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From two weird parents come . . . weird babies!
- Thread starter cturley
- Start date
Nanci
Alien Lover
OK, so I'll throw my random thoughts into the ring, just for fun.
The saddles on the 2 DIE look more square than normal. Not rounded like sunkist, not reaching towards each other at the corners like normal. Maybe they just look so square cuz they are laid out in such a straight line? Not really used to seeing corns posed like that... Side patterns also look a little unusual, but can't really see them very well. I think the neck side stripe is a little unusual, but I think I've seen similar ones before. The eyebrows thing is nifty looking on the darker hatchling. Colors sorta brownish. Like a golden brown. But... all that alone... I'd throw it out the window and assume it has to do with being underdeveloped and/or associated with the reason they were DIE in the first place.
However, with the other oddities in the clutch...well... it is interesting, but if it is genetic, why don't the oddities have more common ground than they seem to? I think I counted 5 different unusual looking things I'm seeing. It certainly doesn't seem likely that just one gene is doing all that and also doing it so variably in different snakes.
I'm gonna number the living babies from top to bottom to make it easier to keep track of.
#1 - it has lots of the neck side striping, way far down it's body. I'm a lot less certain I've seen that before where it goes so far down the body. Looks pretty cool. Golden brown color between the saddles on the head/neck and tail... but not the middle of the body. I can't seem to remember seeing that sort of coloration pattern on a corn before, but it could easily color up to look more even as it grows. Saddles look more normal than the DIEs.
#2 - Don't think I've ever seen a just-hatched normal this light before. Similar brownish color as #1. All sorts of interesting stuff with the head pattern & saddles. But not the same square saddles as the 2 DIE. Some of the neck side striping.
#3 - Saddles look a little more like the DIE. Color looks a little more normal.
#4 - Whoa. I literally said that out loud when I scrolled down to it. Pretty much take all my comments from #2 and turn them up a notch.
Belly shot - is that #4? I don't ever remember seeing a solid dark belly like that in a corn. In both corns & BPs, different belly patterns often go with inheritable genetic traits. I don't know if they also go with things like incubation stress.
So... oddity #1 - lots of babies with that golden brown coloration. Is that buf? I don't know enough about the gene to speculate.
Oddity #2 - lots of babies with neck side striping. Since the parents are siblings, and look like maybe they both have some of that side neck striping too (pretty hard to see on the pic of the female), it could just be a line-bred type of trait. But it could also be something that follows a Mendelian inheritance pattern.
Oddity #3 - squarish saddles. I'm thinking this is less likely genetic and I might just be imagining it.
Oddity #4 - other oddly shaped saddles. This happens randomly all the time. This alone I would consider most likely a random thing or incubation stress. By the time I combine this with the different pattern oddity of the squarish saddles, I am definitely leaning towards nothing/random/incubation stress type causes, not genetic.
Oddity #5 - belly color. Really not sure what to make of it. Did only one baby have a belly like that? Or lots of them?
Very interesting bunch of babies to be sure!
The saddles on the 2 DIE look more square than normal. Not rounded like sunkist, not reaching towards each other at the corners like normal. Maybe they just look so square cuz they are laid out in such a straight line? Not really used to seeing corns posed like that... Side patterns also look a little unusual, but can't really see them very well. I think the neck side stripe is a little unusual, but I think I've seen similar ones before. The eyebrows thing is nifty looking on the darker hatchling. Colors sorta brownish. Like a golden brown. But... all that alone... I'd throw it out the window and assume it has to do with being underdeveloped and/or associated with the reason they were DIE in the first place.
However, with the other oddities in the clutch...well... it is interesting, but if it is genetic, why don't the oddities have more common ground than they seem to? I think I counted 5 different unusual looking things I'm seeing. It certainly doesn't seem likely that just one gene is doing all that and also doing it so variably in different snakes.
I'm gonna number the living babies from top to bottom to make it easier to keep track of.
#1 - it has lots of the neck side striping, way far down it's body. I'm a lot less certain I've seen that before where it goes so far down the body. Looks pretty cool. Golden brown color between the saddles on the head/neck and tail... but not the middle of the body. I can't seem to remember seeing that sort of coloration pattern on a corn before, but it could easily color up to look more even as it grows. Saddles look more normal than the DIEs.
