crazy hybrid

[SnakeAround]

Sorry for your loss Vinman! Hoped to see all grown up gorgeous critters!

And DMong, it seems to me every time you show up in a thread, you are provoking an arguement or already in it. Or did I just forget about all your nice and valuable comments because your trolling posts are so obnoxious they just erase them in my mind?

 

[Nanci]

Believe me his stupidity only hurts himself. Sounds like a kid, teenager or a person of low intellect

Okay, so you all can quit reporting Doug's post insulting Vinny unless you also want to report Vinny's post above, which preceded it.

And Vinny and Doug, let's call it even and quit with the name calling, please.

 

[SnakeAround]

Doug started it with the denegrating, trolling laughing post... meant to provoke, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

AWWWW, did I strike a little childish nerve there when I tell things how they really are and it goes against your little irresponsible Romper Room experiments?. I'll bet you were the type of kid that had all sorts of silly crap added onto his bicycle too, just because you could!, huh?..HAHAHAHA!!!!!! :roflmao:

"intellect?"......LOL!!,....yeah, you're about as bright as a cigarette lighter in a snowstorm my friend!

Okay, your first statement... denigrating another human being and making an ill-founded claim that Vinman is irresponsible with his hybridizing. If your going to make a claim, back it up with the reasons you have for believing your claim to be true. Does Vinman release his hybrids to unsuspecting people as non-hybrids or is he honest if he gives or sells such a hybrid to another? In short, does Vinman seek to actively deceive with his hybrids? Vinman, "It is a f2 50/50 cross and looks like a pure gray band. I don't want to sell her to anyone and I don't just want to cross her to anything that my will make young that look pure." Yeah, that to me does not support your statement that Vinman is unethical or otherwise irresponsible in his hybridizing efforts.
Now personally, I know many hybridizers that would say that Vinman not crossing his hybrids back to parents is limiting his true potential as a hybridizer as well as limiting his eventual phenotypical expressions in his hybrids. Backcrossing, sibling crossing, and outcrossing are all valuable tools in a hybridizers arsenal. Many might argue that there are hybrids that may have something hidden in them that will not be discovered or magnified enough to warrant the release of that hybrid, but further working with that hybrid may elicit a stronger response or a more noteworthy phenotype to arise. Some genes have a compounding effect or a synergistic effect on each other.... some gene combinations between different species can even elicit phenotypes that did not exist in either species. I'm talking about changes that are not merely a blending of traits, but traits that are completely differently expressed when mixed from different species. I'm off my soap box, but for what its worth... Vinman is ethical in his hybridizing to the detriment of his eventual hybrid creations if you ask me as he is stunting his true potential by missing out on crosses that look too much like one of the original parent species. This is my personal opinion. I realize you may agree or disagree with me and we can leave it at that. It can not be argued though that sibling crosses or inbreeding in general is a fast way to uncover the good and the bad so to speak in an animal as inbreeding results in increased homozygosity. Someone that utilizes this method of breeding to any great extent must be willing to cull with a ferocity that is often lacking in other hybridizers, but it is also a good way to remove unwanted genes as well. With all of that rambling now done... I salute Vinman for his efforts even though I don't agree with how he hybridizes as I personally think he is stunting his efforts.

 

[Vinman]

Nanci he came on this thread to start trouble. I checked other posts by him and it seems he likes to start trouble there too. . I have not been on the forum in months and now you see why . The harassment on this forum has got to stop. I never even heard of him till he came on this post starting crap.

BTW, Congrats on becoming a mod

 

[Vinman]

Sorry for your loss Vinman! Hoped to see all grown up gorgeous critters!

And DMong, it seems to me every time you show up in a thread, you are provoking an arguement or already in it. Or did I just forget about all your nice and valuable comments because your trolling posts are so obnoxious they just erase them in my mind?

thank you I hope to get some babies from my cornduran in 2013

 

[SnakeAround]

That's what I have noted too Vin!

 

[Vinman]

