diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Tangents? Wouldn't be our forum without 'em!
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hybrids vs. nonhybrids
- Thread starter nlt71
- Start date
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
lol, I went off on a tangent about tangents. gotta love irony!
danny819
New member
I am fairly new to corns and had no idea a jungle corn, creamsicle, turbo ect ect was a hybrid. It wasn't until I joined this forum and read a bunch of threads that I learned and I have been keeping/breeding boids for well over a decade. I am not against hybrids as long as they are labeled as so and it isn't an endangered animal. Some breeders like High End Herps specialise in hybrids and actually have a waiting list for $5000 snakes. In the python world hybreds can be told just from the name, a bateater (my personal favorate snake of any, pure or hybred) is a burmese/ retic cross, a cateater is a afrock/burm cross but neither of those would make someone think they were getting a specific species. There are jungle burms/jungle retics (bateater bred back to either species) but I have never seen one advertised without the 75% 25% notation next to it.
If you are a breeder and you don't label something as a hybrid regardless if you think its the customers responsibility to ask or not, a disgruntled customer will affect your reputation. When I was looking for my albino retic I saw them for sale on KS for as low as $400 shipped but gladly paid twice that for one from NERD. Why? Because NERD is regarded as one of the best in the business. Thats the same reason Bob Clark can charge almost twice what the smaller breeders can, just because it comes from him, his reputation as a top notch breeder allows him to charge whatever he wants and still sell all his animals.
If you are a breeder and you don't label something as a hybrid regardless if you think its the customers responsibility to ask or not, a disgruntled customer will affect your reputation. When I was looking for my albino retic I saw them for sale on KS for as low as $400 shipped but gladly paid twice that for one from NERD. Why? Because NERD is regarded as one of the best in the business. Thats the same reason Bob Clark can charge almost twice what the smaller breeders can, just because it comes from him, his reputation as a top notch breeder allows him to charge whatever he wants and still sell all his animals.
The only reason you think these are any more clear than the corn hybrid names is because you are familiar with them. I had no idea (and have read many ads for them) that those were NOT specific species.
That said, I don't buy things I don't know the care of. And I don't buy things without asking the breeder what they are, and what the requirements are. If I buy something without asking and get it home and treat it like I do my other snakes without bothering to look up it's needs...that is my fault. If I buy something after asking the breeder what it is, and what care it needs, and I get home and find out that the breeder LIED TO ME that is the breeders fault. I have reason to believe this may have happened to me with a boa my boyfriend and I bought (supposed to be a nic) but even then, I place some of the blame on myself for making an impulsive purchase with nothing to go on but the advice of someone who is trying to sell me something.
Maybe I'm just too quick to blame myself and I should be out there placing blame on everyone else instead. Pity my animals would be the ones stuck suffering for my refusal to accept responsibility though.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Nobody is condoning mislabeling, lying, or misrepresenting animals. Nobody is saying it's OK to use labels that are innaccurate to make a sale. That's ludicdrous.
"Jungle Corn" is a term that is used ONLY to describe king/corn hybrids. That is a FACT, not an opinion. That makes it hybrid label. I'm sorry that some of you don't seem to like that, but it is a fact. IF the term "Jungle Corn" was used to describe a morph, a species, AND a hybrid, I would agree that further clarification would be needed. However, it is ONLY used to describe hybrids. ONLY. That means it's sole purpose as a trade name is to describe a hybrid snake. It is a term specifically created to describe a hybrid. What more do you want?
I wrote a long response to you, Midnight, but I deleted it because I can't say what I really want to.
Take responsibility for your own actions. The breeder didn't co-hab your snakes, and he CERTAINLY didn't try AGAIN after one died. You DON'T know enough to be a pet owner. Not a responsible one, at least...
