Frozen/Thawed vs live feeder rodents

[wowfood]

I try to zombie dance but Snake is on the pinkie before I get the chance to.

As for the washing off the smell thing I said earlier, I was just paraphrasing what i'd read in one of the snake books I have around here. It recommended if you're going to defrost to keep them in a plastic bag so as the scent didn't get washed off. It doesn't mean the snake won't still it, just means that more fussy eaters won't be as interested because it doesn't smell as strongly.

Personally I just stick a pinkie into a handy, and leave the handy for an hour or so to make sure its fully defrosted.

Take pinkie out, put snake in then put pinkie back in. Because the tub absolutely stinks of mouse the moment he gets in there he's zooming around looking for the little beast, as opposed to when I defrost the mouse separately in which case he just doesn't seem to care.

 

[7legion77]

I started of Wraith on live, then when I bought the first adult mouse it looked a little dangerous, so I prekilled his next 3 mice.

Last week I got him a living, barely weaned rat. The thing's eyes were open and it was very alert and aware. Since I don't particularly enjoy killing rodents, I neglected to kill it, thinking that since it was so young it didn't have the proper fighting ability of the adults, and Wraith would be able to handle it.

I don't know if this is the result of switching from live to prekill back to live, or if this was one robust young rat slightly out of my snakes' league.

But he COULD NOT kill it. No matter how much he constricted, the rat kept squealing and wouldn't die. At some point, Wraith actually released his grip of the rat and allowed him to get away. Then he chased him again, then he releases again as if my snake's getting "tired".

I was afraid this monumental struggle might lead to a bite, so I had to intervene. One thing led to another, the rat ended up in the snake's drinking water, and eventually died from being constricted underwater.

Did he forget how to "hunt" after seeing the minimal constriction it took to "subdue" 3 prekilled mice? Does habitually eating pre killed reduce the snake's ability to efficiently deal with live prey? I'm sure someone has experienced this, I've got to know why he had so much trouble.

 

[starsevol]

I started of Wraith on live, then when I bought the first adult mouse it looked a little dangerous, so I prekilled his next 3 mice.

Last week I got him a living, barely weaned rat. The thing's eyes were open and it was very alert and aware. Since I don't particularly enjoy killing rodents, I neglected to kill it, thinking that since it was so young it didn't have the proper fighting ability of the adults, and Wraith would be able to handle it.

I don't know if this is the result of switching from live to prekill back to live, or if this was one robust young rat slightly out of my snakes' league.

But he COULD NOT kill it. No matter how much he constricted, the rat kept squealing and wouldn't die. At some point, Wraith actually released his grip of the rat and allowed him to get away. Then he chased him again, then he releases again as if my snake's getting "tired".

I was afraid this monumental struggle might lead to a bite, so I had to intervene. One thing led to another, the rat ended up in the snake's drinking water, and eventually died from being constricted underwater.

Did he forget how to "hunt" after seeing the minimal constriction it took to "subdue" 3 prekilled mice? Does habitually eating pre killed reduce the snake's ability to efficiently deal with live prey? I'm sure someone has experienced this, I've got to know why he had so much trouble.

Wow...that post hurt my heart. I am now fighting tears.
Thank you for ruining my night.
I keep them as pets, and that poor baby went through hell before dying.
How could you do something so horrible and feel nothing?

Rats are too fatty to be good cornsnake food anyway...

 

[AliCat37]

Did he forget how to "hunt" after seeing the minimal constriction it took to "subdue" 3 prekilled mice? Does habitually eating pre killed reduce the snake's ability to efficiently deal with live prey? I'm sure someone has experienced this, I've got to know why he had so much trouble.

Snakes don't forget how to hunt. But why would you risk feeding your snake live when you know it eats prekilled just fine?

 

[7legion77]

Wow...that post hurt my heart. I am now fighting tears.
Thank you for ruining my night.
I keep them as pets, and that poor baby went through hell before dying.
How could you do something so horrible and feel nothing?

Rats are too fatty to be good cornsnake food anyway...

Yea it sucked, it was a sticky situation... still, I've not determined if eating prekilled somehow affects their ability to eat live, or if they hunt through purely hardwired instinct.

 

[starsevol]

Yea it sucked, it was a sticky situation... still, I've not determined if eating prekilled somehow affects their ability to eat live, or if they hunt through purely hardwired instinct.

