Copperhead and Cottonmouth

[Tom Tuttle]

Terri, Sorry about the use of the y's". I too am interested in the progression of this one. From what I can recall the head and the broken stripe on top have the colors mostly associated with butters. It is difficult to capture that at times. I don't know if the flash has washed it out . :shrugs:
I got this pair in a trade from DanD quite some time ago. They have successfully bred the past two seasons for me. :cheers:

Jessica, Thanks again for you purchase. If for any reason you're unhappy with him lmk. :shrugs: I still have another male to replace him. :cheers:

 

[CornCrazy]

Terri, Sorry about the use of the y's". I too am interested in the progression of this one. From what I can recall the head and the broken stripe on top have the colors mostly associated with butters. It is difficult to capture that at times. I don't know if the flash has washed it out . :shrugs:
I got this pair in a trade from DanD quite some time ago. They have successfully bred the past two seasons for me. :cheers:

Jessica, Thanks again for you purchase. If for any reason you're unhappy with him lmk. :shrugs: I still have another male to replace him. :cheers:

LOL...no problem about the "y's." I just didn't want everyone thinking I was a guy. :grin01:

Is the above picture the same snake? From the markings, it looks like it is. He is SO red!!!

Jessica...do you have a butter to breed him to? It would be interesting to see those results in a couple of years.

Oh yeah - I found another picture of the amel motley I posted earlier. It shows his light colored head a bit better.

 

[Jessicat]

Terri, don't worry I don't think you're trying to cause trouble at all. I'm glad you've taken interest. It's nice to get input from someone with more experience. Do you think it's possible he's some sort of paradox? Phenotypically amel and genotypicaly a butter?
Unfortunately I do not have a female for him. I'm working on that but I'm being rather picky. Tom had a perfectly good female that I could have gotten with him but she had a perfect motley look and I want more of a striping look. In a few months or so when I have some more money I might post an add asking around if anyone has any yearlings they wouldn't mind selling.

I'm still rather clueless about genetics. What should I test him out with? Is a female butter my best bet?

Tom, I'm not dissatisfied with this guy! I probably should have just gone with the other male you had available but for some reason I just kind of fell in love with his look. I'm not sure what to call him though. *shrug* If I can't find a nice female yearling this year you can put me at the top of your list for a motley/stripe female for next year.

Copperhead has his first meal with me today. I got a few pictures which show his body a bit better. He doesn't look quite as red as the picture you posted of him. He doesn't look like a butter though =/

 

[CornCrazy]

Jessica,

I think the BEST thing to breed him to would be a caramel. We KNOW he is an amel. We want to find out if he is a caramel. If you breed him to a caramel and get all caramels, then he is a butter. AND he would be a paradox butter

I will state that I am not the best person here when it comes to genetics. Maybe Serpwidgets can give some input. :shrugs:

 

[Susan]

You're not seeing things Terri! I would have called it an amel myself as that is what it looks like in all the photos. I have no clue as to how it could have happened...maybe a malfunctioning caramel gene...one that just didn't "turn on". Stranger things have been known to happen.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Terri, don't worry I don't think you're trying to cause trouble at all. I'm glad you've taken interest. It's nice to get input from someone with more experience. Do you think it's possible he's some sort of paradox? Phenotypically amel and genotypicaly a butter?
Unfortunately I do not have a female for him. I'm working on that but I'm being rather picky. Tom had a perfectly good female that I could have gotten with him but she had a perfect motley look and I want more of a striping look. In a few months or so when I have some more money I might post an add asking around if anyone has any yearlings they wouldn't mind selling.

I'm still rather clueless about genetics. What should I test him out with? Is a female butter my best bet?

Tom, I'm not dissatisfied with this guy! I probably should have just gone with the other male you had available but for some reason I just kind of fell in love with his look. I'm not sure what to call him though. *shrug* If I can't find a nice female yearling this year you can put me at the top of your list for a motley/stripe female for next year.

Jessica ,You're at the top of the list. I'll let you know if I run into any other nice butter females that are unrelated. Fantastic looking photo's too!!
:cheers:

 

[SnakeAround]

Or the second butter motley is a very light cream :sidestep:

 

[CornCrazy]

Or the second butter motley is a very light cream :sidestep:

Ouch...that's a scary thought.

Jessica...I wrote to Chuck and he said that he agrees that a caramel would be the best choice for a mate for your little guy. You want to be sure to get one that is NOT het amel, though. Your results would be harder to interpret if the female was het amel.

 

[SnakeAround]

Ouch...that's a scary thought.

What is more likely? Fluke of nature or a very light cream.....? :shrugs:

 

[CornCrazy]

What is more likely? Fluke of nature or a very light cream.....?

I don't know... :shrugs:

 

[alyndria]

A stripe, yay. No matter what he is, he's a great lookin' snake.

What's a cream?

