Please don't make the mistake of assuming editors, copyists, printers, and publishers have any idea what an author is talking about. They proof read to catch spelling and grammatical errors, and that's it. Factual information is not researched nor checked by anyone other than the author and his "crew". All factual information is solely the mistake of the author. MOST books dealing with animal husbandry will make a disclaimer as such, stating that all mistakes are the sole fault of the author, but all accurate information is the result of such-and-such's research. It's standard practice.
Fair enough. I'm no expert on these subject obviously, but I would assume that if all else fails, at least a shop wouldn't stock a book that was factually incorrect. But then, if the shopkeepers don't know what to look for anyway...
It has been proven. Snakes are known to be solitary. By logical default, if they were "social" they wouldn't be solitary. There is no social structure, because there is no "society". You cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that a social structure does not exist, only that snakes are, by choice, solitary. Given that they choose to live solitary lives aside from seasonal breeding, it can be reasonably assumed that they would choose the same in captivity, if given a choice. We know it to be a fact that they are solitary creatures that do not live in family units or packs. But that doesn't make you stupid anymore than knowing that information makes someone smart. It's merely a matter of information access.
I agree - they are known to be solitary. I don't insist that I'm correct regarding the fact that they don't LIKE being together, I'm just saying that without proper proof, no-one can say for sure whether they like co-habbing. However, as you say, they don't co-hab by choice in nature, so one can reasonable assume that they don't "like" to co-hab. But then, as they say, to Assume makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
People ASSUME that the big bang theory is correct, but if some-how they were proven wrong, then they would have to re-write all the books, so to speak. People can only assume things given what information they have, which is what everyone here is doing. I just personally believe in thinking outside the box regardless
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You could perform a small scale experiment. Take an enclosure that is 6 feet long. Split it in half without creating a physical barrier, and create 2 identical habitats at either end of the enclosure. Now place 2 snakes inside. What happens? I haven't performed the experiment, but I would wager that the two snakes would choose to stay at opposite ends of the enclosure, if all resources are equally available and identical to each snake.
I could do that, but the complexities of heating it in two places simultaneously would make that tricky. Besides, many things can affect snake behaviour - if they stayed separate, it could be ASSUMED that they want to be apart, but then again it could just be a slight variation of the environmental factors at either end, where one snake prefers a certain condition and the other, another.
Again...you cannot prove a negative. You also cannot prove that they DO desire company. What CAN be proven is that they do not, in fact, seek out company outside of seasonal breeding instincts. This is the only aspect of their behaviour in this instance that can be either proven or disproven. If they were known to actively seek out companionship in the wild, we could reasonably assume they would do the same in captivity. Since this is not the case...we can reasonably assume the converse.
See my comments above on this
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Snake stress in captivity is a fact. The causes are many and varied, but among the proven causes is co-habitation. Co-habbed snakes often display signs of stress ranging from small scale infections to refusals and regurgitations...all of which disappear upon removal to a singular cage. These are experiments that can be performed for your own sake, if you choose to follow through with them. If you find different results in your own experiments, so be it. Just be sure to have solid controls and identical conditions, should you decide to make you findings public on a forum of this nature, because people will try with every ounce of logical reason they have to debunk your findings and find a reason of their own why your experiments should be invalidated. I say that for your own benefit, not to be a wiseguy.
I wouldn't perform those investigation because I care for the health of my snakes, although one could say "How do you know that infections/regurges/etc are caused by co-habbing, not some other environmental factor?", bearing in mind that moving them into separate tanks is causing an environmental change for at least one of the snakes, but I digress.
I know well that people will try their hardest to disprove any findings, which is another reason that I wouldn't bother, and the reason why I'd prefer to stop discussing co-habbing here - it's obviously that most people here (including myself) are quite set in their opinions, and aren't going to change them just because someone else disagrees. Furthermore, people seem to like pushing their points and agendas on others for the purpose of "enlightening" those who "resist" their opinions, or the common consensus - I'm not saying you here, I'm just talking in general. With this many people with different views each trying to push their opinions, and no-one backing down, it can only lead to flames
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As regards snakes and emotions...we cannot prove their emotional capabilities because we are not sure where emotion dwells in the mind. What can be proven is that the snake's brain does not have the capacity for cognitive reasoning. Again...this creates the reasonable assumption that without the ability to think on a deeper cognitive level, there is no emotion. It goes back to what can be known...and that is the fact that cornsnakes are solitary creatures by choice in the wild, and have been observed to leave the company of another snake, rather than share space and resources...the exact opposite of seeking out company, they actively leave the presence of another corn.
Again, see my earlier comments. This is all fair enough, and probably even correct, but the key word is "assume". Just because something is assumed, doesn't mean it's correct
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I can't prove my beliefs either, and for that reason I don't tell people "Snakes have feelings! Keep them together!". I just choose to have my own opinions and beliefs, but as a result of expanding my knowledge on this forum via the help of all those who have advised me, and many other, older threads, I have decided to separate my snakes anyway, since the pros probably do outweigh the cons.