What does it matter as long as it EATS??
It's a PET!!

Dogs were originally tamed and used by cavemen to help them hunt.
Does that mean you want your pet dog to hunt?
If your toy poodle does not have to hunt, your pet snake shouldn't have to either.
None of my 40plus snakes will EVER see live food, and the risks that go with it. My snakes (and my rats) are pets.

 

[Lennycorn]

Yes, I think snakes are hardwired or have basic instincts but thats to eat...
I don't believe they care if it live or f/t. Some have issues, but over all f/t is a win win situation.

 

[7legion77]

No need to get dramatic about it. I'm inclined to feed live because it feels more authentic, its just a stigma I have and I'm not trying to justify it.
In all honesty, I can't feel empathy for rodents. Even when I try, I can't. Mainstream society detests rats and are only interested in killing them. I am afflicted by that norm.

But you're probably right that as a responsible pet owner we shouldn't expose our pets to any kind of risk, even if small. It's dinner, its not a gladiator arena.

I'll have to swallow my curiosity and stick with prekilled, to avoid these dicey and unpredictable situations.

 

[starsevol]

No need to get dramatic about it. I'm inclined to feed live because it feels more authentic, its just a stigma I have and I'm not trying to justify it.
In all honesty, I can't feel empathy for rodents. Even when I try, I can't. Mainstream society detests rats and are only interested in killing them. I am afflicted by that norm.

But you're probably right that as a responsible pet owner we shouldn't expose our pets to any kind of risk, even if small. It's dinner, its not a gladiator arena.

I'll have to swallow my curiosity and stick with prekilled, to avoid these dicey and unpredictable situations.

I am dramatic about it because I keep these things as pets. And to me, what you did to that baby rat is how most people would feel if you did it to a puppy. Earlier tonight, I was literally in tears. And I will most likely have nightmares later on. That is what animal cruelty does to me. You literally did ruin my night, thank you so much. And for your information domesticated rats are not like wild rats at all, science has proven that even the neurons in their brain fire differently, and they are as seperate from wild rats as dogs are to wolves. Mine show affection, contentment and are happy to see me when I get home. And they have been proven to be as smart as some dogs are. Not only that, but they are very clean, and can be litter box trained. One college has even taught them how to play a mini version of basketball. And recently it has been proven that rats can laugh, actually laugh when they are scritched and played with.

Mainstream society HERE hates rats, but there are also places where rats are worshipped.

Mainstream society also hates snakes......what do you have to say about that?

It is very sad to me that you can't feel empathy towards a baby animal that is only trying to avoid pain and death. An animal that has done nothing to harm you. An animal that would have made a wonderful pet to someone else. Very sad indeed.

 

[7legion77]

I am dramatic about it because I keep these things as pets. And to me, what you did to that baby rat is how most people would feel if you did it to a puppy. Earlier tonight, I was literally in tears. And I will most likely have nightmares later on. That is what animal cruelty does to me. You literally did ruin my night, thank you so much. And for your information domesticated rats are not like wild rats at all, science has proven that even the neurons in their brain fire differently, and they are as seperate from wild rats as dogs are to wolves. Mine show affection, contentment and are happy to see me when I get home. And they have been proven to be as smart as some dogs are. Not only that, but they are very clean, and can be litter box trained. One college has even taught them how to play a mini version of basketball. And recently it has been proven that rats can laugh, actually laugh when they are scritched and played with.

Mainstream society HERE hates rats, but there are also places where rats are worshipped.

Mainstream society also hates snakes......what do you have to say about that?

It is very sad to me that you can't feel empathy towards a baby animal that is only trying to avoid pain and death. An animal that has done nothing to harm you. An animal that would have made a wonderful pet to someone else. Very sad indeed.

The source of lack of empathy is simply ignorance.
They breed them specifically to be fed to snakes and experimented on. That one rat would have never been anyone's pet, it was doomed as was its entire litter because it was meant for average snake owners who probably will feed live.
There are many rats who suffer terrible fates, and there are few lucky enough to thrive under loving owners such as yourself.
Like I said, when I see rats or mice I am conditioned with a response of disgust, even though there's a glimmer of understanding when I begin to respect it as a fellow living mammal seeing it curled comfortably in the pet store, seeing the young ones suckle on the mother before the inevitable occurs.

