hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[endrin]

Forever is a long time my friend. Likes and dislikes change over the years. So all you whom dislike hybrids can honestly say that if you were at a show and happen by a snake the when you first saw it thought to yourself "hole crap I want that snake" and found out is was a hybrid, would just leave it and walk away???

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Yep - I would walk away, and be content to admire it from afar LOL. Kind of how I like the boas people are always posting these beautiful photos of and have no desire to own one, and I like some of the BP morphs but I have no desire to own those.
I WOULD find it hard to resist at a show if someone had a pair of Applegate splotched Sinaloans

 

[wade]

I am trying to think of another situation in the pet industry that is comparable to snakes and the hybrid thing. With dogs and cats when you speak of pure bred you are talking about the breed of the dog but they are all still dogs. Poodles and Boxers both belong to the same species. I wonder if gold fish are pure bred or do careless pet shop owners allow them to mingle with the “copper fish”.

If we are talking about maintaining the purity of the gene pool in nature, I am 100% in favor of that as far as is natural. I don’t think we should mess with it one way or the other.

In the pet trade the real world doesn’t apply. That is why we have dogs that couldn’t survive in the wild. OMG pigeons. When I was a kid I raised fancy pigeons. There are some so extreme they can’t raise their own young. They can’t have sex without intervention from the human element. In the pet trade people buy what strikes their eye. They buy what pleases them and they care very little about the genetics involved to develop the animal they are purchasing.

This is the very reason we have all these different morphs of cornsnakes that you will never see in nature. I think when you sell an Amel cornsnake you can assume the buyer knows that isn’t a normal color. I don’t feel the need to explain that. I certainly would if anyone asked. And what is more, I don’t think the buyer cares. When I am a vender at shows, I hear “OOOOH that’s a pretty one. Look at this one honey”. I don’t hear “Now there is a fine example of the cornsnake genes”.

If genetics were important to you, I would think you would want to do a little research and learn about what is involved in the genetics of the snakes you purchase. If you are just looking for something that pleases your eye, then it doesn’t really matter. As I vender, I feel the need to answer any and all questions as honestly and accurately as I can. I don’t feel the need to think of all the unasked questions.

 

[Drizzt80]

North Dakota Chris, they both live in North Dakota. :grin01:

For once I'm NOT the butt of a wade joke!! But seriously, they probably do live around here somewhere . . .

I don’t feel the need to think of all the unasked questions.

I think that hits some nail, somewhere, right on the head.

Anyone who has gotten a creamsicle has eventually found out one way or another that it's a hybrid. Some before purchasing, some after. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I thought it sounded profound.

D80

 

[diamondlil]

Anyone who has gotten a creamsicle has eventually found out one way or another that it's a hybrid. Some before purchasing, some after. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I thought it sounded profound.

D80

I could add to that.....................Anyone who owns a cornsnake has a high probability that they own a hybrid.

 

[wade]

For once I'm NOT the butt of a wade joke!! But seriously, they probably do live around here somewhere . . .

D80

Brent, you know I would never make fun of you. :grin01:

 

[Chip]

I could add to that.....................Anyone who owns a cornsnake has a high probability that they own a hybrid.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

 

[Midnght]

That wouldn't be hard at all. See a snake, you have no idea what it is...you ask. Midnight simply didn't ask...

You're right I didn't.
But in your previous post you also place a rather large assumption that I having owned one corn Snake was highly versed and interested in the defining features and characterstics of corn snakes. Shape of head size of tail etc. That is a might big assumption to place on any consumer if you ask me.

While I wouldn't classify myself a newbie. My interest in the species did not go that far to be able to recognize a corn on sight.

So I assumed, it said corn it was a corn. But as always said when you assume you make an ass of you and me.

So by that statement if it says corn ask no matter what. Cause a corn isn't a corn unlike a pepsi being a pepsi.


As for the whole substrate thing. I'm certainly thinking of changing in the near future to Astro Turf.

But there still hasn't been a whole lot of proof from many more postful users here. You still come off as do as we say because it's the only way.

To which I say.

Any loose substrate can cause impaction. As stated by many of those you trusts judgement. By that argument alone aspen isn't so good either. It abosrbs and can rot, could be eaten can cause impaction, isn't the softest in material in the world. The best substrate is none or astroturf. But you still use aspen despite the potential risk.

Also to note. Most cornsnakes come from sandy pine woods. Hmm sandy? but we shouldn't use sand either.

The real differeance I see here in your concerns are those of a pet owner. For the conditions you put your pet in are not those of the wild which is sound and logical for a long living pet in captivity.

The entire discussion has given me much to think about.

