starsevol - When they first went in together they jerked away from each other, but they were fine withing 5 minutes. I don't know about stress you can't see, so I can't comment on that since I'm no expert.
Fair enough, that if one regurgitates you don't know which it was - but does it matter all that much? They can go for a month or more without feeding anyway, so you can just keep them seperate for a while the next time you feed them and see if one regurges. If it does then you have a good idea. I suppose the exception would be if you wanted to keep a 100% accurate, strict feeding log with no chance for even the slightest error, but again, you could make a good guess if it regurged the second time.
I can belive that other people have lost their snakes to it, or had their snakes attack each other / become eggbound / etc, just as I can believe that people die in car crashes every day. Does it make me stop driving my car? No. Would it make me stop driving my car if 70+% of people didn't drive one because theyt felt it would be dangerous? Maybe, which is why I say that I'm considering splitting them up. As will anything, it's just a risk, not a given.
Thank you for explaining that one with Kelsey - again, I'm very sorry to hear that. When my cat was young she tried to have kittens, but she was too young and they all died. She was pining after them for a good couple of weeks afterwards, not eating and I felt awful for not doing more to keep her apart from male cats.. Not to try and steal your thunder, just saying that I'm genuinely sorry for you and Kelsey.
I guess I'm just trying to distinguish between "It may happen" and "It will happen". "It has an x% chance of happening", whilst it would be nice, is probably an impossibility. I know it's a harsh sounding term to use in these circumstances, but with all due care of use of this phrase, I think "sh*t happens" applies somehow - is it an unlikely and unpredictable accident or something that could be predicted.
Obviously in your case Kelsey wouldn't have become eggbound on her own, so it is definately adding a risk to the snake's health. But:
1. Snakes can die of all kinds of causes on their own
2. Some snakes live happily together all their lives, and have no problems.
Obviously some don't, but then some motorists also die in car crashes. Anything in life can cause you injury (financial, emotional, physical...) or death, even walking down the street - life is about weighting up the pros with the cons, the risks of something happening vs. the likelihood of it happening.
Not meaning to preach or anything - just saying that I'm just trying to see how likely it is that something will go wrong, so I can weight the risks with the rewards. Obviously this is difficult when the rewards (the snakes enjoying their time together) are difficult to prove.
My main concern is Ammy becoming Eggbound. Since they have to be moved in about August anyway, I was thinking about keeping them together until then, and then getting a seperate full-size viv for when they move out, since the next spring will be much more likely that they will breed. From what I've heard, issues like one snake eating the other, them fighting and etc don't seem especially big since they seem quite unlikely.
I would of course feed them seperately, leave them for a while to digest and not bring them together when one is fed or digesting, and if they stopped eating or anything then there is a good chance to seperate them. I'm just trying to gather information right now as they seem happy together. I'm glad that the Internet exists because without it, I would never be able to get valuable advice from all you fine people.
I really appreciate the help and advice being given, so please don't take my comments as arguments or digs. I just want what is best for my snakes, and I'm glad that you people are prepared to take time out of your lives to help me accheive that
.
jazzgeek - Of course, and often people make irrational decisions based on their thoughts that the animal, or in some cases inanimate object, would be "happier that way". But then, can we truly know that the reptile's tiny brain can't feel that way?
Obviously people will rubbish the idea that snakes have feelings of happiness or longing, but what about the people who post saying that their snakes actively seek each other out when let out of their vivs, or look through the glass of their respective vivs always trying to get to each other? (Both things I have heard people say on this forum).
Just as people claim they have seen ghosts, or aliens, or believe that there is a god, there will be people who claim these things don't exist. At the end of the day, we don't currently have the technology to prove one way or the other, so it's just speculation.
Sure, snakes may not be able to feel these things, and would rather be apart given the choice, in which case I would be completely wrong. But since no-one knows for sure, it's it possible, just a little bit, that they do love spending time together, and that by seperating them I might be depriving them of company of anything of the same species?
I think someone in another thread (Or was it this one? I've read so much here now that I've lost track) said something along the lines of "How would you feel if you were locked in a small cage with another person and forced to share that space for living, eating, sleeping, and forced to share the same water source?"
I'd like to change this slightly to the following: "How would you like to be seperated / denied access to a partner of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on your preference. I assume you don't get gay snakes but you never know), and locked in a cage by yourself?". Of course there is always the argument that they don't know any different, or that snakes don't feel lonely / longing / etc, but again that's not been proven to my knowledge.
They will have to be together at some point, anyway, for breeding purposes. If we never let them go together, they would never breed and snakes in captivity would die out.
Seriously though, Thank you for your (and everyone else's advice) on this. Without you guys and gals I would never have known that it could be a problem at all, especially eggbinding, as the reptile shop owner said nothing of this to me, just assuring me that they would be fine together when I asked. Honestly, you can't trust anyone these days.