"Jungle Corn" is a term that is used ONLY to describe king/corn hybrids. That is a FACT, not an opinion. That makes it hybrid label. I'm sorry that some of you don't seem to like that, but it is a fact. IF the term "Jungle Corn" was used to describe a morph, a species, AND a hybrid, I would agree that further clarification would be needed. However, it is ONLY used to describe hybrids. ONLY. That means it's sole purpose as a trade name is to describe a hybrid snake. It is a term specifically created to describe a hybrid. What more do you want?
I wrote a long response to you, Midnight, but I deleted it because I can't say what I really want to.
Take responsibility for your own actions. The breeder didn't co-hab your snakes, and he CERTAINLY didn't try AGAIN after one died. You DON'T know enough to be a pet owner. Not a responsible one, at least...
danny819
New member
The only reason you think these are any more clear than the corn hybrid names is because you are familiar with them. I had no idea (and have read many ads for them) that those were NOT specific species.
Very true, but with the prices on those animals running from two thousand to five thousand plus dollars I can't imagine many are bought on a whim. I have never seen an ad for them where it didn't say that it was a hybrid and on Bob Clarks pricelist they are listed under the hybred section. Even with the jungle burm/retics someone would have to ask themselves "why is a burmese python $70 and a jungle burmese python $1500" . I guess the price makes it easier for people to make an uninformed impulse purchase, spending a hundred or so dollars isn't a big deal but when it turns into a thousand or more people think twice.
Very true, but with the prices on those animals running from two thousand to five thousand plus dollars I can't imagine many are bought on a whim. I have never seen an ad for them where it didn't say that it was a hybrid and on Bob Clarks pricelist they are listed under the hybred section. Even with the jungle burm/retics someone would have to ask themselves "why is a burmese python $70 and a jungle burmese python $1500" . I guess the price makes it easier for people to make an uninformed impulse purchase, spending a hundred or so dollars isn't a big deal but when it turns into a thousand or more people think twice.
tricksterpup
I has nuttin to Say.
You know, I will have to say that when it comes to the Corn crosses it can be easy to tell them apart. Its usually the markings that will set the snake apart or the Size as in the Turbo Corn.
It starts to get real difficult when its similar species. still the big Corn x Rat cross is the big one. Or what about crosses in similar species.
This animal was picked up for me and thought it would be an interesting snake for my collection. It is a pueblan x nelson mix. Its a milk snake but its pretty close to a pueblan or a similar milk snake, could any one tell it was a mix?
If this guy was so squirley I would take better pictures of it.
It starts to get real difficult when its similar species. still the big Corn x Rat cross is the big one. Or what about crosses in similar species.
This animal was picked up for me and thought it would be an interesting snake for my collection. It is a pueblan x nelson mix. Its a milk snake but its pretty close to a pueblan or a similar milk snake, could any one tell it was a mix?
If this guy was so squirley I would take better pictures of it.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
No one said that the person who bought the snake is free of responsibilities. It should go both ways. And I think every side should make all the possible steps to guarantee that the snake ends up in good, responsible and capable hands.
Printing the word "Hybrid" on the label, to me, seems like a logical step. To others it may not, but this is -MY- opinion and take on the matter. As both a customer and breeder.
Printing the word "Hybrid" on the label, to me, seems like a logical step. To others it may not, but this is -MY- opinion and take on the matter. As both a customer and breeder.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Kokopelli-
Answer this for me...When I sell a Ghost cornsnake, is it acceptable to siomply write "Ghost Corn", or do you feel that I should label it, "Ghost Corn: Double recessive genetics in a homozygous state"?
See...no one answered that question when I posed it earlier.
Here is the fact: A "Ghost Corn" is the accepted term for a cornsnake that is homozygous for hypo A and anery A, and is used ONLY for that description. NOBODY feels that any more label is necessary other than that.
Beginners don't know what a ghost corn is. Beginners can't tell it is not a normal based on the look. Beginners have no idea what a "ghost corn" is. Yet..."Ghost Corn" is the only label needed to accurately sell that animal.
Why is it any different for "Jungle Corn"? IMO, it shouldn't be. It is ONLY used for the description of a hybrid. It is used extensively as an appropriate trade name for a KNOWN hybrid.
