Example of What's Wrong with America

[tsst]

tsst, the title of this thread is "Example of what's wrong with America". That suggests to me that the OP believes if the people who abused welfare would stop abusing it, America would not have anything wrong with it. If this is not so, perhaps the OP should choose their language better in order to be less ambiguous. However, considering the vitriol that many people on this board throw at people who support many of these programs I have no doubt in my mind that Camby thinks that the poor are dragging America down and they just need to pull up their bootstraps.

I won't speak for Camby. That being said I read it as "example" had the thread title been 'everything that's wrong with America' then perhaps your complaint would hold more water.

PS. An analogy is comparing two like things. I take umbrage at your suggestion that poor people are 'like' wild animals.

I did not read the analogy as being about the subject but rather the action. You seemingly assumed the worst of Bethany before even clarifying. That to me sounds eerily similar to what you accuse others of doing.

PPS. What on earth do you mean by "You chose to tie the abuse examples to those actually in need."? This very thread is suggesting restricting welfare. Drug tests for all failures! You deserve our suspicion by not succeeding at a game that's rigged against you! So if you mean to say that I'm out of line for arguing against those restrictions because they will deny help to those who need it, well, you're not gonna get an apology out of me because I'm not out of line.

Again most were sighting examples of abuse and possible ways to curtail it. You are the one that sighted those with actual need not abusing. I guess I am a failure because I have been subject to drug testing most of my adult employment. I must also deserve everyone's suspicion. How will they deny help to those that need it? Please provide a better example than poppy seed muffins.

 

[Nova_C]

Uh...before I respond to that, I'd like you to answer my last post so I don't run the risk of you accusing me of thread hijacking again.

 

[tsst]

Uh...before I respond to that, I'd like you to answer my last post so I don't run the risk of you accusing me of thread hijacking again.

I did not accuse you of hijacking. I simply pointed out you were one of those that added the subset of those with actual need to a topic about abuse.

 

[Nova_C]

Again this thread was started about abusers and many have added examples of abuse. You chose to tie the abuse examples to those actually in need.

I got this from you for answering a question that you asked me.

 

[tsst]

I got this from you for answering a question that you asked me.

Oy vey. I asked what your fix for abuse was. Just paraphrasing but your response was something like you don't give a good GD about abusers and continually sight those in need being treated badly. That very well may be but my question was about abuse. For the record I believe it reprehensible to deride those in actual need. Back to the abuse subject. Aside from you don't give a good GD do you have any input on how to lessen abuse?

 

[Michael823]

Funny isn't it how you are not allowed to feed the bears in national parks so they don't become dependant on humans, but the government fosters dependency in its own people?

So you can compare a human to a bear, but god forbid Peta compares a bear to a human...

Sounds more like a politically formed logic, and not an intellectual one.

 

[Nova_C]

It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure. Not without causing way more problems than it solves, at any rate.

The thing is, abuse of welfare doesn't occur in a vacuum. By that I mean that easy access to welfare isn't the issue. I've never heard a kid say "When I grow up, I'm going to abuse the welfare system!" They always want to be astronauts or paleontologists or movie stars. So what happens that they don't want to do those things anymore?

This is drifting off topic, though, so the simple answer really is no, I don't, because I don't think there is anything you can do to lessen abuse without either completely shutting welfare down (Which would just make things worse for everyone), or a really honest look at the logical conclusion we are taking modern society to (Which most people don't want to do).

 

[tsst]

It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure. Not without causing way more problems than it solves, at any rate.

The thing is, abuse of welfare doesn't occur in a vacuum. By that I mean that easy access to welfare isn't the issue. I've never heard a kid say "When I grow up, I'm going to abuse the welfare system!" They always want to be astronauts or paleontologists or movie stars. So what happens that they don't want to do those things anymore?

This is drifting off topic, though, so the simple answer really is no, I don't, because I don't think there is anything you can do to lessen abuse without either completely shutting welfare down (Which would just make things worse for everyone), or a really honest look at the logical conclusion we are taking modern society to (Which most people don't want to do).

Obviously some kids still do want and do become astronauts, paleontologists and movie stars.

Not counting those in actual need it goes back to the bears. If given an easier path to food the bear takes it. Likewise if gov provides an easier path some that don't actually need it will still take it. Our systems of aid were founded on good intentions but have been distorted and abused until they struggle to assist those with an actual need. Simply ignoring the abuse because fixing it may be uncomfortable is quite honestly absurd IMHO.

 

[starsevol]

Two things.

1) People aren't bears.

2) We don't feed the animals so wild animals don't become accustomed to humans and see us as a source of food.

But don't let that get in the way of ridiculous analogies.

sureokfine....but....why does the government foster dependency in its people?

 

[starsevol]

So you can compare a human to a bear, but god forbid Peta compares a bear to a human...

