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"Henry" is a "Henrietta!"

IMHO, parthenogenesis in colubrids would be approximately as unlikely as in humans. I have no data other than what anyone can find google-able.
On the other hand, I have read of the possibility of this in Crotalus sp<----Link.

And aside from Jesus, who should/would (by parthenogenesis) have been female, I don't know of it in humans.

[/sarcasm font]
 
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dreamwallaby said:
My female wouldn't eat after either. She was starving right after her post lay shed though. I'll be interested to see how this goes. The laying eggs as a virgin is pretty common in reptiles and birds (chickens do it regularly :) ) But having them be actually fertile is rare indeed.
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And humans. We women ovulate monthly, if we have had too many wine coolers and get frisky in the back seat without protection we end up on "Teen Moms".

Both my virgin females laid slugs this spring, it is not uncommon at all.
 
vetusvates said:
IMHO, parthenogenesis in colubrids would be approximately as unlikely as in humans.
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Except there are HUGE biological differences between humans and reptiles; humans aren't ectothermic or oviparous, for one. So that's not really a good comparison to make. At any rate, I didn't make this thread to debate the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis; I made it to help keep track of Henrietta's status and health.
 
Total quote.....avec "[/sarcasm]" conclusion :
vetusvates said:
IMHO, parthenogenesis in colubrids would be approximately as unlikely as in humans. I have no data other than what anyone can find google-able.
On the other hand, I have read of the possibility of this in Crotalus sp.

And aside from Jesus, who should/would (by parthenogenesis) have been female, I don't know of it in humans.

[/sarcasm font]
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______________________________________________________________

JentherophisGuttatus said:
Except there are HUGE biological differences between humans and reptiles; humans aren't ectothermic or oviparous, for one. So that's not really a good comparison to make. At any rate, I didn't make this thread to debate the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis; I made it to help keep track of Henrietta's status and health.
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"Huge" is not a particularly scientific term to describe the differences between the squamata and hominids.
But I do thank you for the sophomoric review of "ectothermic" and "oviparous" and their not being human attributes.
My "comparisons" are many, varied, and cast broadly across the intervebz..... ;)
 
vetusvates said:
"Huge" is not a particularly scientific term to describe the differences between the squamata and hominids.
But I do thank you for the sophomoric review of "ectothermic" and "oviparous" and their not being human attributes.
My "comparisons" are many, varied, and cast broadly across the intervebz..... ;)
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I was using Buffy Speak; I know full well that "huge" isn't a scientific term. :p I was just saying that I'd appreciate us not straying too much from the original topic.
 
Original post beginning this thread :
JentherophisGuttatus said:
My wonderful boy, Henry, was adopted way back in 2006 as a hatchling. When I began to get interested in breeding corns, I had Henry sexed by a professional breeder; she sincerely believed that she correctly sexed him as male, and I believed her, too; I was standing right there helping her sex "him," after all, and the probe went in six or seven subcaudial scales.

Wonder of wonders, "he" is actually a "she!" In fact, this virgin snake, raised in total isolation from any other snakes laid 22 eggs! Most were infertile, but a few are actually fertile and healthy looking! I repeat, this snake has never been with any other snake before. So Henry, now "Henrietta," may have little clones soon. I'm not sure how many, if any, will make it. I've heard a lot about parthenogenesis in corn snakes, but I never once dreamed that it would actually happen to me. At least two of the eggs really do look like they might be viable; I'm really hoping they will be. Should be an interesting biology lesson! :cool:
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This bolded, italicized statement in the OP is what I was responding to.
So there is nothing off-topic in my posts.
On topic, I felt the scientific need to clarify that there is no sound scientific literature nor scientific basis to substantiate "parthenogenesis" in corn snakes.
Whatever, whenever, wherever you "heard a lot about" all of this...it had to have been anecdotal, hypothetical, or even jest.
"Parthenogenesis" is not "buffy speak". It is a formal precise scientific term, describing a precise specific phenomenon, that is too often misused flippantly and recklessly,...and certainly misleads anyone without a sound background in biology, evolution, genetics, ontogeny, and phylogeny.
 
Isn't it pretty common for female corns to lay eggs even though they've never been mated?

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Humans we ovulate every month, what causes a snake to develope an egg, does mating instigate it? Or do they normally get reabsorbed in the absence of sperm?

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Snakes do ovulate (although not once a month like we do). Sometimes they do absorb the follicles. They cannot absorb eggs once they are formed, which results in laying of slugs.
I have had a few lay slugs, without having been bred.