Nobody cares whether or not a newbie knows what a "ghost corn" is. But all of a sudden...breeders are expected to take extra steps. extra precautions, and extra time to protect newbies from themselves?
I have pictures of corns labled as corns. I have pictures of kings labeled as kings. WHEN I have hybrids, they will be labled with the trade name, and grouped in the hybrids section.
Is it really MY responsibility to do any more than that? If someone asks, they get an honest and reliable answer. There really isn't much more I can do.
If someone sends me an email and says, "I'm interested in the Jungle Corn you have for sale. How much is shipping to....?" I am not going to send an email saying, "You know that a Jungle is a hybrid. It is 50% king and 50% corn. Because of this you shouldn't co-hab, and you shouldn't try to breed for corn morphs...etc,etc,etc..."
No...I'm going to send an email that says, "Shipping is $____. I accept PayPal, Postal MO, and personal checks."
The snake was sold ACCURATELY as a HYBRID. It was NOT mislabled, it was NOT misrepresented, and it was NOT sold as anything other than a hybrid.
Any confusion from that scenario is CLEARLY the fault of the buyer, NOT the seller.
Answer this for me...When I sell a Ghost cornsnake, is it acceptable to siomply write "Ghost Corn", or do you feel that I should label it, "Ghost Corn: Double recessive genetics in a homozygous state"?
See...no one answered that question when I posed it earlier.
Here is the fact: A "Ghost Corn" is the accepted term for a cornsnake that is homozygous for hypo A and anery A, and is used ONLY for that description. NOBODY feels that any more label is necessary other than that.
Beginners don't know what a ghost corn is. Beginners can't tell it is not a normal based on the look. Beginners have no idea what a "ghost corn" is. Yet..."Ghost Corn" is the only label needed to accurately sell that animal.
Why is it any different for "Jungle Corn"? IMO, it shouldn't be. It is ONLY used for the description of a hybrid. It is used extensively as an appropriate trade name for a KNOWN hybrid.
Nobody cares whether or not a newbie knows what a "ghost corn" is. But all of a sudden...breeders are expected to take extra steps. extra precautions, and extra time to protect newbies from themselves?
I have pictures of corns labled as corns. I have pictures of kings labeled as kings. WHEN I have hybrids, they will be labled with the trade name, and grouped in the hybrids section.
Is it really MY responsibility to do any more than that? If someone asks, they get an honest and reliable answer. There really isn't much more I can do.
If someone sends me an email and says, "I'm interested in the Jungle Corn you have for sale. How much is shipping to....?" I am not going to send an email saying, "You know that a Jungle is a hybrid. It is 50% king and 50% corn. Because of this you shouldn't co-hab, and you shouldn't try to breed for corn morphs...etc,etc,etc..."
No...I'm going to send an email that says, "Shipping is $____. I accept PayPal, Postal MO, and personal checks."
The snake was sold ACCURATELY as a HYBRID. It was NOT mislabled, it was NOT misrepresented, and it was NOT sold as anything other than a hybrid.
Any confusion from that scenario is CLEARLY the fault of the buyer, NOT the seller.
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
A ghost is still a pure corn. Babies from the ghost will still be corns if it is bred to a corn. A jungle is not pure corn and will have hybrid offspring with a corn if it mates instead of eating it.
I don't agree with the general statement "nobody cares if a newbie knows what a ghost is". Maybe Chris "doesn't care if a newbie knows what a ghost is" and maybe "many breeders don't care if a newbie knows what a ghost is" but I do and I am fairly sure there are other breeders who do too.
I care even more that a newbie knows what a jungle corn is. I would feel some responsibility if I produced a hybrid to prevent mislabeling of its possible future offspring, and also I would want to include on a label the percent of corn versus king blood in there. This isn't about protecting newbies from themselves, to me it is about protecting future bloodlines by making sure people don't mislabel the offspring they sell from a hybrid they unknowingly buy.
