In reference to the 'C' Anerythristics...

[KJUN]

I believe the author's point is that the Butter Motley offspring, while not inheriting the Ultra gene, may still have inherited other, unexpressed but present, non-corn snakes genes, assuming Ultra originated from a hybrid.

Yes what he means is that IF ultras a hybrids, then the butters from an ultra dad are also hybrids even if they aren't ultras. They are being sold as regular butters - not "butters from an ultra lineage). IF they are hybrids, they are currently being misrepresented. That clear up my (and possibly his/her) concern?

 

[bv7086]

Right....I guess saying "ultra lineage" might not be the proper term, but what I meant was, although the ultra gene is gone for all intensive purposes in the butters, the lineage itself was from a snake that some people consider a hybrid. I do realize that an amel snake can't be "het for ultra", but it can be decended from an ultramel.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, how many cultivars over the years have been accused by someone or another as being "hybrids"? Offhand, I can remember, Blizzards, Lavenders, Caramels, Stripes, Sunkisseds, Ultras, Silver Queens, Charcoals, 'C' Anerythristics, Upper Keys, and anything frosted. :rofl:

You would have to list virtually EVERY lineage of that snake right on the label for each animal.

It sure would be quite a challenge to print all that info on a label fitting on a deli cup.

I, for one, am not going to do it. :shrugs:

 

[jaxom1957]

You would have to list virtually EVERY lineage of that snake right on the label for each animal....
I, for one, am not going to do it.

At some point, the exercise becomes absurd. By the seventh generation, the progeny of a 50/50 hybrid have, in all probability, less than 1% non-corn snake genes. While I believe in providing as much information as is practical to a buyer, requiring a breeder to inform the buyer that there is such an extremely remote possibility that an other than corn snake gene might be present makes no practical sense. What purpose would it serve?

My first corn snake was a creamsicle (still is a creamsicle ). I bred him with an amel recently. When the time comes to sell the offspring, I will provide accurate descriptions of both parents, including the probability that the sire has non-corn genes, regardless of whether the offspring show creamsicle traits. However, at some point in future generations, I will probably stop mentioning the creamsicle heritage, simply because it will no longer possess any likelihood of being expressed. I would do the same for any offspring of a snake that might be het for some trait: once the probability of being expressed becomes remote, the information has little value and should play no role in the breeding decisions for the offspring.

Just as I don't care what dogs Herr Doberman used to produce his eponymous breed, I don't care whether my lavender male got his lavender as a result of a chance mutation or as the result of great-great-grandpa Corn making whoopee with great-great-grandma Emory or Yellow. It doesn't make him more or less beautiful, nor does it make his offspring more or less attractive. If a buyer or breeder is so concerned with purity of species, let him or her breed nothing but classics, destroying any offspring that dare to express a less-than corn snake mien. On whose door do you think the future buyers will be pounding? If it looks, eats, sheds, moves and produces offspring like a corn snake, call it a corn snake already.

 

[bv7086]

Exactly....I'm glad you said that! Those are my thoughts, too. It's gone way too far to even matter any more as far as I'm concerned. Imagine how many amels and amel combos, het amels, etc. that have come from ultramel crosses already out there, since before ultra was even recognized. It's just an amel after all, nothing that would require a "warning label" LOL!!!
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now everyone...you can chill out, because that amel your looking at is (possibly) no different than an ultramel as far as parentage is concerned....you can't prove otherwise in my book.

 

[Menhir]

The problem is a lack of STRONG evidence.

The problem are breeders that use the argument of "NO ONE CAN KNOW FOR SURE" to label animals with respect to business first instead of thinking about labeling as clear as it is possible.

And of course, it is very conclusive to me, that an equal mutation may happen both in the corn snake and in the rat snake with the coincidence of a little hybridization in a line... :eek1:

To me, I would like to hear people saying that they do not care about Ultra being a Rat Snake gene because they like the morphs and want to sell animals instead of pagewise discussions with strange arguments to make their behaviour somehow "right" or "honest" or "reputable" - whatever you'd like to call it.

 

[Rich Z]

I have yet to hear of any valid evidence showing how hybridization creates mutations..............

 

[KJUN]

I have yet to hear of any valid evidence showing how hybridization creates mutations..............

I think I mentioned this, but Jim Kane bred a L. mexicana to an L. alterna and got anerythristic animals. The F1s were hybrids, and the alleles matched up to be able to produce the first anerythrisics for that complex. Doesn't this fit your definition of new mutations popping up through hybridization for mutations that weren't previously known?

...or is that not wehat you are asking for?

 

[Menhir]

I have yet to hear of any valid evidence showing how hybridization creates mutations..............

Maybe you should attend some genetics lectures again if this is really the case. I hope you'd just wanted to find some kind words for me.

Of course, an allel from a different species can have a totally different affect when having to deal with allels from another species. It is absolutely possible, that the Ultra allele is not visible in ratsnakes, but gets visible when having to deal with cornsnake allels and cornsnake genes floating around.
The same thing may be true when pairing an Amel cornsnake to whatever ratsnake. In that Hibird, no one knows if that Amel gene is still blocking melanin or is recessive or codominent or even dominant.

I still see strong, and to me very strong hints, that the Ultra gen is not native to a cornsnake but instead swapped over from the rats and I'm quite sure that time and future breedings will show that. You can quote me than in either direction but meanwhile, I will tell my customers what they may get and what may not... but hey, it's ok to give it a nice label and say, that there were a few geeks out there discussion hybridization and one would have been able to know. But I think that its also ok to state that I don't see that as reputable breeding and selling.

Greetings

 

[Rich Z]

I think I mentioned this, but Jim Kane bred a L. mexicana to an L. alterna and got anerythristic animals. The F1s were hybrids, and the alleles matched up to be able to produce the first anerythrisics for that complex. Doesn't this fit your definition of new mutations popping up through hybridization for mutations that weren't previously known?