That's how I discovered that one of my males was actually a female. "He" laid a pile of slugs!
 
ashleynicole said:
Humans we ovulate every month, what causes a snake to develope an egg, does mating instigate it? Or do they normally get reabsorbed in the absence of sperm?

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Both of my virgin girls laid slugs this spring, both are near males in the same room but have never crossed paths with them. I think pheromones may have something to do with the egg formation and production of slugs instead of re-absorption since spring is mating season. Last spring I only had one snake, Scarlett, a female, and she never acted any different. This year all 6 snakes (4.2) went crazy, not eating, and both girls were so out of sorts before laying the slugs.

Can anyone confirm if I am thinking correctly on this?
 
That does male sense. In the absence external stimulus, follicles do not develope into eggs and are reabsorbed. With some sort of stimulus (pheremones?) Follicles develope into eggs but in the absence of sperm to fertilize they are infertile "slugs". (Is it called sperm in snakes?)

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ashleynicole said:
Right I would think impossible

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Lol...very very very very unlikely. As in Very.

ashleynicole said:
That does male sense. In the absence external stimulus, follicles do not develope into eggs and are reabsorbed. With some sort of stimulus (pheremones?) Follicles develope into eggs but in the absence of sperm to fertilize they are infertile "slugs". (Is it called sperm in snakes?)

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
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Yes, ashleynicole.

This developed into an excellent conversation.
Note, chickens' (birds being the feathered remnants of long dead scalies) slugs are eaten every day for breakfast across the globe.
Note, lol....nor do _they_ exhibit parthenogenesis.....lol.
 
JentherophisGuttatus said:
At any rate, I didn't make this thread to debate the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis...
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I should hope you wouldn't mind discussion on the possibility/frequency (or lack thereof) of parthenogenesis in corns on a thread about possible parthenogenesis in corns?
 
vetusvates said:
On topic, I felt the scientific need to clarify that there is no sound scientific literature nor scientific basis to substantiate "parthenogenesis" in corn snakes.
Whatever, whenever, wherever you "heard a lot about" all of this...it had to have been anecdotal, hypothetical, or even jest.
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I've mainly heard about parthenogenesis from Reptiles Magazine, not just random herpers; there was an incredible story about a rattlesnake in there. They're quite a reputable source.


And to "Chip" who posted this: I should hope you wouldn't mind discussion on the possibility/frequency (or lack thereof) of parthenogenesis in corns on a thread about possible parthenogenesis in corns?

My original comment was "I didn't make this thread to DEBATE the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis." I'm perfectly fine with discussing it, believe me. It's DEBATING that annoys me because debates, as opposed to simple, casual conversations, tend to veer off into many random trails and can be (oddly enough) emotionally charged. I'm not trying to suppress anything; I leave crowd control to the admins. ;)
 
JentherophisGuttatus said:
And to "Chip" who posted this: I should hope you wouldn't mind discussion on the possibility/frequency (or lack thereof) of parthenogenesis in corns on a thread about possible parthenogenesis in corns?

My original comment was "I didn't make this thread to DEBATE the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis." I'm perfectly fine with discussing it, believe me. It's DEBATING that annoys me because debates, as opposed to simple, casual conversations, tend to veer off into many random trails and can be (oddly enough) emotionally charged. I'm not trying to suppress anything; I leave crowd control to the admins. ;)
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I honestly don't think this particular conversation would ever get "emotionally charged"! Discussing and debating is what broadens our minds, and if you get offended or emotional over it, just take a step back and bow out. You came here to let us know that your male is a female and laid slugs, so this thread served its purpose for you, but just realize that the other members here may want to delve deeper into this subject. As the OP, you are not required to stick around for anything else.

Thanks for posting, there are several of us who had females lay slugs this spring too, it is nice to know you aren't alone, and the surprise of having a female instead of a male is just how nature likes to play with us!
 
vetusvates said:
On the other hand, I have read of the possibility of this in Crotalus sp<----Link.
Click to expand...

JentherophisGuttatus said:
I've mainly heard about parthenogenesis from Reptiles Magazine, not just random herpers; there was an incredible story about a rattlesnake in there. They're quite a reputable source.
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Yes, interesting.
It was Crotalus species (north american rattlesnakes, in fact) to which I was referring.
 
Here's a 1998 article from Fauna

Fatherless Sons-Parthenogenesis in Rattlesnakes

Lots of popular media articles from the same time, but this seems like the most "Real" as far as going into the genetics. We theoretically have Herpetological Review access, but as of 1998, apparently it's just scanned journals-keyword searching only works back a decade or so. I'll look through past issues and see if I can find an exact citation for the original research-HR is behind a paywall, but a lot of times, journals can be found elsewhere online if you know exactly what to search for.
 
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