And this is coming from someone who would never kill a spider or a moth.

And your post is touching. But how could you literally cry over a post you read in a forum, when you know full well that millions of people feed live rats to their snakes every day?

 

[starsevol]

The source of lack of empathy is simply ignorance.
They breed them specifically to be fed to snakes and experimented on. That one rat would have never been anyone's pet, it was doomed as was its entire litter because it was meant for average snake owners who probably will feed live.
There are many rats who suffer terrible fates, and there are few lucky enough to thrive under loving owners such as yourself.
Like I said, when I see rats or mice I am conditioned with a response of disgust, even though there's a glimmer of understanding when I begin to respect it as a fellow living mammal seeing it curled comfortably in the pet store, seeing the young ones suckle on the mother before the inevitable occurs.

And this is coming from someone who would never kill a spider or a moth.

And your post is touching. But how could you literally cry over a post you read in a forum, when you know full well that millions of people feed live rats to their snakes every day?

My 2 pets were supposed to be snake food.
I know snake owners feed live rats to their snakes everyday, and I hate it.
But knowing it happens everyday in general life...cannot compare to logging onto your forum, where you log onto every single day, and read a post not about feeding live (not in the feeders section mind you, which I avoid like the plague, but the section about general snake care)...and it wasn't about feeding live, it was about taking a baby rat and instead of it dying a fast and fairly painless death, it was tortured for who knows how long....while you sit there and scratch your head and wonder why your pet is not a ruthless killer. Your pet that eats humanely killed thawed food just fine. And the image of your very sickening and detailed post is what brought me to tears. You put pictures in my head of things I would rather not even think about. You brought it all to life for me in living color!

If you have a warm blooded pet of any kind, just imagine how you would feel if you logged on here and read a post like what you posted. And instead of a rat it was what you keep as a pet. How would it make you feel? Puppies and kittens can be fed to the big snakes, it does happen.

And how would you feel about a person whose huge snake ate humanely killed puppies just fine, but wants to torture one and wonder why his snake is not a ruthless killer. How would you feel about a person like that?

I very much dislike people who feed live, unless they have a snake that won't eat thawed. And in real life and on here I avoid them at all costs.

edited to add, I would not kill a spider or a moth either. I hate killing things. I am afraid of spiders but they preform a useful service. But they also are not intelligent beings and I would prefer to kill something like that than something that shows love back, as my rats do everyday.

 

[Shiari]

Because you made it more personal, and not an abstract known. I have cried over specific cases of cruelty, though I know, intellectually, that there are probably many cases just as bad out there.

Work against the conditioning. That same logic is applied to gays as well "Well, I was raised that they were icky, and society at large thinks they're icky, so I'm gonna deny them things."

With the rat, you denied it a peaceful death. Instead, it had a prolonged death full of pain and terror. Nothing should have to die like that when we as humans can prevent it.

 

[starsevol]

Because you made it more personal, and not an abstract known. I have cried over specific cases of cruelty, though I know, intellectually, that there are probably many cases just as bad out there.

Work against the conditioning. That same logic is applied to gays as well "Well, I was raised that they were icky, and society at large thinks they're icky, so I'm gonna deny them things."

With the rat, you denied it a peaceful death. Instead, it had a prolonged death full of pain and terror. Nothing should have to die like that when we as humans can prevent it.

Perfectly put Megan, thank you!

 

[skittledoo]

Starsevol and Shiari pretty much stated what I was thinking. I keep rats as pets too and can't imagine them ever having to go through that kind of pain. I used to have a ball python that I fed live rats to wayyyy back before I ever knew snakes could take f/t or even f/k. It was the hardest thing in the world for me to feed that snake and while I know that snakes do eat them live in the wild, I still struggled with feeding live. It made owning a snake hard for me when I really do love snakes.