Okay, your first statement... denigrating another human being and making an ill-founded claim that Vinman is irresponsible with his hybridizing. If your going to make a claim, back it up with the reasons you have for believing your claim to be true. Does Vinman release his hybrids to unsuspecting people as non-hybrids or is he honest if he gives or sells such a hybrid to another? In short, does Vinman seek to actively deceive with his hybrids? Vinman, "It is a f2 50/50 cross and looks like a pure gray band. I don't want to sell her to anyone and I don't just want to cross her to anything that my will make young that look pure." Yeah, that to me does not support your statement that Vinman is unethical or otherwise irresponsible in his hybridizing efforts.
Now personally, I know many hybridizers that would say that Vinman not crossing his hybrids back to parents is limiting his true potential as a hybridizer as well as limiting his eventual phenotypical expressions in his hybrids. Backcrossing, sibling crossing, and outcrossing are all valuable tools in a hybridizers arsenal. Many might argue that there are hybrids that may have something hidden in them that will not be discovered or magnified enough to warrant the release of that hybrid, but further working with that hybrid may elicit a stronger response or a more noteworthy phenotype to arise. Some genes have a compounding effect or a synergistic effect on each other.... some gene combinations between different species can even elicit phenotypes that did not exist in either species. I'm talking about changes that are not merely a blending of traits, but traits that are completely differently expressed when mixed from different species. I'm off my soap box, but for what its worth... Vinman is ethical in his hybridizing to the detriment of his eventual hybrid creations if you ask me as he is stunting his true potential by missing out on crosses that look too much like one of the original parent species. This is my personal opinion. I realize you may agree or disagree with me and we can leave it at that. It can not be argued though that sibling crosses or inbreeding in general is a fast way to uncover the good and the bad so to speak in an animal as inbreeding results in increased homozygosity. Someone that utilizes this method of breeding to any great extent must be willing to cull with a ferocity that is often lacking in other hybridizers, but it is also a good way to remove unwanted genes as well. With all of that rambling now done... I salute Vinman for his efforts even though I don't agree with how he hybridizes as I personally think he is stunting his efforts.

Brother, stop arguing with this person your only giving him attention he wants so badly. People know me here very well. Some like me and some hate me. The fact that I have always stated there is a right and a wrong way to breed hybrids. If he wants to talk out of his pie hole so be it . Thats what you do when you don't do your home work. There are plenty on here that talk out of their butt hole. All my writings on hybrids say the same thing about creating something different and not to make a animal that can be taken for a pure animal. I have posted many times about castrating males and culling female hybrids that look pure and how bad it is to take a 50/50 hybrid and back breed it to one of the Ssp that was used in the cross to make a 3/4.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Vinman, I have read a bit on your hybridizing methods and I'm sure there is much more I could stand to learn from you. Suffice it to say I don't agree with everything I know about your methods, I can not say that there is a single thing about your hybridizing efforts and desires that I can not say is beyond reproach.
The problem you have with some people is that they continue to push and push claiming intellectual superiority while at the same time bashing yours. They are sometimes smart enough to push you over the line that they toe very well if you let them. So, I must confess that it is often a fruitless conversation with people such as this, but there is always a glimmer of hope. Still, does that glimmer of hope outweigh the cost? Again, thanks for posting the obvious.

 

[Vinman]

Blutengel
OK new name, you know we have butted heads before. Had some bad blowouts. I know I started my fair share of trouble here in the past. All the Piss wars. Where does it get you no where. I know most of my harsh post were not to start trouble but ended up getting me in piss wars. It seems this person starts trouble on purpose. You all got to learn how to diffuse it . Just ignore him every time he post no matter how bad you want to respond. spread the word and soon they wont be posting anymore because no one will be talking to them.

 

[Vinman]

Vinman, I have read a bit on your hybridizing methods and I'm sure there is much more I could stand to learn from you. Suffice it to say I don't agree with everything I know about your methods, I can not say that there is a single thing about your hybridizing efforts and desires that I can not say is beyond reproach.
The problem you have with some people is that they continue to push and push claiming intellectual superiority while at the same time bashing yours. They are sometimes smart enough to push you over the line that they toe very well if you let them. So, I must confess that it is often a fruitless conversation with people such as this, but there is always a glimmer of hope. Still, does that glimmer of hope outweigh the cost? Again, thanks for posting the obvious.

I see you head but with them often. Just let them keep talking but don't reply to them just talk to others on the post. I'm sure in time they wont bother because they wont be getting attention they crave so much. I have my bad feelings about hybrids. It has ruined the Hobie because of greed and the fact people don't know what they are doing and end up tainting the pure stock. I know why some are so up tight about hybrids. I'm on both side of the coin. If your going to mess with making hybrids then do it right. if your going to make 3/4 of something then you better have the guts to kill of the females and castrate the males of any of those offspring that come out looking pure. If you can't do this then you have no business making hybrids. this is the problem. people want to see the outcome but don't have the heart to do what has to be done or they are greedy and say well it cost me all that money and time taking care of these animals I need to make back my money and they go and pollute the pure stock. That same hurricane that blew apart the wholesaler and seeded the everglades with pythons and I sure there were hybrid colubrids there too. It also blew down homes of snake breeders and scattered hybrid colubrids all over Fl. There was one breeder that had hundreds of hybrids in Fl and his home was destroyed. You know some of those hybrids made it and are most likely breeding with pure corns & kings in the wilds of Florida. You have to look at that side of the coin to to see why there is so much hatred for hybrids

 

[DMong]

Sorry for your loss Vinman! Hoped to see all grown up gorgeous critters!

And DMong, it seems to me every time you show up in a thread, you are provoking an arguement or already in it. Or did I just forget about all your nice and valuable comments because your trolling posts are so obnoxious they just erase them in my mind?

