Disparate advice!

[Arby]

Hi all,

I've only just got a couple of corn snakes, Ammy (a female Hypo) and Taka (a male Butter Motley), but have been doing quite a bit of reading and research beforehand - websites, books, and asking people.

The thing that I've found is that a lot of people have completely opposite opinions about how to look after the corn snakes. I was just wondering if people here who know could maybe have a pop at these questions as well, to help me expand my knowledge and confirm or disprove what people have been saying?

Issues encountered so far:

Question: How often should I feed the snake?
Answers I've recieved:

• Weekly
• Every 3-4 weeks
• Monthly
• Every 5 days when they're young, going up to every 3-4 weeks at adult age.

Question: What kind of substrate should I use?
Answers I've recieved:

• Woodchips (supplied with my viv)
• Aspen
• Sand

Note: I now have all three of the above due to different advice. Which should I use? Sand = Reptilite calcium substrate

Question: I want to breed my pair. Should I bring them up together?
Answers I've recieved:

• Yes, throughout their life
• No, keep them seperate until you want them to breed
• Bring them up together, seperate them after 6-9 months when upgrading into their new 4ft viv (just move one) for a couple of days, and then match them together again.

Question: I have a snake cave that came with moss. Should it have moss in it?
Answers I've recieved:

• Yes
• Yes, but replace the default moss with Spaghnum(sp?) moss
• No, they don't need anything in the cave
• No, put sand/Aspen in there

A couple of other Qs:

1. My hachlings are currently in a tank about 16" by 12" by 6-1/2" (WxDxH). I also have a 4ft viv - will that be big enough for two fully grown corn snakes?

2. Is it ok to fill up the viv with "things" (water dickes, bark, hidey holes, etc), or should they have a large basking area?

3. Should I moisten the substrate with a little fine water mist?


Phew! A lot of questions, I'm sorry ^_^;
Thank you very much for reading this post, and I hope you guys/girls have a better idea of the answers to these than some of the shop staff/websites/books have so far .

Thanks all,
Arby (James).

 

[Double het]

Every 5 - 7 days when young. Once a week when there older and every other week when adult.

Woodchips and aspen are good. Don't use sand.

If you want to breed only put them together at mating time. If you always keep them together the female may get pregnant to young and could die. Also, you might not want to breed them every year.

You can put damp moss in there yes. They will love it especially when in shed.

 

[Rich in KY]

Hi all,

I've only just got a couple of corn snakes, Ammy (a female Hypo) and Taka (a male Butter Motley), but have been doing quite a bit of reading and research beforehand - websites, books, and asking people.

The thing that I've found is that a lot of people have completely opposite opinions about how to look after the corn snakes. I was just wondering if people here who know could maybe have a pop at these questions as well, to help me expand my knowledge and confirm or disprove what people have been saying?

Issues encountered so far:

Question: How often should I feed the snake?
Answers I've recieved:

• Weekly
• Every 3-4 weeks
• Monthly
• Every 5 days when they're young, going up to every 3-4 weeks at adult age.

Here is a link to the "Munson Plan":

http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50106

If you follow it, Ammy and Taka should be healthy and not get overweight.

Question: What kind of substrate should I use?
Answers I've recieved:

• Woodchips (supplied with my viv)
• Aspen
• Sand

Note: I now have all three of the above due to different advice. Which should I use? Sand = Reptilite calcium substrate

Sand is not recommended at all for corn snakes. This can cause an impaction. Many scented woodchips can be toxic to the corn snake. I would, and do, use aspen. It is easy to clean and safe for your snakes.

Question: I want to breed my pair. Should I bring them up together?
Answers I've recieved:

• Yes, throughout their life
• No, keep them seperate until you want them to breed
• Bring them up together, seperate them after 6-9 months when upgrading into their new 4ft viv (just move one) for a couple of days, and then match them together again.

No, separate them. Having them co-habbed, you cannot control when they breed. If they breed too early, it could be deadly for Ammy. Breeding is very hard on female corn snakes. If an immature corn snakes gets pregnant, it can kill her.

Question: I have a snake cave that came with moss. Should it have moss in it?
Answers I've recieved:

• Yes
• Yes, but replace the default moss with Spaghnum(sp?) moss
• No, they don't need anything in the cave
• No, put sand/Aspen in there

You can keep moss in it. A "moist hide" aids with the shedding process. However the snakes will need more hides without moss.

1. My hachlings are currently in a tank about 16" by 12" by 6-1/2" (WxDxH). I also have a 4ft viv - will that be big enough for two fully grown corn snakes?

Co-habbing corn snakes is not recommended.

2. Is it ok to fill up the viv with "things" (water dickes, bark, hidey holes, etc), or should they have a large basking area?

I would highly recommend filling up the viv with "things". Corn snakes need to feel safe and have plenty of places to hide. It can be simple things like empty toilet paper rolls.

3. Should I moisten the substrate with a little fine water mist?

Only when the snake is getting ready to shed. You need to make sure there is a water dish with fresh water at all times.