With that said...it has been well documented throughout the animal kingdom in a wide variety of species that a limitation of resources will create a system of forced cooperation where animals will share resources with another that would otherwise be an enemy or prey. Crocodiles and hippos will routinely share a small watering hole so that all will survive during drought conditions. However, when water is plentiful, they are known to be enemies and compete violently for resource control. The same can be assumed on a smaller scale in captivity with cornsnakes. When resources are limited, a begrudged truce can be reached wherein the animals cooperate in as much as they share resources, rather than compete. This is not the same as "being friends" or "desiring company". This is a necessary survival skill that all wild animals display at different levels during times of limited resources.
I agree with this. However, just because other animals do this, that doesn't mean that corn snakes do. We can assume that this is the case, however. But again, it's just an assumption (if not an unreasonable one).
FWIW...I am not trying to argue with you. I really don't care how you keep your animals, because, ultimately, they are your animals. I am just providing you with facts behind the reasons. There are certain facts that you have inaccurately interpreted in your decisions, and providing you with more accurate information may help to make your decisions easier. With that said...I AM glad you have already decided that the risks outweigh the benefits...
Always with respect--
Well, thank you. I'm not trying to argue with people either, I'm just making my point that my opinions are my opinions and currently my beliefs can't be disproven. But, since the general consensus is that keeping corns together is a bad idea, I've chosen (with all your help) to not take the chance of keeping them together - even if they "miss" each other, or feel lonely, in my opinion it's better that than having them get ill, stressed, or die because of a bad decision or negligence of my duty of care
Oh...the sand as substrate issue...
I assume you are referring to an item known as Calci-sand. This is one of the worst substrates for cornsnakes. This sand is not round, and is, infact, jagged, and acts like tiny little "puzzle pieces" if ingested, creating large blockages and impactions, which can be fatal.
There are other sands that are smooth and round(like play sand for a sand box, or beach sand), that can be used with less risk of impaction, but they are too dry for the necessary humidity levels that a cornsnake needs.
Both types of sand are known to become lodged in the belly scutes and under the scales of snakes and cause infections that are difficult to treat.
FWIW...cornsnakes are native to the Southeastern United States. This area of the U.S. is forested, humid, and covered in conifer and deciduous trees. The ground is made up of rich, loamy soils and leaf litter, not desert sand. Just take a look through a U.S. book at Georgia or Florida, and looks at the pictures of the wilderness areas, and you'll see what I mean. Maple and pine trees, cypress swamps, thick, humid forests with heavy leaf litter and extremely fertile soil.
The one I bought was the rounded kind (it made a big deal of it on the packet), but point taken. The thing that sold me to it was the sales advisor (who dealt soely with the reptiles section, so one would assume that she knew what she is doing). She told me that she owned corn snakes, and they love the calci-sand and that it's the best thing for them, more so than Aspen. She didn't say anything about it getting stuck in their scales or etc, but said that it's good for them to eat. She also said that
it is just like their natural environment, as corn snakes come from dry, deserty regions, NOT tropical regions.
Since she was so forceful on her points I didn't want to argue, but I already knew that corns came from Florida, and I knew the conditions there, which are certainly not dry or deserty... So I knew she was wrong on that point.
Velvet - Yes, that is my experience now, that they don't seem to know what they are doing. In terms of the cost issues, I didn't want to co-hab for that reason, I just felt that they would be happier together. I figured - fish are happier in shoals, Gazelle are happier in herds.. Why wouldn't snakes be happier together?
(What do you call a group of snakes, anyway?)
Susan - Hm. Well, I know what those terms mean. I have read in my book about incubation, and read and bookmarked a forum article on here about brumation. I've read a little about breeding, although the specifics of genes and creating certain morphs confuses me a lot (a lot more science than I was expecting!), so I guess you could say.. "Kinda". I'm not an expert on those things, but I figure I don't have to know about breeding for another three years anyway, so there is plenty of time to learn. However, I am eager to learn if you can recommend any specific resource.
I would especially appreciate something explaining genetics in layman’s terms - thinks like, what morphs produce certain types of hatchlings, recessive genes, and some of the terms like heterozygous and homozygous
. I have read up these genetics issues in a couple of my books and on the FAQ thingy in the breeding forum here, but it's quite confusing for an "average joe" like me. (I'm not a biology major by any stretch of the imagination, but obviously these issues are important if I want to breed, and, more importantly, if I wanted to turn breeding snakes into a second source of income, which has flashed my mind a few times. After all, who wouldn't want to get a job doing what they love?
wade - Thanks!. I did feel a bit like that, yes. I have also read other threads where people have taken the same stance as me and been berated for it, so I did/do feel a little defensive, especially when it feels like people are trying to push their beliefs and opinions on me. But I agree, I have received some awesome advice here, hence why I paid for contributor membership - I wanted to give a little something back to the community that advised me, and helped me avoid some pitfalls. Obviously my knowledge doesn't really help anyone here. Unless you need any advice setting up your Cisco routers
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kathylove - Thank you
. And yeah, I've heard that some things, such as co-habbing, are ok to try when you get more experienced. I'm a long way off that, though.
Again, thanks to all those who have commented - I'm surprised so many people have viewed / commented on my little thread
. Obviously because I brought up co-habbing, quite a hot issue here. Sorry if any of you have taken any offence to anything I've said - I don't mean it that way. I'm just speaking my mind. And thank you to all those who have commented and helped me out, I'd be stuck without you all, especially since it seems I can't trust books -or- shop advisors >__<.
