From two weird parents come . . . weird babies!

[cturley]

Here's a clutch that hatched recently: 10 oddballs (plus 2 DIE) that all show significant color and pattern aberrancy. 4 are amels, but until they shed, it's easier to see on the "normals." (These pics are prior to first shed.)

I don't even know what pheno to label the parents, given their own oddities of coloration, but they are both het amel and motley or stripe. Both have bronzed belly checkers, making me suspect hypo, and the male is colored like a Buf, while his sister is redder, but still an odd color.

I was testing the father for Buf, and got 2-3 Buf-like colorations. The rest are all too red for Bufs, but seem to have an unusual degree of yellow. They're also very light for normals, as are the parents . . . making me wonder about hypo (which neither grandma or grandpa were known to carry).

The patterns are divisible into two groups: the "normals" (like the two DIEs pictured), which have normal belly checks, and the "motleys," which have solid black bellies or bellies fading to black at the edges (kind of hard to describe).

I also like the white "eyebrows" some have.

I'd love to hear thoughts!

Catherine

 

[cturley]

And a couple more . . .

 

[Shiari]

I am thinking you might have hybrids on your hands there. The one 4th picture down in the first post just screams "not corn".

 

[cturley]

I am thinking you might have hybrids on your hands there. The one 4th picture down in the first post just screams "not corn".

He's one of the "motleys." They all have that spaced-out-but-trying-to-reach-for-each-other saddle look.

Here's another pic of the same one, with him looking a bit more corn-ly?

C

 

[Shiari]

It's the head and neck pattern that has me thinking that. I've seen that many times on some of the king/corn and milk/king hybrids.

 

[cturley]

Gotcha. Well, there's no hybrid in the immediate family tree, unless you count Tessera. . . and I'd prefer not to open that can of worms in this thread, lol.

 

[Nanci]

I'm the last person to call hybrid, but the baby in post two? The head marking is not corn-like, and the belly just screams Cali king to me. They are cool, whatever they are.

 

[Nanci]

Gotcha. Well, there's no hybrid in the immediate family tree, unless you count Tessera. . . and I'd prefer not to open that can of worms in this thread, lol.

Please, no. But that's what those side patterns are most reminiscent of, to me! Weird.

 

[cturley]

Heh, yep. I appreciate you pointing to something they resemble, rather than just saying "they don't look like corns, so they must be hybrids," which I don't think is a very productive or accurate way to approach something new.

It's interesting to me that some known hybrid genes (like Ultra) and other contested ones (like Tessera) are far more accepted in the corn community than others. As a fan of creamsicles, I tend to think there's a place for something, if it brings a new trait (like the yellow/orange combo), as long as it's acknowledged for its non-corn origin.

So even if these guys were hybrids--and as I said, I have no knowledge that they are--wouldn't they be interesting in their own right? If the pattern were transferrable to, say, lavender, wouldn't that still be neat?

Just my thoughts.

P.S. Oh, and what surprised me is how bizarre these guys look, considering their parents' patterns are pretty standard for corns. I don't think anyone would suggest either of the parents was a hybrid based on pattern.

 

[Nanci]

But you said the parents are weird. Could you post pics of them? Buf isn't out there much, and tessera isn't really, either. Meaning- I'm curious about where the parents came from.

 

[Nanci]

High saddle count, too.

 

[cturley]

Sorry to be confusing. What I find weird about the parents is mostly their coloring, and that they have that very un-glossy "flat" look. The female's pattern resembles other "faux-motleys" I've seen, and I'd call her borderless, but both are things that crop up in uncontestedly "pure" corns.

The male is the one with reduced red. And even though name-brand "Buf" hasn't been in the States long, I think it's a gene that's been hanging around on this side of the ocean for quite awhile. I worked with Sean Niland in 2012 to test his Oaks, and we're pretty certain they're Bufs, just restricted to a Miami lineage. He even recalls sending a shipment of his Miamis to Europe several decades ago, and suspects that may be how the Buf gene entered the population over there. Whether or not that's the case, this male has resembled a Buf from funny-colored hatchling until now. I also paired him to an unrelated female this year, to test whether his coloration proves dominant. Still a month away on those eggs.

Anyway . . . here are some pics of the parents.

 

[cturley]

Oh, and the parents of these two (which are siblings) were an SMR Tessera het Striped Snow and an Amel het Motley. They were produced by a guy named Michael Lavender, whose arm I twisted to get the sibling pair. Michael also produced the world's first Striped Amel, Striped Anery, and Striped Snow Tesseras, photos of which should still be in Don's Tessera hatchling gallery.

 

[brindle]

Don't have any valuable input but... they are beautiful!

 

[Nanci]

So these parents came from Lavender. Yeah, I see nowhere that a different species could have been introduced. Why buf- just the male's weird color? I love the female.

 

[Rich Z]

I am thinking you might have hybrids on your hands there. The one 4th picture down in the first post just screams "not corn".

So, then, how would this opinion differ if you were looking at photos of Sunkisseds? -> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46768

I presume you are referring to the head and neck pattern.

Seriously people, everything different looking is not automatically a hybrid. Tossing a bunch of genetic coins up into the air is bound to produce *different* looking animals, which is exactly why I used to breed these critters.

 

[cturley]

So, then, how would this opinion differ if you were looking at photos of Sunkisseds? -> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46768

I presume you are referring to the head and neck pattern.

Seriously people, everything different looking is not automatically a hybrid. Tossing a bunch of genetic coins up into the air is bound to produce *different* looking animals, which is exactly why I used to breed these critters.

So these parents came from Lavender. Yeah, I see nowhere that a different species could have been introduced. Why buf- just the male's weird color? I love the female.

Thank you both. My thoughts as well, although I understand Megan's reaction, and I'm not offended by it.

To answer you about why Buf, Nanci, I just don't know how else to account for the hypoerythrism I see in him, and in the similarity I saw in him as a hatchling to Buf hatchlings--that same quasi-caramel/quasi-anery look. (Sorry, wish I had a good pic.) And I find it easier to believe in Buf cropping up here, where corns are from originally, than to believe I have a whole new mutation on my hands. I'll be a lot more certain if it proves dominant with an unrelated female, that's for sure.

 

[Nanci]

What other cornsnake has black belly scales like that, though. Something must- there's a checkbox for it in the ACR.

 

[AliCat37]

So... I see you're in Colorado.

You going to be selling any of those kids???

 

[Christen]

What other cornsnake has black belly scales like that, though. Something must- there's a checkbox for it in the ACR.

Wasn't it the Tessera X Tessera snakes that I think were in Germany? I can't remember the location for sure.