Phew! A lot of questions, I'm sorry ^_^;
Thank you very much for reading this post, and I hope you guys/girls have a better idea of the answers to these than some of the shop staff/websites/books have so far .

Thanks all,
Arby (James).

No worries James. If you have more questions, feel free to ask. It only shows you have Ammy and Taka's health in mind.

 

[Lennycorn]

Starting from the top
1. Depends hatchlings I think every 5-7 days
yearling...7 days. Adults....every 10 days
2. Woodchip or prefer aspen. Which is hard to come by on your side.
No Ceder. NO SAND
3.No, keep them separate until you want them to breed.
4. Moss is use for a humid hide . When their is a shedding issue. Save it.
But don't use it yet.

Other Q's
5.A 4ft viv is good for one snake. A 20L is the min, for an adult. Separate your snake that are in the smaller Viv.
6.yes that make it feel more secure for the snakes. Less stress.
7. Misting is use when you need to raise the humidity during shed cycle.

 

[Lennycorn]

Oh yeah...
Correct answer cost five dollars
Wrong answer are two dollars :dunce:
But dumb looks are still free. rofl:

 

[Arby]

Thanks for all your replies people
Just a couple of points that I need to clear up:

By "Sand" I don't actually mean literal sand. What I have here is calcium substrate by Reptilite - it says it's good for snakes and such, and the girl in the shop specifically recommended that above all else, saying that it helps them with the shedding process better than Aspen.

The snakes are 4 months old (Taka) and 2 months old (Ammy) - are they likely to start breeding soon? As everyone had said that having them together was fine, we only planned for one space and one box so we need a couple of days to plan more space and get another set of gear for the other snake.

We had also been told they are ok to keep together until they need to be moved into the big snake (6-9 months from now), and then to just seperate them for a few days before moving the second snake in, to induce breeding - is this incorrect?

Thank you for all your advice once again .

 

[Rich in KY]

Thanks for all your replies people
Just a couple of points that I need to clear up:

By "Sand" I don't actually mean literal sand. What I have here is calcium substrate by Reptilite - it says it's good for snakes and such, and the girl in the shop specifically recommended that above all else, saying that it helps them with the shedding process better than Aspen.

The repti-sand is good for some snakes, but not corns. Some people have experienced impactions from the sand clogging the vent on their snakes.

The snakes are 4 months old (Taka) and 2 months old (Ammy) - are they likely to start breeding soon? As everyone had said that having them together was fine, we only planned for one space and one box so we need a couple of days to plan more space and get another set of gear for the other snake.

They will not breed in the next few days. It is possible some time next spring for them to breed, That would be about 2 years too soon for them. Make sure until you separate them that you feed them in separate feeding containers.

We had also been told they are ok to keep together until they need to be moved into the big snake (6-9 months from now), and then to just seperate them for a few days before moving the second snake in, to induce breeding - is this incorrect?

As soon as they have the instinct to breed, they will.

 

[Double het]

The substrate doesn't really have anything to do with the shedding process other then drying out of humidifying the envirmoment. Reptile sand is good for some reptiles and probably other snakes need sand but to dry for corns.

I wouldn't worry about breeding right now other then making sure they don't. They can breed at 1 year old but she would need to be at least 3 years. So i would split them at 12 month latest!

 

[Arby]

Thank again for your answers people!

In terms of seperating them, would it be ok to just seperate them for the spring and then put them back together? I've heard that they get lonely without a viv-mate.

I'll have to see if my shop will exchange thesand back for Aspen.. and maybe advise that specific sales staff member that her advice on sand is not sound!

 

[Double het]

Snakes do not get lonely. They aren't social. I would not put a male/female together.

 

[Lennycorn]

In terms of seperating them, would it be ok to just seperate them for the spring and then put them back together? I've heard that they get lonely without a viv-mate.

My advice to you would be separate them as soon as possable.
This way you don't have to worry about stress, or which one pooped THAT or illiness.

 

[hayley13]

Corn snakes are supposedly solitary creatures and i think they can become quite hostile to one anther even hurt or kill the other! co habitation is a massive issue on this site you wont have any probs getting opinions from the other members!!

 

[cka]

You can, under the right, and controlled, circumstances cohab them; there's just no real reason to in terms of raising a pair (or more) of corns as future breeders...I keep them separate, on aspen or newspaper for substrate...

The store clerk may have raised (or seen raised) healthy corns on some sand substrate...it makes for a neat set up when used with animals who'll really thrive on it; not just ones that do by chance...A thick bed of shredded aspen makes for real easy clean ups, and corns love to burrow thru it and hide...

 

[Arby]

Heh, I've just been reading a load of other threads on co-habbing - people have a lot of strong opinions!

We'll probably seperate them, even though it seems a shame as they actually like being together. However, when they come to breed (in 3 years or so), is it ok to move them in together permanently then? Like I say, they seem to get on so I don't think they'd eat each other, they're about the same size anyway.

Also, in the shop where we bought these, the hachlings were kept seperate in their own little pots, but the adults were all kept together - 4 or 5 to a viv (big vivs though), and they seemed fine. So are they in the wrong? Or do they just know something "non-shopkeepers" don't?