#2 - Don't think I've ever seen a just-hatched normal this light before. Similar brownish color as #1. All sorts of interesting stuff with the head pattern & saddles. But not the same square saddles as the 2 DIE. Some of the neck side striping.
#3 - Saddles look a little more like the DIE. Color looks a little more normal.
#4 - Whoa. I literally said that out loud when I scrolled down to it. Pretty much take all my comments from #2 and turn them up a notch.
Belly shot - is that #4? I don't ever remember seeing a solid dark belly like that in a corn. In both corns & BPs, different belly patterns often go with inheritable genetic traits. I don't know if they also go with things like incubation stress.
So... oddity #1 - lots of babies with that golden brown coloration. Is that buf? I don't know enough about the gene to speculate.
Oddity #2 - lots of babies with neck side striping. Since the parents are siblings, and look like maybe they both have some of that side neck striping too (pretty hard to see on the pic of the female), it could just be a line-bred type of trait. But it could also be something that follows a Mendelian inheritance pattern.
Oddity #3 - squarish saddles. I'm thinking this is less likely genetic and I might just be imagining it.
Oddity #4 - other oddly shaped saddles. This happens randomly all the time. This alone I would consider most likely a random thing or incubation stress. By the time I combine this with the different pattern oddity of the squarish saddles, I am definitely leaning towards nothing/random/incubation stress type causes, not genetic.
Oddity #5 - belly color. Really not sure what to make of it. Did only one baby have a belly like that? Or lots of them?
Very interesting bunch of babies to be sure!
Whew, lots to come back to. First of all, I corrected the ventral pics of the parents; I had a different shot of the mother's ventral posted for the father, rather than his own. The original photo of the mother's vent was correct, but not as complete a shot as the one I mistakenly posted for the male. Hope that makes sense.
Um, not sure! I'll probably hang on to them awhile out of scientific curiosity, to watch them develop. But if the time comes to sell some, I'll remember you asked first.
Yep! I remembered seeing the photos awhile back, though I didn't know they lost the black coloring. Something to keep an eye out for. . . .
And to KC261, let's see. . . . first let me again apologize for the confusion--I didn't post clear, individual shots of all the babies (something I was planning to do after they shed. For analysis purposes, there are 10 living hatchlings, which I would divide like this:
4 amels (2 of them "motley," as best I can tell with them all clouded up)
4 non-amels that look just like the DIEs
2 non-amel "motleys," which are pictures 4 and 6
The non-amel "motleys" have the solid black bellies that fade to plain belies with black at the edges. The amel "motleys" have what look like clear bellies, though again it's hard to see at the moment.
As far as Buf and coloration goes, there are a couple clearly darker and more Buf-like (such as in pic 3), but it's too hard to pinpoint the others until they shed. :-/
Two things make me think it's heritable rather than incubation-related. One is the degree of similarity between the babies of a specific type--i.e. the motleys look like the other motleys, and the normals all have that consistent square-saddle, high-saddle count look. The second is that the parents, while not as extreme, exhibit the same color and pattern traits to a degree.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Um, not sure! I'll probably hang on to them awhile out of scientific curiosity, to watch them develop. But if the time comes to sell some, I'll remember you asked first.
Yep! I remembered seeing the photos awhile back, though I didn't know they lost the black coloring. Something to keep an eye out for. . . .
And to KC261, let's see. . . . first let me again apologize for the confusion--I didn't post clear, individual shots of all the babies (something I was planning to do after they shed. For analysis purposes, there are 10 living hatchlings, which I would divide like this:
4 amels (2 of them "motley," as best I can tell with them all clouded up)
4 non-amels that look just like the DIEs
2 non-amel "motleys," which are pictures 4 and 6
The non-amel "motleys" have the solid black bellies that fade to plain belies with black at the edges. The amel "motleys" have what look like clear bellies, though again it's hard to see at the moment.