The most well known, established, respected breeders with excellent reputations got those reputations by offering excellent customer service and support. They were willing to go the extra mile to help customers learn! And their customers kept coming back and told their friends. Have you seen how many times Kathy Love goes out of her way to educate new owners on this forum? She must have heard it all a gazillion times but she is always generous with her time and willing to help others. That's why people love her.
Doing the very minimum required to inform a buyer is not good customer service. My time is as valuable as anybody else, but I do not resent spending it on educating someone, especially when it comes to hybrids which I don't want polluting the corn population down the line. Nor would I ever want a customer to feel like I didn't have the time or patience or inclination to help educate them just because they are new and don't know everything they should yet. New owners are usually pretty easy to spot. If I was selling a jungle to someone I had seen around on the forums that I knew to be knowledgeable I might not find it necessary to explain what it is, but if they are obvious newbies I'm not going to consider myself above making a little extra effort as a responsible breeder to educate someone.
ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
JEN:
Ghost Corn
Ghost ( attributive adjective) Corn ( noun)
This is correct and indicates a cornsnake.
Jungle Corn
Jungle ( attributive adjective) Corn (noun)
This is incorrect because the noun indicates it's a cornsnake, IT IS NOT a cornsnake.
Jungle Corn Hybrid
Jungle ( a. adjective) Corn ( another attributive adjective) Hybrid ( noun)
This is correct, informative and more likely to induce questions from noobs as well as keeping corns bloodlines "pure".
Just because something was labeled inaccurately in the past, does not alleviate us from the responsibility to correct that mistake now.
ps) Kathy Love is the best of the best!
Exactly, How about we look at it this way:
Ghost Corn
Ghost ( attributive adjective) Corn ( noun)
This is correct and indicates a cornsnake.
Jungle Corn
Jungle ( attributive adjective) Corn (noun)
This is incorrect because the noun indicates it's a cornsnake, IT IS NOT a cornsnake.
Jungle Corn Hybrid
Jungle ( a. adjective) Corn ( another attributive adjective) Hybrid ( noun)
This is correct, informative and more likely to induce questions from noobs as well as keeping corns bloodlines "pure".
Just because something was labeled inaccurately in the past, does not alleviate us from the responsibility to correct that mistake now.
ps) Kathy Love is the best of the best!
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
ForkedTung, you're analogy is flawed.
The PHRASE "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, is a term used SOLELY for the description of hybrid king/corn snakes. It is not an adjective and a noun, it is a name...a name SOLELY CREATED to describe these hybrids. It's not a Jungle, it's a Jungle Corn. It's not a corn, it's a Jungle Corn. The words are used together as a name, not independantly. Seperated the words have completely different meanings and uses in and out of the snake community. Together, they mean only ONE THING...hybrid.
Jen--
What bloodlines are you trying to protect? Your own? So don't buy hybrids. Your bloodlines are protected. You can't protect people from themselves. You can't sit yourself on a high horse and claim to produce only "pure blood corns" if you deal with ANY questionable genes, and the bottom loine is...they are ALL questionable.
So really...what bare you trying to protect? Until there is a way to determine through mtDNA testing the absolute purity of ANY cornsnake...all of your bluster us really just a way to make yourself feel superior to anyone dealing with hybrids. You have no proof that every animal in your collection isn't a hybrid. At least if I produce Jungle Corns...I'll KNOW for a FACT what they are...instead of just pretending I do so I can feel superior to someone else...
The PHRASE "Jungle Corn", in it's ENTIRETY, is a term used SOLELY for the description of hybrid king/corn snakes. It is not an adjective and a noun, it is a name...a name SOLELY CREATED to describe these hybrids. It's not a Jungle, it's a Jungle Corn. It's not a corn, it's a Jungle Corn. The words are used together as a name, not independantly. Seperated the words have completely different meanings and uses in and out of the snake community. Together, they mean only ONE THING...hybrid.
Jen--
What bloodlines are you trying to protect? Your own? So don't buy hybrids. Your bloodlines are protected. You can't protect people from themselves. You can't sit yourself on a high horse and claim to produce only "pure blood corns" if you deal with ANY questionable genes, and the bottom loine is...they are ALL questionable.