 

[El Jefe]

And this is why the ACR will be a great asset down the road. Granted, people can put the wrong information in and then we have a problem but breeding trials should help correct that as well as parental information and family trees.

(Note: I have no idea what these animals are...I can see the butter, amel and creamsicle possibility in the pictures so who knows? That motley/stripe thing seems to confuse the color a lot. I'm seeing it in my lava motleys...color just not as expected. Your animals are very pretty, though.)

 

[Jessicat]

Thank you for everyone's input. I'm probably going to need a lot of help/ideas understanding everything!

After looking around people's sites to check on what was available I'm going to with a caramel motley from SMR =)

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

why why why

why do people throw in hybrid (in this case cream) every time something looks different then what you think it should?

Did you look at the parents? Did you see hybrid (cream) there?

How many times have you seen clutch mates that look different.
Granted it doesn't look like what you would expect but NOTHING in that snake bred from a pair of butters says creamsicle.
When you breed two butters together where the heck do you get cream?
If you notice, it doesn't look nearly as red in the newer photos as it did in the first.
Different, yes,
worth watching, yes
cream, WHY?

 

[CornCrazy]

Thank you for everyone's input. I'm probably going to need a lot of help/ideas understanding everything!

After looking around people's sites to check on what was available I'm going to with a caramel motley from SMR =)

Sounds like an awesome choice! If your guy is a butter, then you will get all caramel motleys het amel from that pairing.

 

[SnakeAround]

why do people throw in hybrid (in this case cream) every time something looks different then what you think it should?

Did you look at the parents? Did you see hybrid (cream) there?

How many times have you seen clutch mates that look different.
Granted it doesn't look like what you would expect but NOTHING in that snake bred from a pair of butters says creamsicle.
When you breed two butters together where the heck do you get cream?
If you notice, it doesn't look nearly as red in the newer photos as it did in the first.
Different, yes,
worth watching, yes
cream, WHY?

A very light cream can be mistaken for a butter... that is why. Take a look at the yellow cream at Don's site for example.... If I remember right, one of the parents is motley, which lightens up the color. I'm not sure what is more probable, such a mistake or a butter that looks like an almost red amel (which can be orange instead of red too).

I agree that seeing siblings would be great to indicate what is going on. If they all look like butters, then my suggestion is less probable, though a butter x cream clutch might produce amels looking like butters... the caramel would throw in the yellow then and the cream parent has been mistaken for butter then already...

I don't think my suggestion is hybrid paranoid, since cream is accepted by almost anyone and has been bred a lot.... I'd like to know how trustworhty the sources are where the parents came from...

 

[SnakeAround]

Jimmy, you have cream stripes yourself... imagine them with more yellow caused by the het caramel....could it not be close too a striped butter motley or striped butter?

This is your pic;

I'm only suggesting, not saying it is what has happened....

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

hmmm

Well, I have been asked if my stripe cream adults are actually butter stripes.
Interesting.
But, I just don't see the connection with the snakes in question.
Those parents just don't look like creams to me.
As we established, the hatchling in question does look more red then you would expect but that redness would lead me more away from cream then towards cream.
Usually with the more corn you get in creamsicles the more red they look. So if you took butters that were somehow suspected of having a slight amount of emoryi blood (creamsicle) I just don't think you could expect that small percentage to present itself as red.
It would seem to be just the opposite.
I have a tendency to come down a little harsh at times and didn't really mean to in the previous post I just sometimes get a little discouraged at the tendency for hybrid to be suggested with slight differences in snakes.

The little guy in question does seem to be different, no doubt about that.
I think some can be attributed to the photos themselves but I was also wondering if one of the butter motley parents may have actually been an amber motley?
I have seen a few ambers that look like butters.
If this was the case wouldn't that result in caramel motley babies?
This could possibly explain the darker look??
or what if the possible amber motley was het amel. You could possibly get caramel and butter motleys.
Or what if one of those parents was actually an extremely light caramel motley or caramel motley het amel?

I guess my speculations are no more valid then the cream speculation I just feel the results of emoryi influence would be opposite of what we are seeing.

There is still the simple possibility that it is just a darker then usual specimen and will mature into a nice, richly colored butter motley.

sorry to be an ass

 

[SnakeAround]

No hard feelings Jimmy, sometimes I'm more harsh then other days too...

I think there is a miscommunication... my suggestion is not that a butter parent has emoryi influence, cause that would indeed NOT produce more red butter hatchlings but the opposite, I agree on that... my suggestion is, that one of the parents is a very yellow cream (not homo for caramel), maybe het for caramel (causing the yellow), which would produce creams het caramel and 'butter rootbeers'. We all know that cream hatchlings can look quite much alike corn amels.... emoryi would turn the red less red (into orange) as in this hatchling. That is my logic...

 

[SnakeAround]

By the way, I don't see why this hatchling would be a caramel or amber more likely... they have no red too AND are supposed to show shades of brown.... that would suggest 2 'definitions' not being met....