Sounds more like a politically formed logic, and not an intellectual one.

They are both creatures that can become dependant on handouts.....and I am not talking about PETA.....

 

[starsevol]

Obviously some kids still do want and do become astronauts, paleontologists and movie stars.

Not counting those in actual need it goes back to the bears. If given an easier path to food the bear takes it. Likewise if gov provides an easier path some that don't actually need it will still take it. Our systems of aid were founded on good intentions but have been distorted and abused until they struggle to assist those with an actual need. Simply ignoring the abuse because fixing it may be uncomfortable is quite honestly absurd IMHO.

OMG....my thoughts but said more eloquently than I can...touche

 

[Nova_C]

I didn't say 'Uncomfortable' I said 'worse'. Basically, if the solution is to cause further economic instability, then it's not much of a solution. I'm not 'ignoring' the problem so much as arguing that the problem isn't significant enough to warrant attention.

sureokfine....but....why does the government foster dependency in its people?

Well, if you agree to my statement, then the government isn't fostering dependency in its people.

 

[beautifullywild77]

So you can compare a human to a bear, but god forbid Peta compares a bear to a human...

Sounds more like a politically formed logic, and not an intellectual one.

Where did PETA come into the picture or the thread?

This is an example of those changing the subject just for the sake of an argument.

 

[starsevol]

I didn't say 'Uncomfortable' I said 'worse'. Basically, if the solution is to cause further economic instability, then it's not much of a solution. I'm not 'ignoring' the problem so much as arguing that the problem isn't significant enough to warrant attention.



Well, if you agree to my statement, then the government isn't fostering dependency in its people.

Actually no. I do not agree with your statement at all. Not one little tiddley bit. And yes, the government is most definately fostering dependency in its people.

How many people actually believe that the government creates jobs?

 

[Lennycorn]

Example of What's Wrong with America

The example show here is just one thing that is wrong.
Lets call it "on the lower end of it"" but there are things that are just as wrong on the ""upper end"" too!!

""We"' in the middle are getting screwed the most!!!

Now...you want to talk corns??

 

[tsst]

I didn't say 'Uncomfortable' I said 'worse'. Basically, if the solution is to cause further economic instability, then it's not much of a solution. I'm not 'ignoring' the problem so much as arguing that the problem isn't significant enough to warrant attention.



Well, if you agree to my statement, then the government isn't fostering dependency in its people.

How could it be worse to fix the abuse? The further instability comes from doing nothing and allowing nay enabling the abuse to perpetuate. It may not be significant in Canada but it is in the US. In just one segment in California was $69 million dollars (EBT withdrawals made in Vegas, Hawaii, the Virgin Islands, cruise ships, etc).

 

[Nova_C]

How is that a sign of abuse? It may indicate abuse, but unless you can show me that the people that made the withdrawals should not qualify for assistance, or that they used the money for illegal purposes, then it's just smoke and mirrors.

 

[beautifullywild77]

Well if you qualify for public assistance, ie cash assistance, then according to the guide they follow to approve you, there is no way you could not afford to go on a cruise ship or a trip to Hawaii. Now you could be visiting family in Vegas and used the money while there but if it shows it was taken out in a casino atm, what other conclusion can you come to? Except using the money on gambling. Usually the people that NEED cash assistance need it to pay rent or utilities and truly can't afford to travel or gamble.

 

[tsst]

How is that a sign of abuse? It may indicate abuse, but unless you can show me that the people that made the withdrawals should not qualify for assistance, or that they used the money for illegal purposes, then it's just smoke and mirrors.

Well if you qualify for public assistance, ie cash assistance, then according to the guide they follow to approve you, there is no way you could not afford to go on a cruise ship or a trip to Hawaii. Now you could be visiting family in Vegas and used the money while there but if it shows it was taken out in a casino atm, what other conclusion can you come to? Except using the money on gambling. Usually the people that NEED cash assistance need it to pay rent or utilities and truly can't afford to travel or gamble.

What she said. Thanks bw!

 

[Nova_C]

Which is possible, but I'm not convinced simply because of the fact that it's based on the idea that someone on assistance should not be permitted to take any kind of vacation. Or do anything fun at all.

Which is pretty ridiculous considering these are families we're talking about.

Now, if you show that some able bodied person who is living off welfare instead of working is going on these trips? Well, then I'd agree that the person is abusing the system.

However, if it's a family that saved every extra dollar they managed to find over a couple years so the kids could meet Mickey Mouse or something? And they used their welfare to cover some of their expenses while on the trip? Then no, I would not consider that abuse even though I have never been able to afford a trip to Disneyland or go on a cruise.

Simply pointing at money spent out of state or on cruise ships isn't enough to make me think that there is a significant problem of abuse. The circumstances of that expenditure are important. And they are, unfortunately, not available to me to examine.