So really...what bare you trying to protect? Until there is a way to determine through mtDNA testing the absolute purity of ANY cornsnake...all of your bluster us really just a way to make yourself feel superior to anyone dealing with hybrids. You have no proof that every animal in your collection isn't a hybrid. At least if I produce Jungle Corns...I'll KNOW for a FACT what they are...instead of just pretending I do so I can feel superior to someone else...
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
IMHO, any hybrid (snake parented by differing genera) should be named after this formula, as an example :
Cornsnake Kingsnake Hybrid.
BlackRatSnake BlackRacer Hybrid.
CornSnake BlackRatSnakeGroup Hybrid.
Mixing genuses/genera should be discussed back and forth enough between a seller and a buyer to make sure everyone knows that the snake is a product of captively-induced behavior, that would ordinarily never happen in the wild.
Note, I have avoided making an ethical/judgment call on the practice. So no attacks from that quarter.
As a degreed herp-keeper/taxonomist, my problem is this : that any teenager with the money to buy a corn and a king can get the two and breed the two.
Cornsnake Kingsnake Hybrid.
BlackRatSnake BlackRacer Hybrid.
CornSnake BlackRatSnakeGroup Hybrid.
Mixing genuses/genera should be discussed back and forth enough between a seller and a buyer to make sure everyone knows that the snake is a product of captively-induced behavior, that would ordinarily never happen in the wild.
Note, I have avoided making an ethical/judgment call on the practice. So no attacks from that quarter.
As a degreed herp-keeper/taxonomist, my problem is this : that any teenager with the money to buy a corn and a king can get the two and breed the two.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Oh, and just as a matter of clarification...
You hit the nail directly on the head with the Kathy Love analogy. She DOES asnwer hundreds of emails and phonecalls from beginners everyday...But that is PRECISELY the point...she ANSWERS. People ask, and she answers. Period. She doesn't jump on line and send emails to every new member of cs.com, informing them of everything they don't know. She doesn't spend her day calling random phone numbers and giving people information they don't have...
SHE ANSWERS QUESTIONS.
Precisely what a good breeder should do. Also precisely what many of us in this topic have been saying SHOULD be done...ANSWERING QUESTIONS.
BUT...in order to answer those questions....someone needs to actually ASK them...even for Kathy...they need to be asked...
You hit the nail directly on the head with the Kathy Love analogy. She DOES asnwer hundreds of emails and phonecalls from beginners everyday...But that is PRECISELY the point...she ANSWERS. People ask, and she answers. Period. She doesn't jump on line and send emails to every new member of cs.com, informing them of everything they don't know. She doesn't spend her day calling random phone numbers and giving people information they don't have...
SHE ANSWERS QUESTIONS.
Precisely what a good breeder should do. Also precisely what many of us in this topic have been saying SHOULD be done...ANSWERING QUESTIONS.
BUT...in order to answer those questions....someone needs to actually ASK them...even for Kathy...they need to be asked...
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
But it ISN'T done that way. These animals have been given TRADE NAMES, which are accepted and used throughout the community. These trade names are automatically understood to represent the animal as a hybrid.
The bottom line is that any goofball woith a couple bucks and the desire can STILL breed hybrids, regardless of what responsible keepers and breeders do. Why do people want to condemn those of us that actually DO take time to educate ourselves because of the actions of those that do NOT take the time to educate themselves?
In other words...why am I expected to "dimb down" in order to be considered "responsible"? Why can't other people be expected to "smarten up"?
I HATE being forced to cater to the lowest common denominator. It's time for EVERYONE to take more responsibility for themselves, step up, LEARN something, and stop trying to blame other people for their own ignorance. An accepted trade name is just that...accepted. It IS the name. "Jungle Corn" IS a hybrid...it is ONLY a hybrid. Why should I play dumb so someone else doesn't need to make any effort?
