cutting mice before feeding

[rhinecat]

Wow, how intriguing!

Hurley, have you tried using the statistical software packages like SPSS or Minitab? You don't actually need to know a whole lot about stats to make them work, and they put out all the science-y info people want to see.

 

[Hurley]

Yes, each clutch was evenly divided into the 4 groups. The groups started out at n=15/16 from 3 clutches. Because of the strict "no more than 1 refusal ever, even with shedding" rule, the numbers that completed all 15 feedings with never more than one refusal (offering food every 5 to 7 days) ended up pretty evenly distributed across clutches at n=5/6.

Here's the messy graph with all cases showing. Red = control, Blue = 2 cuts, Green = 2 cuts plus cavity perforation, Yellow = 4 cuts.

(forgive the 1 through 16 on this graph, I didn't assign the first entry to 0 which was the prefeeding / hatch weight)

You can see the trend, even with the busy graph. You've got some of the lower end of the test groups ending up lower than the top 2 in the red group, but the trend is visible, even on this graph. Those areas where you see drops in some hatchlings' weights generally coincided with shedding and skipping one meal.

For comparison, here is the graph again showing the averages of the groups and purple = averages of all test groups for comparison to the controls.

This makes things a little cleaner and easy to see.


I am definitely interested in running this study again to ensure it can be duplicated and am interested in anyone wishing to run the same study independently on their own hatchlings. Feel free to contact me at [email protected]. The results were pretty dramatic. Much more so than I expected to see, quite honestly. I don't doubt that the experiment can be duplicated with similar results, but I would like to have more numbers. You can always use more numbers.

 

[Hurley]

I'm actually getting SPSS loaded up on my computer here sometime in the next couple weeks. I'm working with a statistician for my other project, but throwing this one in as a sideline to get publishable stats.

I'll update things as it progresses. I ran standard deviations and things, but I just don't trust Excel for stat work, so I'm waiting on the SPSS program.

 

[Sinsational]

I know this is a VERY old post, but I cannot see the chart, which I would love to take a look at. Does anyone have a copy of it?

 

[Nroc]

I cut them all.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Well, I had been great about cutting the pinkies for the first several months, but about 3 weeks ago things got very busy for me...I was rushing through feedings, and didn't cut the pinkies/fuzzies for several feedings. Over that two week period, out of my 44 snakes, I had 5 regurges (I had had none when I was cutting the mice).
As soon as I realized what was happening I went back to cutting the mice and this is now the second feeding with no regurges.

Does anyone else cut the mice before feeding??

Huh, That is odd! For months I fed without cutting, ok more like a year, then my little amel mot het caramel stripe regurged and ever since I have been cutting. No issues in any of my snakes and their poos look much healthier too. I find it very strange since nothing would cut the rodents in the wild. . . have corns been handled by men long enough to really need this kind of assistance? I just don't think so . . . :shrugs:

 

[carnivorouszoo]

In the old days, I used to feed live prey exclusively. I remember that some of the mice got a little torn up in the feeding process. I wonder if the snakes' tiny teeth did enough tearing to make it analogous to the cutting of f/t by a keeper. I would think that the act of pulling the prey into their jaws would cause little tooth penetration into the carcass, but subduing prey may be a rougher affair. I doubt that my thought is correct, but it's just a thought... :shrugs:

I stand corrected! Looks like "cutting" may indeed happen in the wild. Never mind about my mumblings then

 

[Jadie.Glitch]

I'd like to see the charts and examples too... this is very interesting.

I also have a question to add: I breed my own food and feed pre-killed (if they have their eyes open they get a good, clean, thump so they aren't a danger to my snakes)... So once they've passed I would have no problem cutting, but what would I do with pinks and fuzzies? I don't know if I could thump something that small, and I KNOW I could never cut something that was alive.

I know it's not "cake and daisies" being eaten alive, but I don't feel so bad because the snake is doing it, which happens all the time in the wild, and none of my snakes are "lolly-gaggers". They all get it done and over with and don't play around with it.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or should I just continue to feed as-is and only cut the one that I can make sure have died first?

 

[Ntkufreak]

I'm glad this got bumped - requesting the chart again as well, if anyone still has it.

 

[Jenn_Tigercat]

Hmmm this is really interesting. I may have to cut the pinks for my little girl and see if it helps her to start growing. I would love to see the charts as well.

 

[Sinsational]

I'd like to see the charts and examples too... this is very interesting.

I also have a question to add: I breed my own food and feed pre-killed (if they have their eyes open they get a good, clean, thump so they aren't a danger to my snakes)... So once they've passed I would have no problem cutting, but what would I do with pinks and fuzzies? I don't know if I could thump something that small, and I KNOW I could never cut something that was alive.

I know it's not "cake and daisies" being eaten alive, but I don't feel so bad because the snake is doing it, which happens all the time in the wild, and none of my snakes are "lolly-gaggers". They all get it done and over with and don't play around with it.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or should I just continue to feed as-is and only cut the one that I can make sure have died first?

Hmm Jadie, I would maybe recommend a CO2 chamber? F/K the pinkies and fuzzies and then cut them?

 

[scmartin27]

Hello all, I'm here to dig up the dead! Can anyone actually provide a link to the study? The charts are not showing up anymore, it being 20 years later & all. I want to see THE study if anyone can find it. I read "SAC newsletter" but not sure exactly hat that is. Thanks!