As far as Buf and coloration goes, there are a couple clearly darker and more Buf-like (such as in pic 3), but it's too hard to pinpoint the others until they shed. :-/
Two things make me think it's heritable rather than incubation-related. One is the degree of similarity between the babies of a specific type--i.e. the motleys look like the other motleys, and the normals all have that consistent square-saddle, high-saddle count look. The second is that the parents, while not as extreme, exhibit the same color and pattern traits to a degree.
Thanks for the input everyone!
OK. That makes sense. I somehow missed that you were looking at some motley-ish ones and some not motley-ish ones.I guess you didn't post any pics of the amel ones?
I hope my post wasn't too long. I was just having fun looking at the interesting things about them... and then I went to re-read my post to make sure it made sense before I posted it and realized I'd written a book!
NiklasTyreso
New member
I think the (non motley) normal hatchlings have a emoryi pattern and the parents look like hypo rootbeer and hypo motley rootbeer.
Emoryi genes is out there far back in ancestry of many so called "pure" corns and in natural integrades as well.
If you select breeder snakes with creamsicle/emoryi traits, then you should get hatchlings that get more or less of those traits to.
rolandslf
New member
I have not been around the Forum for years, so I only saw this post now. What I suspect is not going to win me many friends here, I think we are looking at Rootbeer / Creamsickle / King hybrid parents where the Rootbeer / Creamsickle influence is dominant, and when they were paired, the King influence has manifested to a larger agree, hence the solid Black Belly that we see. So Nanci, I support your initial verdict of some type of Hybrid influence. Of course I may be so far off the mark here it borders on the ridiculous.
Just as an aside, the baby in the second post is WOW.
Just as an aside, the baby in the second post is WOW.
benning_c
New member
I wish I knew more about genetics and morphs to be able to contribute anything of value to this thread. All I can say is you got some beautiful and super interesting little ones there! A thread I will be following for sure. It will be interesting to see how they develop with age!!
Thanks, everyone!
I took a few minutes yesterday to photograph the seven weirdos I have here (an eighth is living with Rich Hume, and two refused to feed), and I'll post the updated pics as soon as I can this week. I also have some group pics taken just after their first shed, which show all ten together for comparison.
Stay tuned . . .
I took a few minutes yesterday to photograph the seven weirdos I have here (an eighth is living with Rich Hume, and two refused to feed), and I'll post the updated pics as soon as I can this week. I also have some group pics taken just after their first shed, which show all ten together for comparison.
Stay tuned . . .
chris68
Arundel Reptiles
Very neat...Throwback expression from the tessera? (there's your can o' worms again Catherine )...The corn-ly kid looks patterned like a gopher snake lol...I think we "knee jerk" the hybrid calls as well, but with enough "hobby morph corns" floating around out there some skepticism will always be in the backs of minds...Are they crossed with something?...could be, so could a lot of corn morphs...Doesn't really matter, these are "pet" snakes manipulated by us to breed what we want, when we want them to...Where I sit (aka my opinion) they look like very cool looking, and who knows, maybe something new...corn snake morphs
)...The corn-ly kid looks patterned like a gopher snake lol...I think we "knee jerk" the hybrid calls as well, but with enough "hobby morph corns" floating around out there some skepticism will always be in the backs of minds...Are they crossed with something?...could be, so could a lot of corn morphs...Doesn't really matter, these are "pet" snakes manipulated by us to breed what we want, when we want them to...Where I sit (aka my opinion) they look like very cool looking, and who knows, maybe something new...corn snake morphs Thanks for your patience, everyone.
Before I get to the current photos, I thought I'd post the three comparison shots I took of all 10 hatchlings after their first shed. The lighting was lousy, but hopefully these shots give an idea of the different color-casts the hatchlings had even early on. Some were unusually orange, and others were very brown and ivory.
Just for reference with the current photos, the hatchlings are numbered (starting at top left and moving clockwise):
5M, 7M, 6M (first photo)
1M, 1F, 2M (second photo)
8M, 4M, 3M, 2F (third photo)
Before I get to the current photos, I thought I'd post the three comparison shots I took of all 10 hatchlings after their first shed. The lighting was lousy, but hopefully these shots give an idea of the different color-casts the hatchlings had even early on. Some were unusually orange, and others were very brown and ivory.