Fair enough, that if one regurgitates you don't know which it was - but does it matter all that much? They can go for a month or more without feeding anyway, so you can just keep them seperate for a while the next time you feed them and see if one regurges. If it does then you have a good idea. I suppose the exception would be if you wanted to keep a 100% accurate, strict feeding log with no chance for even the slightest error, but again, you could make a good guess if it regurged the second time.
I can belive that other people have lost their snakes to it, or had their snakes attack each other / become eggbound / etc, just as I can believe that people die in car crashes every day. Does it make me stop driving my car? No. Would it make me stop driving my car if 70+% of people didn't drive one because theyt felt it would be dangerous? Maybe, which is why I say that I'm considering splitting them up. As will anything, it's just a risk, not a given.
Thank you for explaining that one with Kelsey - again, I'm very sorry to hear that. When my cat was young she tried to have kittens, but she was too young and they all died. She was pining after them for a good couple of weeks afterwards, not eating and I felt awful for not doing more to keep her apart from male cats.. Not to try and steal your thunder, just saying that I'm genuinely sorry for you and Kelsey.
I guess I'm just trying to distinguish between "It may happen" and "It will happen". "It has an x% chance of happening", whilst it would be nice, is probably an impossibility. I know it's a harsh sounding term to use in these circumstances, but with all due care of use of this phrase, I think "sh*t happens" applies somehow - is it an unlikely and unpredictable accident or something that could be predicted.
Obviously in your case Kelsey wouldn't have become eggbound on her own, so it is definately adding a risk to the snake's health. But:
1. Snakes can die of all kinds of causes on their own
2. Some snakes live happily together all their lives, and have no problems.
Obviously some don't, but then some motorists also die in car crashes. Anything in life can cause you injury (financial, emotional, physical...) or death, even walking down the street - life is about weighting up the pros with the cons, the risks of something happening vs. the likelihood of it happening.
Not meaning to preach or anything - just saying that I'm just trying to see how likely it is that something will go wrong, so I can weight the risks with the rewards. Obviously this is difficult when the rewards (the snakes enjoying their time together) are difficult to prove.
My main concern is Ammy becoming Eggbound. Since they have to be moved in about August anyway, I was thinking about keeping them together until then, and then getting a seperate full-size viv for when they move out, since the next spring will be much more likely that they will breed. From what I've heard, issues like one snake eating the other, them fighting and etc don't seem especially big since they seem quite unlikely.
I would of course feed them seperately, leave them for a while to digest and not bring them together when one is fed or digesting, and if they stopped eating or anything then there is a good chance to seperate them. I'm just trying to gather information right now as they seem happy together. I'm glad that the Internet exists because without it, I would never be able to get valuable advice from all you fine people.
I really appreciate the help and advice being given, so please don't take my comments as arguments or digs. I just want what is best for my snakes, and I'm glad that you people are prepared to take time out of your lives to help me accheive that
.jazzgeek - Of course, and often people make irrational decisions based on their thoughts that the animal, or in some cases inanimate object, would be "happier that way". But then, can we truly know that the reptile's tiny brain can't feel that way?
Obviously people will rubbish the idea that snakes have feelings of happiness or longing, but what about the people who post saying that their snakes actively seek each other out when let out of their vivs, or look through the glass of their respective vivs always trying to get to each other? (Both things I have heard people say on this forum).
Just as people claim they have seen ghosts, or aliens, or believe that there is a god, there will be people who claim these things don't exist. At the end of the day, we don't currently have the technology to prove one way or the other, so it's just speculation.
Sure, snakes may not be able to feel these things, and would rather be apart given the choice, in which case I would be completely wrong. But since no-one knows for sure, it's it possible, just a little bit, that they do love spending time together, and that by seperating them I might be depriving them of company of anything of the same species?
I think someone in another thread (Or was it this one? I've read so much here now that I've lost track) said something along the lines of "How would you feel if you were locked in a small cage with another person and forced to share that space for living, eating, sleeping, and forced to share the same water source?"
I'd like to change this slightly to the following: "How would you like to be seperated / denied access to a partner of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on your preference. I assume you don't get gay snakes but you never know), and locked in a cage by yourself?". Of course there is always the argument that they don't know any different, or that snakes don't feel lonely / longing / etc, but again that's not been proven to my knowledge.
They will have to be together at some point, anyway, for breeding purposes. If we never let them go together, they would never breed and snakes in captivity would die out
.Seriously though, Thank you for your (and everyone else's advice) on this. Without you guys and gals I would never have known that it could be a problem at all, especially eggbinding, as the reptile shop owner said nothing of this to me, just assuring me that they would be fine together when I asked. Honestly, you can't trust anyone these days
.
