"Henry" is a "Henrietta!"

[Chip]

My original comment was "I didn't make this thread to DEBATE the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis." I'm perfectly fine with discussing it, believe me. It's DEBATING that annoys me because debates, as opposed to simple, casual conversations, tend to veer off into many random trails and can be (oddly enough) emotionally charged. I'm not trying to suppress anything; I leave crowd control to the admins.

It sounds like you are saying we can discuss it as long as it is done in a tone you approve of. If I'm misreading that, all apologies, but please understand these forums are like real life conversations. You don't (politely, anyway) get to dictate discussions others take on. I take a great interest in this thread because of this post:

I already candled them, and it looks like a few are viable.

If what you are saying is accurate, you almost certainly have a scientific first on your hands. You'll have to understand our interest -as well as skepticism. Please keep us updated, and there's no shame if they just turn out to be slugs.

 

[vetusvates]

My wonderful boy, Henry, was adopted way back in 2006 as a hatchling. When I began to get interested in breeding corns, I had Henry sexed by a professional breeder; she sincerely believed that she correctly sexed him as male, and I believed her, too; I was standing right there helping her sex "him," after all, and the probe went in six or seven subcaudial scales.

Wonder of wonders, "he" is actually a "she!" In fact, this virgin snake, raised in total isolation from any other snakes laid 22 eggs! Most were infertile, but a few are actually fertile and healthy looking! I repeat, this snake has never been with any other snake before. So Henry, now "Henrietta," may have little clones soon. I'm not sure how many, if any, will make it. I've heard a lot about parthenogenesis in corn snakes, but I never once dreamed that it would actually happen to me. At least two of the eggs really do look like they might be viable; I'm really hoping they will be. Should be an interesting biology lesson!

Original post beginning this thread :


This bolded, italicized statement in the OP is what I was responding to.
So there is nothing off-topic in my posts.
On topic, I felt the scientific need to clarify that there is no sound scientific literature nor scientific basis to substantiate "parthenogenesis" in corn snakes.
Whatever, whenever, wherever you "heard a lot about" all of this...it had to have been anecdotal, hypothetical, or even jest.
"Parthenogenesis" is not "buffy speak". It is a formal precise scientific term, describing a precise specific phenomenon, that is too often misused flippantly and recklessly,...and certainly misleads anyone without a sound background in biology, evolution, genetics, ontogeny, and phylogeny.

I've mainly heard about parthenogenesis from Reptiles Magazine, not just random herpers; there was an incredible story about a rattlesnake in there. They're quite a reputable source.


And to "Chip" who posted this: I should hope you wouldn't mind discussion on the possibility/frequency (or lack thereof) of parthenogenesis in corns on a thread about possible parthenogenesis in corns?

My original comment was "I didn't make this thread to DEBATE the frequency/viability of parthenogenesis." I'm perfectly fine with discussing it, believe me. It's DEBATING that annoys me because debates, as opposed to simple, casual conversations, tend to veer off into many random trails and can be (oddly enough) emotionally charged. I'm not trying to suppress anything; I leave crowd control to the admins.

Here's a 1998 article from Fauna

Fatherless Sons-Parthenogenesis in Rattlesnakes

Lots of popular media articles from the same time, but this seems like the most "Real" as far as going into the genetics. We theoretically have Herpetological Review access, but as of 1998, apparently it's just scanned journals-keyword searching only works back a decade or so. I'll look through past issues and see if I can find an exact citation for the original research-HR is behind a paywall, but a lot of times, journals can be found elsewhere online if you know exactly what to search for.

Here's one on genetic scans of garter snakes that indicate parthenogenesis

http://www.csub.edu/~dgermano/TcouchiiPartheno.pdf

Here's one from the genetics society journal on parthenogenesis in Burmese pythons

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v90/n2/full/6800210a.html

I haven't found any journal citations on parthenogenesis in corns yet.

Referring to the first appearance of the word parthenogenesis in the original post :

I have read, re-read, and re-re-read, and still don't find :
1) anything emotionally charged, emotional, heated, or otherwise,
2) anything debate-worthy : a debate implies there are two possible answers, and I still find here no data regarding cornsnake parthenogenesis.

I do find :
1) some data here (which I first inserted waaayyyy back in post 21) regarding the possibility of parthenogenesis in north american rattlesnakes, and a bit more by another member regarding garter snakes.....neither of which are oviparous I might add,
2) the need to caution against flippant and reckless use of hard sound scientific words like parthenogenesis. As a student of zoology and science, I must emphasize that the use of precise specific scientific terms is a formal precise exact act, and should be correct, in context, and used knowledgeably,
3) the need to state that Logic dictates that I can not prove that parthenogenesis does not exist in cornsnakes.......any more than I can prove that the tooth fairy does not exist, for I cannot. Does parthenogenesis exist in cornsnakes? Unlikely. Does the Tooth Fairy exist? Unlikely. And will I fall into the trap of trying to prove either do not exist? Unlikely. (see following links)
This is called the fallacy of proving non-existence.
http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absence_of_evidence#Absence_of_evidence

I do know :
1) I am never random. Unless deliberately so, which would mean not random.
2) I am never trailing. Neither trailing on, nor trailing off. I am often on the trail of facts, to which many who know me can attest.
3) A magazine and a scientific journal with data and scientific citations.....are two vastly different things.

 

[JentherophisGuttatus]

I honestly don't think this particular conversation would ever get "emotionally charged"! Discussing and debating is what broadens our minds, and if you get offended or emotional over it, just take a step back and bow out. You came here to let us know that your male is a female and laid slugs, so this thread served its purpose for you, but just realize that the other members here may want to delve deeper into this subject. As the OP, you are not required to stick around for anything else.

Thanks for posting, there are several of us who had females lay slugs this spring too, it is nice to know you aren't alone, and the surprise of having a female instead of a male is just how nature likes to play with us!

Thank YOU for posting this; I've been strained for a number of weeks lately; I needed to read that to switch my perspective to something more positive.

 

[Chip]

How are the eggs looking?

 

[smigon]

Thank YOU for posting this; I've been strained for a number of weeks lately; I needed to read that to switch my perspective to something more positive.

Just remember, no one here is out to hurt anyone's feelings. Sometimes responses come off as harsh or unfeeling, but you have to remember you can't tell what "tone" someone is using. The Smilies do help you know if they are sarcastic or happy.

One major rule here is to consider others feelings. If that isn't followed, a moderator will step in and help to calm things.

I noticed that just about everyone who responded is a well established member here and would never do anything to offend you purposely. vetusvates is one of our "quirkier" members, although his advice is priceless. He knows more about genetics in his pinky finger than I will ever know in a lifetime. He also has a sense of humor that I personally enjoy immensely. I hope you will come to see it as well.

 

[Chip]

Are any eggs still looking viable from this clutch?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Interesting, hate I missed the start of this thread.

Two-ish seasons ago, I had a virgin female lay egg a passel of slugs. In that grouping 4 appeared "plumpy" so they were tossed in the 'bator. I saw what appeared to be veins in 3 of 4 at two weeks out. Around day 25-30 there was less noticeable "veining" and they were starting to look funny, so I cut into one for science. Inside the egg was a lumpy goo pile that had a loose collection of stringy bits, like a slug that absorbed more fluid before turning hard, or whatever slugs do. I'd wager that is what's going on in those plumper eggs.

How are the eggs doing? Any updates?