internet. I guess for me it's just a gut feeling. We all have days when our patience runs thin. And with the small percentage of newbies who ask advice and then challenge it and not take it because it wasn't what they wanted to hear, those I think I would be intolerant and rude to myself. Why ask for advice, make people take the time to answer, and then not take it? But these are a small percentage and not the majority, it's just they end up giving the rest of them a bad rap lol.

 

[Drizzt80]

Why ask for advice, make people take the time to answer, and then not take it? But these are a small percentage and not the majority, it's just they end up giving the rest of them a bad rap lol.

Exactly!! :cheers: Once again I bring out Longs Law: Those who know the least will always know it the loudest. (I don't even know who Long is, or remember where I found this quote . . . I just think it's a pretty darn accurate account of some people nowadays!)

D80

 

[jenkva]

I tend to agree with the newbie who said they wouldn't purchase a snake from somebody who was intolerant or rude. I wouldn't either! It's called customer service. I breed snakes that I sell and I do feel a sense of obligation to educate the buyer on how to take care of them just so the babies can go on to lead healthy lives. I sold an amel last year to a kid (not from these forums) who emails me all the time to ask when/what size he should feed and silly questions like that, I like corresponding with him though because he sends me pics of the snake and gives me updates.
Experienced members here have a wealth of knowledge, but some of them only seem to reply to posts by other experienced members who have been around for a long time. For the future of the hobby and the sake of keeping the interest in corn snakes going I like to see posts by newbies trying to learn and do right by their animals. Not everyone is going to have perfect grammar and know how to use computers but AFAIK neither one of these things are qualifiers for whether or not they should own a pet snake. I do think there is a lot you can and should learn on your own and telling someone how to use the search function can be helpful, but this can be done politely and not with the tone of 'jeez, not this question again... there are already a million threads on this so just do a search!' For example it's not that hard to provide a link to one of these threads, IMO one of the best repliers to newbies is Lennycorn with all the links which are helpful and give them a starting point from which to learn.

I agree with what you are saying and also with the fact about Lennycorn's replies, this is why I always give to noob the URL to one of his posts

 

[susang]

Well here's my .02, which is probably worth less. Lately I have seen a lot of new people giving advice to other new people, doing it in a manner which makes them sound like they really know what they are talking about. One example and I don't remember thread "if your snake is cold hold it under a heat light". While someone jumped in on this so many go without more expert advice. For a while I would try to reply with my own experience stating that is what it is my experience. From my point after the "water bowl" incident I am reluctant to even do that.
I see this forum as a learning experience and can sift out most good advice from bad, but I couldn't in the beginning. As many have said in other threads recently good questions, spell checked, and coherent go a long way. Not only for the reader but the person asking the question. So the new people coming in making statements that need a translater help no one, and only make more experienced people throw their hands up and go onto another thread, and I don't blame them.

 

[ickle_moose]

Much as the rubbish spelling can throw people off, many 'newbie' threads, mis-spelled or not, get the answers they need either because a) they are at the edge of desperation/panic and the people on this forum are generally nice anough to care about the snake in question if not the owner, or b) even though they can't spell they at least give the feeling that they care a smidgen about the animal they've taken on. (And, no, 'smidgen' is not in the spell-checker!).

Personally, the newbie threads I won't repy to are are the ones that seem to require zero thought at all. That can be coveyed in really depressing language errors (obviously 2nd language users or youngsters are given more slack) or just in being, well......... daft. Please feel free to flame, but if you've got your first corn/animal because you just wandered into a pet-store, (or you've discovered in the wild or your mate gave you or it was beamed down from a space-ship or blah blah blah), just taking on the animal, in my opinion, shows a certain level of respect to that LIVING thing. We're not talking about, 'ooh, my what temperature should my new paperweight be kept' type daftness, we are talking about a living breathing creature for which, through whatever circumstances, you have now taken on responsibility for.

If you can't take on enough responsibility to search/read through an accessible forum, why exactly should anyone spoon feed you?