To those who regard my non changing immediately to suit your needs as ego. Well you can think how you want. But you're putting your own snake at risk to with any loose substrate. And trying to force me to change by attacking my character, well it smacks of your own ego thinking it's the only way to do things. You should be helpful not attacking or forcing. Because not everyone agrees with everyone else.

Have Happy Solstice everyone. See you next year.

 

[Midnght]

Really? Some of you think that a breeder is obligated to stand there with a bell and a diagram to explain to every person walking by what a Jungle Corn is? I think that's just ridiculous.

Tyflier you really miss the whole point of this discussion.

I don't think anyone feels you need to stand there and announce it.

But would it kill you to put it on the label? No it wouldn't. Then if they don't ask you're point is completely valid.

At least this is my point on it. Perhaps you do label them as such, if so kudos. Mine was not labled as such. I still take the blame for the loss of a snake I dearly wanted. But the term hybrid in my limited corn characterstic ignorance would have made me ask. I still would have bought her for my wife. But I would not have tried a second attempt at cohabing. In the end a good thing came from it and it should make you happy.

I WILL NEVER try cohabbing my snakes again.

Crappy way of learning the lesson, but good came of it.
Before you say anything about cohabbing lots of trusted breeders owners etc cohab successfully which sent me downthe path to try.

Happy solstice.

 

[Devilscat]

This is the age of computers. There are still a few people out there that don't have them. We use to have an mailstation. Got first computer just 2 years ago. I know that when we got our first snake we got him because we liked the looks of his mother an Albino Okeetee. There will always be people that buy a snake because of visual appearance regardless of whether or not they are hybrids. I do own a hybrid Coral Snow X Kisatchie that will be my personal pet snake. She will probably never be bred. But if I ever bred her I would make sure the buyer new that the babies were hybrids. I think this is very important that this information is listed on every snake that I would sell.

 

[Drizzt80]

So by that statement if it says corn ask no matter what. Cause a corn isn't a corn unlike a pepsi being a pepsi.

Oooh! Excellent example! As a Pepsi drinker (I prefer Coke.), if you saw a Dorfbunkle Pepsi, would you assume it was a regular old "normal" Pepsi, or would you ask "What flavor is that?" Especially since you missed the $4 miillion advertising campaign (ie. internet). . . . I'd guess that you'd ask before consuming cause it may taste like butt.

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

But would it kill you to put it on the label? No it wouldn't. Then if they don't ask you're point is completely valid.

With all due respect it WAS on the label - Jungle Corn.

The point being made is that it is the responsibility of the individual to learn the lingo of any industry/hobby, not the industry/hobbies responsibility to teach the individual. If I decided to get into pop can collecting, it's my responsibility to ask and learn the difference between Dorfbunkle Pepsi and Pepsi.

D80

PS. It was a tough way to learn a lesson, but it makes it that much more valuable as well. I'm a firm believer in learning that way. The lesson's learned are (usually) much longer lasting.

 

[Midnght]

Imagine blaming the bereeder because Midnight didn't know that snake wasn't a corn...That's just NOT the breeder's fault.

You're wrong here tyflier,

The breeder is just as much at fault as I was. If I bought a Junlge corn from you I'd feel the same way. Why because you think people should know more than they, do because a names been used for years, or they should be able to spot a corn on sight, or they should do research on the snake they want. Hmm I'm doing research focused on corn snakes doesn't mean i'm going to come across the Jungle Corn model because you don't know where I've read what I've read how focused it was. sure I know hybrids are out there do I care? not really so I don't investigate the names of them floating around.

Adding the term hybrid is not a lot to ask.

Heck you say there are 4 things everyone should ask. Maybe you should just have a nice sign up to let new owners know what they should ask. thenyou can skip the lables

See there's an old saying, if your not part of the solution your part of the problem.

Would I expect a refund? No I wouldn't. I tried something I knew may not work out. Irregardless of the breed of the snake. I wouldn't even hold you responsible.

But finding out something later would make me say hey tyflier you really should add this on your hybrids for those not in the know. But I wouldn't expect you to offer any compensation for the results of my action. }:>)

 

[ForkedTung]

Oooh! Excellent example! As a Pepsi drinker (I prefer Coke.), if you saw a Dorfbunkle Pepsi, would you assume it was a regular old "normal" Pepsi, or would you ask "What flavor is that?" Especially since you missed the $4 miillion advertising campaign (ie. internet). . . . I'd guess that you'd ask before consuming cause it may taste like butt.