Just for reference with the current photos, the hatchlings are numbered (starting at top left and moving clockwise):
5M, 7M, 6M (first photo)
1M, 1F, 2M (second photo)
8M, 4M, 3M, 2F (third photo)
Attachments
Okay, now on to the current shots. 3M and 8M didn't feed, and 5M is with Rich Hume, so we'll have to look hopefully his way for an update on that one.
A few things I've learned since my original post:
1) The "motleys" are not very aptly named for a couple of reasons. First, because their solid belly patterns are due to too many belly checks, not the absence of them. This renders black bellies on the two non-amel "motleys" (5M and 2M), and a clear-ish belly on the one amel "motley" (4M) The second reason "motley" isn't accurate is that I later bred the sire to an unrelated striped bloodred female, and all of those hatchings had more-or-less normal belly patterns (i.e. split belly-checks, but that I blame on mom). So, it seems whatever the parents of these hatchlings carry, it's at best a form of "faux motley" that causes the saddle elongation and ventral irregularities, but isn't compatible with normal motley/stripe.
2) While I haven't ruled out the father carrying Buf, I don't think that explains the range of bizarre colorations in the clutch. Some have the expected reduction in orange/red coloration I've seen in Bufs, but others have a much more intense orange coloration than usual. 2M, 5M, and particularly 6M show it, and have since their first shed (unlike, say, Abbott's Okeetees, which develop their orange slowly). I hope it shows in the photos, but I think Rich can back me up when I say that it's even more obvious in person. Also, 1M has an odd yellow cast, which I think shows well in comparison with 1F.
I don't know of any currently-acknowledged mutation that produces the look, although I'd like to do some breedings with the juvie "yellow-jacket" I have from Joe Pierce, to compare. I suppose the orange-ness could also be the result of more than one thing acting in concert, such as red-coat and yellow-jacket. Unfortunately, 8 surviving hatchlings is just too few to make any sort of quantitative analysis, especially if multiple traits are at work.
Oh, on one other note, I'm inclined to think 7M is a hypo. Since he looks the most like his father at that age, I plan to test the father for hypo this breeding season.
Anyway, opinions are welcome!
Here are 1F, her ventral shot, then 1M, and his ventral:
A few things I've learned since my original post:
1) The "motleys" are not very aptly named for a couple of reasons. First, because their solid belly patterns are due to too many belly checks, not the absence of them. This renders black bellies on the two non-amel "motleys" (5M and 2M), and a clear-ish belly on the one amel "motley" (4M) The second reason "motley" isn't accurate is that I later bred the sire to an unrelated striped bloodred female, and all of those hatchings had more-or-less normal belly patterns (i.e. split belly-checks, but that I blame on mom). So, it seems whatever the parents of these hatchlings carry, it's at best a form of "faux motley" that causes the saddle elongation and ventral irregularities, but isn't compatible with normal motley/stripe.
2) While I haven't ruled out the father carrying Buf, I don't think that explains the range of bizarre colorations in the clutch. Some have the expected reduction in orange/red coloration I've seen in Bufs, but others have a much more intense orange coloration than usual. 2M, 5M, and particularly 6M show it, and have since their first shed (unlike, say, Abbott's Okeetees, which develop their orange slowly). I hope it shows in the photos, but I think Rich can back me up when I say that it's even more obvious in person. Also, 1M has an odd yellow cast, which I think shows well in comparison with 1F.
I don't know of any currently-acknowledged mutation that produces the look, although I'd like to do some breedings with the juvie "yellow-jacket" I have from Joe Pierce, to compare. I suppose the orange-ness could also be the result of more than one thing acting in concert, such as red-coat and yellow-jacket. Unfortunately, 8 surviving hatchlings is just too few to make any sort of quantitative analysis, especially if multiple traits are at work.
Oh, on one other note, I'm inclined to think 7M is a hypo. Since he looks the most like his father at that age, I plan to test the father for hypo this breeding season.
Anyway, opinions are welcome!
Here are 1F, her ventral shot, then 1M, and his ventral:
Attachments
MysticExotics
(formerly NWHeather)
Very cool! They are turning out very nicely!