Obviously there are shades of grey, mitigating circumstances, but I hope I'm not alone when I say that the only people who really irritate me and cause me to flame are those who; have already recieved advice from not one but usually from a whole host of more experienced people and then complain, e.g. their snake has been eaten/laid eggs/caught a parasite/got burned/etc etc, basically because they didn't follow the poster's advice, and it is therefore that original (trying to be helpful to an annoying person) poster's fault.

Phew, long sentence

I respond to many ill-typed posts (and more than occasionally make them myself!) if, at the very least, the poster seems to value their snake's life over....say.... their vaccuum cleaner. Unfortunately this is not always the case!

 

[jazzgeek]

Once again I bring out Longs Law: Those who know the least will always know it the loudest. (I don't even know who Long is, or remember where I found this quote . . . I just think it's a pretty darn accurate account of some people nowadays!)

Agreed, Brent. It's like the Taoist saying (and I paraphrase): "He who knows, stays silent; he who does not know, opens his mouth."

Or something.


regards,
jazz

 

[ghosthousecorns]

And this in turn reminds me of another one - It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt... :noevil:

 

[Hypancistrus]

I see your point, but when you direct a newbie to the search function, or other places that have the answers, and they reply: "can't you jsut tell me?!!1 That's what your sposed to be here for!!1", I get agitated. I resent being told that it is my responsibility to spoon-feed these people the answers they refuse to research.

I agree. That would be "rudeness," IMHO, and would slightly change the tone of my response. I still don't think "Here's the search function" is a good answer to a newby's first post, regardless.

Hmmm. This is not how it happened. Why bring up a point, misquote your example, and change the entire context of the quote? This seems a little unethical.

Calling me unethical because I got a quote from two weeks ago wrong at 7:45 in the morning?? Sorry, was a little rushed in getting ready to go to work- I'll try not to be so unethical in the future.

In any case, the essence of the quote was the same. I took it with a grain of salt, but at the same time I thought it implied that I was stupid enough not to realize this was a Corn Snake forum.... :shrugs:

I happen to disagree with you. But if you decide that you can't purchase snakes from people whose thinking is not identical to yours, I will understand.

Never said I wouldn't buy from someone who doesn't agree with me, just that I wouldn't want to buy from someone who was rude, short, or otherwise disparaging to me when I was just learning the hobby. It's possible to disagree in a civil manner, you know, and without being sarcastic.

All I was trying to point out is that some of the folks around here need to consider their future sales which may come from said newby that they are trashing on the forum. Would you rather see those folks go to Petco for their corns, or have a good experience here and decide to purchase from a breeder they've found through the site?

 

[Hypancistrus]

Calling me unethical because I got a quote from two weeks ago wrong at 7:45 in the morning?? Sorry, was a little rushed in getting ready to go to work- I'll try not to be so unethical in the future.

I meant to put a on that just so you'd know there's no hard feelings. I did get the quote wrong, but I was pressed for time and really couldn't afford more time to look it up in its exact proportions.

 

[Roy Munson]

I meant to put a on that just so you'd know there's no hard feelings. I did get the quote wrong, but I was pressed for time and really couldn't afford more time to look it up in its exact proportions.

No hard feelings at all. I was just discussing the whole "posting attitude vs. marketing" thing with another member the other day, and my views were nearly identical to yours. Of course, I'd kinda feel like a sell-out if I composed ALL of my posts with only future marketing in mind.

Or I might just be writing this so you'll still buy some $600 snakes from me in a couple of years...

 

[Hypancistrus]

Or I might just be writing this so you'll still buy some $600 snakes from me in a couple of years...

I thought that's what the Suh-weet looking black beauty in your avatar was for??

 

[CMLReptiles]

helping the newbs is good, and a lot of the senior and not so senior members here do it regularly. The problem is when the newb doesn't like the advice given. I have no problem helping somebody who's willing to listen. When somebody comes into chat and asks a question, doesn't like the answer, proceeds to ask everytime somebody new enters the chat, then when they don't get the answer they want they go and post a thread asking the SAME question. This is the kinda stuff that leads the veteran members to kinda "lay the smack down" on newbs for apparently no reason. I'm sure most of the people here can think of 4 or 5 instances in the last 2-3 months where we had issues like this.