D80

Brent, While I am really enjoying the use of the word Dorfbunkle ( where did you ever hear of such a thing ? lol) ie. Dorfbunkle Pepsi.
I think a more apt analogy would be say 7UP pepsi or MountainDew Coke now that would not only allude to ingredients, but inform as well. Besides Jungle is used as an adjective ( don't see where this came from to begin with) and the noun is the corn, hence cornsnake.
See the whole problem that KJUN pointed out much earlier in this thread is that a Jungle Bungle Corn is not and never will be a cornsnake. Again it is not and never will be, so why is it labeled as such? Do we really expect that everyone is supposed to know the ancient history of it's common ( apparently not so common) usage?
Isn't it feasible to ask that the seller in some way, shape or form, identify a hybrid as a hybrid, without being prompted?

ps) Hybrids don't bother me in the least, after all I do have a few Ultras.

 

[wade]

It is hard to think of all the ramifications of a single act. I guess that is why attorneys put so many labels and warnings on everything. I am getting the impression from Midnight that his Jungle Corn ate a cohabitation mate. I didn’t even think of that.

I have got to say it out loud however. I couldn’t even count how many warnings I have read about the problems associated with cohabitation. Most of them were found in the same places I have read about Jungle Corns being a King/Corn hybrid.

Is there anyone in the room who hasn’t laughed at the warning that a child might drown in a five gallon bucket? Don’t get me wrong. It would be a horrible tragedy. But give me a break, is it really the bucket manufactures responsibility?

 

[Midnght]

I just did a search using the term "creamsicle" and using the subforum "the cultivars" and I found many "What would I get if I crossed a creamsicle with a... ? " threads, all from people who do have the internet. If the fact so many people on this forum have bought a creamsicle and thought it was a pure corn doesn't prove my point that a buyer might not know so it is important for the seller to make it clear, I don't know what else I can do or say. I am done arguing this. Happy Holidays!

I find this all rather amusing suddenly.

Cause guess what my first beloved Timiro far as she was labled was Creamscicle Cornsnake.

And 15 years ago the internet was as it is today. But I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN? Sorry you think I should you're wrong. I was told it was a cornsnake but some how magically i'm supposed to knwo the term creamscile means hybrid. Sorry creamsicle sounds like a coloring.

So with that said guess i'll go see what my first hybrid really was.

Oh man and here I was expected to knwo the differance in looks of a jungle corn form that of a normal corn when I only ever owned another hybrid I thought to belive was a corn.

Hahaha this all too funny.
:rofl:

Happy Solstice Everyone

 

[Drizzt80]

Besides Jungle is used as an adjective ( don't see where this came from to begin with)

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the name Jungle Corn comes from the idea that the pattern "created" on the new snake is similar to a Jungle Carpet Python.

D80

 

[Midnght]

Oooh! Excellent example! As a Pepsi drinker (I prefer Coke.), if you saw a Dorfbunkle Pepsi, would you assume it was a regular old "normal" Pepsi, or would you ask "What flavor is that?" Especially since you missed the $4 miillion advertising campaign (ie. internet). . . . I'd guess that you'd ask before consuming cause it may taste like butt.

D80

Guess that all depends on how dorfbunkle packaged the product I've drunk for years.

}:>)

 

[Midnght]

With all due respect it WAS on the label - Jungle Corn.

The point being made is that it is the responsibility of the individual to learn the lingo of any industry/hobby, not the industry/hobbies responsibility to teach the individual. If I decided to get into pop can collecting, it's my responsibility to ask and learn the difference between Dorfbunkle Pepsi and Pepsi.

D80

PS. It was a tough way to learn a lesson, but it makes it that much more valuable as well. I'm a firm believer in learning that way. The lesson's learned are (usually) much longer lasting.

That's only part of the point.

The point most are focusing on is changing the poor choices made of the past for the future preservation of corns and buyer education. I feel.
Hell I sure have learned a lot and learned even more today.
It's been a great christmas eve gift. }:>)

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I find this all rather amusing suddenly.

Cause guess what my first beloved Timiro far as she was labled was Creamscicle Cornsnake.

And 15 years ago the internet was as it is today. But I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN? Sorry you think I should you're wrong. I was told it was a cornsnake but some how magically i'm supposed to knwo the term creamscile means hybrid. Sorry creamsicle sounds like a coloring.

So with that said guess i'll go see what my first hybrid really was.

Oh man and here I was expected to knwo the differance in looks of a jungle corn form that of a normal corn when I only ever owned another hybrid I thought to belive was a corn.

Hahaha this all too funny.
:rofl:

Happy Solstice Everyone

What? I am one of the people who AGREES a breeder should include hybrid on the label! Sorry I tried to help.

MOST people do not have their head buried this deep in the sand! It is mainly for the reason that some people do that I feel breeders should make sure buyers know it's a hybrid.
You did no research, you thought it was pure corn and cohabbed it - note it is also the cohabbers who don't research that often end up having the "oops" clutches of eggs and selling them as pure corn.. if the snakes don't eat each other that is.

What a train wreck... At least I learned a new funny word.
Dorfbunkle! Dorfbunkle! Dorfbunkle!