Now that I'm more knowledgeable about other more humane feeding options, I'm happy to own snakes again. My current snakes do fine on f/t and I see no reason why they should ever have to eat live. I do plan to get another ball at some point and I know that at some point that snake will be big enough to be on rats. I could handle feeding an f/t rat though knowing it was humanely killed.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a couple ratties I feel the need to go snuggle

 

[starsevol]

Starsevol and Shiari pretty much stated what I was thinking. I keep rats as pets too and can't imagine them ever having to go through that kind of pain. I used to have a ball python that I fed live rats to wayyyy back before I ever knew snakes could take f/t or even f/k. It was the hardest thing in the world for me to feed that snake and while I know that snakes do eat them live in the wild, I still struggled with feeding live. It made owning a snake hard for me when I really do love snakes.

Now that I'm more knowledgeable about other more humane feeding options, I'm happy to own snakes again. My current snakes do fine on f/t and I see no reason why they should ever have to eat live. I do plan to get another ball at some point and I know that at some point that snake will be big enough to be on rats. I could handle feeding an f/t rat though knowing it was humanely killed.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a couple ratties I feel the need to go snuggle

Same here, as soon as I am done feeding my hatchlings (humanely killed f/t food), I plan to snuggle with my ratties in front of the tv for an hour or so before bedtime. They need their playtime, and I need them!

 

[ZoologyGirl]

I'm inclined to feed live because it feels more authentic

I don't have necessarily the same feelings about rats as Beth and Megan and others do (As in if I had a snake that ate rats, I would not have a hard time feeding it F/T rats. I probably would have a slightly more difficult time feeding live if I had to, but it would be the same feeling I'd have with live mice). Of course, I understand where they are coming from.

However, I guess I don't understand your statement, about it feeling "authentic". This isn't exactly Italian cuisine or anything here. It sort of reminds me of when I used to be on a bird forum and someone suggesting setting their bird free because it felt more "natural". I don't know, I don't get it. I'm not arguing either, just a statement of misunderstanding.

 

[7legion77]

And the image of your very sickening and detailed post is what brought me to tears. You put pictures in my head of things I would rather not even think about. You brought it all to life for me in living color!

Yeah I've been accused of that before, people have told me I could write horror movies.
Forgive my crass approach to storytelling, at the time I wasn't able to predict that it could elicit such a reaction.

If I had a love for rats, I don't think I would be able to handle frozen ones thaw them and feed them to a snake. But apparently F/T seems to work really well for y'all.

Anyhow, good conversation tonight folks

 

[Shiari]

Yeah I've been accused of that before, people have told me I could write horror movies.
Forgive my crass approach to storytelling, at the time I wasn't able to predict that it could elicit such a reaction.

If I had a love for rats, I don't think I would be able to handle frozen ones thaw them and feed them to a snake. But apparently F/T seems to work really well for y'all.

Anyhow, good conversation tonight folks

That's because those rats have been humanely euthanised. Not crushed and drowned.

 

[7legion77]

I don't have necessarily the same feelings about rats as Beth and Megan and others do (As in if I had a snake that ate rats, I would not have a hard time feeding it F/T rats. I probably would have a slightly more difficult time feeding live if I had to, but it would be the same feeling I'd have with live mice). Of course, I understand where they are coming from.

However, I guess I don't understand your statement, about it feeling "authentic". This isn't exactly Italian cuisine or anything here. It sort of reminds me of when I used to be on a bird forum and someone suggesting setting their bird free because it felt more "natural". I don't know, I don't get it. I'm not arguing either, just a statement of misunderstanding.

Okay, I'll explain it. The reason people feed live. It really is all stigma, and can't be rationally justified. It satisfies a curiosity, because it displays the snakes' uncanny knack for survival as a being who relies purely on stealth and muscle. Maybe it has to do with testosterone, I've had male friends who were in awe of watching a feeding, while my sister refuses to watch.
Its this feral preying ability that fascinates the odd person.
I admit, its totally immature, and it sure isn't worth the risk of a bite or the needless suffering of the rat.

 

[starsevol]

Yeah I've been accused of that before, people have told me I could write horror movies.
Forgive my crass approach to storytelling, at the time I wasn't able to predict that it could elicit such a reaction.

If I had a love for rats, I don't think I would be able to handle frozen ones thaw them and feed them to a snake. But apparently F/T seems to work really well for y'all.

Anyhow, good conversation tonight folks

I have 3 rosy boas, a blotched kingsnake, and over 40 corns...none eat rats. Rats are way too fatty for the animals I keep and would not be good for them. Not only that, I won't keep anything that eats rats, thawed or otherwise. My snakes eat mice.