Personally it seems not so much like "Corn snakes living together will cause a problem", but more like "Corn snakes living together may increase the chances of problems"

However, since their health is at stake, I guess they should be moved. It just seems a shame as they love sticking together, even though people are saying they are solitary animals, I guess any animal kept in captivity will long for a companion after a while...

It would be nice if there was a survay-statistic on the ratio of snakes kept together doing well vs snakes kept together having problems. I can understand the problem with becoming egg bound though - is it likely they would try to mate next spring?

Substrate-wise - I'll go with Aspen. Hopefully the shop will exchange the sand stuff over. We'll have to find the space for another tank, and eventually viv as well... Assuming we can find the room >_<.

 

[starsevol]

"Shopkeepers" usually do what they do to "market their wares" in the most cost-effective way possible. Many times, they know or care little about the needs of those wares.

I would say keeping adults together is as bad or worse than keeping hatchlings together. Hatchlings may be more apt to eat each other but adults suffer stress you can't see, and in a mixed sex situation a male will constantly harass a female to mate, and she can't get away from it.

I know that co-habbing is more common "across the pond", but it is rather frowned upon in the states.
Co-habbing (by neccessity once for a short time) also cause the death of one of the most beautiful snakes I had ever seen, my Kelsey.

 

[starsevol]

Besides, I've said this before and I'll say it again....If corn snakes love being together so much, why don't they run in herds in nature? In nature, they have a choice, right?

 

[Arby]

That's fair enough, and there are certainly cons to co-habbing, just as there are cons to everything - I guess every snake is different too. I'm sure some snakes don't get on and would eat or attack each other, just as some snakes (as I've read on these forums) actively search each other out and love being with each other.

Also, how can you know if the corn is stressed? And as far as mating goes, we WANT them to breed, although of course not if it is going to stress out the female (or either, actually).

I've very sorry to hear about Kelsey, but I would hate to think that one bad event would change the minds of an entire group of people when there might be genuine pros to co-habbing.. Of course it can go bad, but then can't anything? However, since so many people are saying it's not a good idea, for the health of our snakes I will seperate them anyway. I just want to make sure it's not just the case of a bad experiance or two that will effect the happiness of my snakes - since all I want for them is the best, and for them to be as happy as they can be.

In answer to your second post, I can't prove or disprove, especially as Corn Snakes aren't wild animals here, but I can quote the following from another thread here, which seems to make sense:

As for the solitary argument, there's always the possibility that they are solitary in the wild because they don't want to have to compete for food supplies. They do brumate/hibernate in groups. When I've had to cohab hatchlings, they never showed any aggression toward each other and would always be in the same hide, even though they were given multiple hides in the same temperature zones. Basically, no one can say that they like having company, but no one can say they don't either, as no one has yet to figure out how to actually communicate with them (beyond trying to interpret actions and behaviors, which is guessing at best).

(Duff, http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56857&highlight=cohabbing&page=5)

However, I still thank you for your input and for taking the time to read and reply to me - having different opinions, whilst it can lead to conflict and clash of opinions, can help expand anyone's knowledge and help them make an informed choice for the best of their snakes' health and happiness, which is of course the most important thing.

 

[Arby]

Addendum:
This may not be relevent, and I'm sure there will be a lot of counters of "Oh but they would do that because of this, that and the other", but,

We went out today and got a new snake cave.. Which I lined with Aspen. We keep the doors slightly closed at night since they seem to come out more then. We just looked and both Ammy and Taka's heads are popping out of the new snake cave hole, and they look very content together.

Just posting my observations . So please don't flame me too much haha.

 

[starsevol]

See Arby, the stress you can see is that ...kind of jerky dance that 2 males will do if put together. But there is also stress you can't see. At least I think so!
Plus if one regurges you can't figure out which one.
I'm not the only one who has lost a snake to co-habbing, I know on this site there is at least one other person but I can't remember who!

Thank you for your kind words about Kelsey. She was missexed by the breeder as a male (he went by tail shape, and at the time I didnt know how to pop them). I had a heating element in a rack fry and nearly burn down the house, so I housed her (him) with Sniper til I could get a new cage. She became eggbound and died.

Sorry to all of you who have heard this, I know I'm repeating myself.

Arby, I think it all comes down to this....
while co-habbing HAS killed snakes and/or shortened their lifespans, it is rare that things go THAT bad...
but housing snakes singly has never killed one yet!!
(well, except that amel hatching of Kathy Love's who died from eating ITSELF!)

 

[jazzgeek]

As I've opined before, Projection Ain't Just A Thing At The Movies.

It's human nature to "anthropomorphize" our pets, but a reptile with a tiny little brain isn't cognizant of "human" emotions such as happiness, frustration, contentment, and so on.

If a snake is "content", it's because they've found a situation wherein they won't be eaten by some other animal......today. If two (or more) snakes are cohabbed and are sharing the same hide, it's more about efficiency in maintaining body heat than it is about being snugglebunnies.

My two cents.....and welcome to the forums!

regards,
jazz