See, there is a huge difference between me simply laughing and the personal insults Mr. Vinman and you are saying directly to me, and especially after Nancy asked for them to stop.

You are confusing my stating facts here with things that you don't particularly want to hear because they don't correspond and fit in with your personal views and agenda regarding hybridization and crossing. I also noticed that you popped in out of nowhere just so you could add your little obnoxious and insulting seal of approval and comradery here.

A big round of "high-fives" are in order for you guys telling me how things really are.. :roflmao:

 

[DMong]

Brother, stop arguing with this person your only giving him attention he wants so badly. People know me here very well. Some like me and some hate me. The fact that I have always stated there is a right and a wrong way to breed hybrids. If he wants to talk out of his pie hole so be it . Thats what you do when you don't do your home work. There are plenty on here that talk out of their butt hole. All my writings on hybrids say the same thing about creating something different and not to make a animal that can be taken for a pure animal. I have posted many times about castrating males and culling female hybrids that look pure and how bad it is to take a 50/50 hybrid and back breed it to one of the Ssp that was used in the cross to make a 3/4.

Oh Mr. Vinman (the hybridizer god), for you of all people to claim I am talking out of my "pie-hole", or "butt-hole" regarding a so-called lack of "homework" is as ridiculous as your entire thread. I would clean up my mouth too if I were you my friend.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Vinman, now your post I can relate to. It is well put together and makes logical sense. Hybrids do escape into the genetic pool at large. That is another issue altogether, but a very real one.
To be a good hybridizer you have to be willing and able to ruthlessly cull. You have to be on the look out for that rare combination of genes as well as the rare mutation. How many snakes must you hatch before you notice a single mutation that is new? How many snakes must you hatch before your new hybrid line breeds true? The earlier you can identify any markers that may point to something being distinct or novel the better. That is always a given in any hybridizing attempt.

 

[Vinman]

OK guys this is the female I was talking about she is a 50/50 corn X gray band second gen cross. I can tell she is not a pure gray band but there are a lot of people that would think she is a pure grayband and might cross her back to a grayband. I wish my cornduran would mate with her I think I'm going to try artificial insemination next year between her and my cornduran

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

See, there is a huge difference between me simply laughing and the personal insults Mr. Vinman and you are saying directly to me, and especially after Nancy asked for them to stop.

You are confusing my stating facts here with things that you don't particularly want to hear because they don't correspond and fit in with your personal views and agenda regarding hybridization and crossing. I also noticed that you popped in out of nowhere just so you could add your little obnoxious and insulting seal of approval and comradery here.

A big round of "high-fives" are in order for you guys telling me how things really are.. :roflmao:

I'm sorry, but laughing at someone is making a personal insult to that person. I would go into more detail about how exactly that is so, but I don't think I need to explain that laughing at someone is denigrating that person and their ideas. Belittling another person is belittling them... regardless of whether it is a gesture, facial expression, verbal retort, or inflammatory remark.

 

[DMong]

Vinman, now your post I can relate to. It is well put together and makes logical sense. Hybrids do escape into the genetic pool at large. That is another issue altogether, but a very real one.
To be a good hybridizer you have to be willing and able to ruthlessly cull. You have to be on the look out for that rare combination of genes as well as the rare mutation. How many snakes must you hatch before you notice a single mutation that is new? How many snakes must you hatch before your new hybrid line breeds true? The earlier you can identify any markers that may point to something being distinct or novel the better. That is always a given in any hybridizing attempt.

"To be a good hybridizer you have to be willing and able to ruthlessly cull"

oh, really?...hmmm, OR simply breed real stuff and not have to worry about killing anything.

I almost forgot, I am the one that is WAAAY out of line here. :roflmao:


Well, at least I know Vinman acknowledges they get into everything under the sun because of the animals that are very close looking to authentic species/ssp. I see it all the time myself.....and I do mean ALL the time!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Your 50/50 second generation outcrossed to a cornduran sounds promising. Quick question, is this the only surviving snake from that cross? I'm asking as I'm interested in seeing the different phenotypes that you may have gotten from this cross as well as perhaps seeing if some reduced fertility is at play here.

 

[DMong]

I'm sorry, but laughing at someone is making a personal insult to that person. I would go into more detail about how exactly that is so, but I don't think I need to explain that laughing at someone is denigrating that person and their ideas. Belittling another person is belittling them... regardless of whether it is a gesture, facial expression, verbal retort, or inflammatory remark.

ohh!, I get it, so the really personal insults they both said to me are all fine and good. Thanks, because for a second there I thought I didn't quite understand it all.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Snakes eat other snakes? Yes? There you have your culling machine my friend. Some use snakes to cull fancy mice. Yes, breeders of fancy mice actually sell their inferior mice for use as snake food. Culling is a term most serious hybridizers and even line-breeders understand and use.