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
That is exactly why buying from a reputable breeder is better than picking one up off craigslist... To me, the argument of they are all hybrids so why even bother trying to do anything about it now seems like a cop out. I have already said in a previous post that I wonder how "pure" my corns really are. Even so, I still want to keep the hybrid blood out as much as possible and it is important to me.
It used to be important to you as well going by this post you once made.. what happened? http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=414936&postcount=15
It used to be important to you as well going by this post you once made.. what happened? http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=414936&postcount=15
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
If you are selling snakes to (making money off of) the lowest common denominator....that is just it, you should be speaking their language.
With the privilege of hybridizing differing genera of snakes, comes responsiblity for having and exercising that power.
Likewise, the President of the United States can't be a leader to just a few, just his friends, just his socio-economic equals, just his party. In everything he does, he must include the understanding of the common man in the decisions he makes. At least in theory. I know this sounds pollyanna, but I am an idealist, and I believe this to be true.
They can ask for it, but I don't give cigarettes and beer to 12 year old's. It's my responsibility to know better.
Caryl
BrightHope
There have been many good points made in this thread. Of course, people are responsible for researching their own purchases, particularly when a live animal is involved. We all know that's not what always happens.
Naturally, reputable breeders practice honest labelling and answer questions when asked. Responsible buyers ask questions when they don't understand a label. Yes, there are standard, commonly used, understood-by-hobbyists trade names for hybrids. Labelling a snake with one of these names is, as tyflier says, labelling it a hybrid. No deception is intended.
The source of confusion is the appending of "corn" to the hybrid's name. When my son was interested in buying a snake a few years ago, we researched. My vote went to corns; he liked corns and kings. I called our local pet shop to ask if they had either type of snake at the time and was told "both." We made the 40-minute trip to the pet store. We were shown baby California king snakes and creamisicle corns. The mom-and-pop shop didn't know the creamsicles were hybrids, and even argued about it. The owner said the hybrid babies (and the rootbeer corn they'd sold) WERE corns because the breeder sold the babies as "choose-your-term corns," which meant corn snakes...... and if it didn't, well then, why didn't it?
I applaud wonderful pet store people like elrojo. I'm not about to defend people who don't do their research, and this particular item isn't hard to find. It's also true that, for a person new to corn snake terminology, "creamsicle corn" is as easily interpreted as "recessive gene combo corn snake" as "caramel corn."
Trade names are established; buyers need to be responsible. Fine. I'm in complete agreement, but I'm left wondering something. How did it become the standard to append "corn" to so many of these hybrid monikers?
Naturally, reputable breeders practice honest labelling and answer questions when asked. Responsible buyers ask questions when they don't understand a label. Yes, there are standard, commonly used, understood-by-hobbyists trade names for hybrids. Labelling a snake with one of these names is, as tyflier says, labelling it a hybrid. No deception is intended.
The source of confusion is the appending of "corn" to the hybrid's name. When my son was interested in buying a snake a few years ago, we researched. My vote went to corns; he liked corns and kings. I called our local pet shop to ask if they had either type of snake at the time and was told "both." We made the 40-minute trip to the pet store. We were shown baby California king snakes and creamisicle corns. The mom-and-pop shop didn't know the creamsicles were hybrids, and even argued about it. The owner said the hybrid babies (and the rootbeer corn they'd sold) WERE corns because the breeder sold the babies as "choose-your-term corns," which meant corn snakes...... and if it didn't, well then, why didn't it?
I applaud wonderful pet store people like elrojo. I'm not about to defend people who don't do their research, and this particular item isn't hard to find. It's also true that, for a person new to corn snake terminology, "creamsicle corn" is as easily interpreted as "recessive gene combo corn snake" as "caramel corn."
Trade names are established; buyers need to be responsible. Fine. I'm in complete agreement, but I'm left wondering something. How did it become the standard to append "corn" to so many of these hybrid monikers?
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Because "corn" (snakes) is familiar and implies esthetic and behavioral pleasing qualities.
And because "corn" (snakes) sells.