...or is that not wehat you are asking for?

I still don't take that as any real evidence, as far as it goes. People have been breeding Mex Mex and Alternas together for ages. If that particular crossing produced hybrids, we would be knee deep in Anerythristics right now. Are the odds of either one of them spontaneously producing a new genetic type more or less than the breeding them together as a "hybrid"? Were both of the outcrossed to their own "types" to see if either (or both) carried that anerythristic gene separately?

One factor that cannot be discounted is LUCK. Some people have none, while others have GOBS of it.

The argument seemingly being presented by some people is that breeding ANYTHING to corn snakes via hybridization is the only way to get something new these days. I guess things have changed substantially since Amelanism and 'A' Anerythrism were found in corn snakes. Or were those the results of hybridization as well?

 

[KJUN]

I still don't take that as any real evidence, as far as it goes. People have been breeding Mex Mex and Alternas together for ages. If that particular crossing produced hybrids, we would be knee deep in Anerythristics right now. Are the odds of either one of them spontaneously producing a new genetic type more or less than the breeding them together as a "hybrid"? Were both of the outcrossed to their own "types" to see if either (or both) carried that anerythristic gene separately?

Well, on that case, Jim sold the adults off to different people before the eggs hatched. Good luck AND bad luck, right?

I think I see what you are saying now, though. Hybridization doesn't CREATE new alleles. It can't. Alleles exist or don't. They are created via random mutation regardless of what the cross of the parents. I'm pretty sure you know this. What I BELIEVE you are asking for is proof that an allele behaves differently in a hybrid than it does in a pure one, correct? In other words, you are asking for proof that a normal "cal-king" allele turns out to be an allele for "patternless" in "cornsnakes," right? (Stuff in quotes represents nothing more than a hypothetical example I pulled out of my butt for sake of discussion.) Right?

I know of some examples that people BELIEVE are due to the above scenario, but let me think of if I can bring up a definite example to mind. I don't know that I can, but I despise hybrids so much that scenario could be common without mebeing aware of it.

 

[Rich Z]

Maybe you should attend some genetics lectures again if this is really the case. I hope you'd just wanted to find some kind words for me.

Perhaps. But I would accept valid cites posted here in lieu of attending those lectures.....

Of course, an allel from a different species can have a totally different affect when having to deal with allels from another species. It is absolutely possible, that the Ultra allele is not visible in ratsnakes, but gets visible when having to deal with cornsnake allels and cornsnake genes floating around.

Sure, anything is possible. It's also possible to say that aliens created the ultras after they abducted corn snakes aboard their UFOs. But does claiming that something is possible then make it probable? Then get extrapolated that all currently new genetic traits are also probable hybrids by extrapolation of some odd train of logic? That does seem to be the general trend these days. To have someone pull the hybrid label out of their hat for everything new that comes along.

The same thing may be true when pairing an Amel cornsnake to whatever ratsnake. In that Hibird, no one knows if that Amel gene is still blocking melanin or is recessive or codominent or even dominant.

Sure, that may be true as well. But is it? Certainly with all the hybridization going on between corns and other species and genera, this should be common knowledge if it were true. I'm just asking for someone to show me such knowledge.

I still see strong, and to me very strong hints, that the Ultra gen is not native to a cornsnake but instead swapped over from the rats and I'm quite sure that time and future breedings will show that. You can quote me than in either direction but meanwhile, I will tell my customers what they may get and what may not... but hey, it's ok to give it a nice label and say, that there were a few geeks out there discussion hybridization and one would have been able to know. But I think that its also ok to state that I don't see that as reputable breeding and selling.

And what "very strong hints" are these? I've been working with Ultras for more than 10 years now, and any hints I may have seen are no stronger than others from other genetic lines that can't be pinned on variations in individuals. So what hints are these that you are seeing?

And while we are on this topic, what "hints" do you get from the Sunkisseds, if I may ask?

As for what I put on my labels, I feel I am within my rights to put what I think is correct and accurate, and not what someone else may have vague hints and suspicions about. Otherwise how should I do this when I am labelling my animals? Take a poll and ask if there is anyone at all that feels that something else may possibly have hints of being a hybrid, and then be compelled to label my snakes accordingly, regardless of my own opinion? Heck, during the first Blizzards I sent out, I had someone accuse them of being rat snakes rather than corns. Should I include that vote as well?

Sorry to disagree with you, but personally I don't know of anyone who can make that call at this time. Maybe the Ultras are hybrids and rock solid evidence from a rock solid source will appear. Or perhaps some hint will become apparent to me to make me believe they are positively hybrids. But until that time, I can't see handling this any way other than I already am.

 

[KJUN]

Heck, during the first Blizzards I sent out, I had someone accuse them of being rat snakes rather than corns. Should I include that vote as well?

I think I remember that. The customer thought they were hybrids because they were "too mean to be cornsnakes," right? Is that your story, or am I mixing you up with some other breeder that was told that?

I'm not trying to drag up an old sore spot, but I remember hearing about thise, and your post just reminded me about it, and I got a chuckle....lol. Thanks.

:-offtopic
KJ

 

[Rich Z]

I think I remember that. The customer thought they were hybrids because they were "too mean to be cornsnakes," right? Is that your story, or am I mixing you up with some other breeder that was told that?

I'm not trying to drag up an old sore spot, but I remember hearing about thise, and your post just reminded me about it, and I got a chuckle....lol. Thanks.

:-offtopic
KJ

Yeah, I think so. He posted on my old original message board on my SerpenCo site. He also claimed the belly scute count was incorrect for corn snakes. Then he later admitted that he took the snakes to a local herp club and he had made a mistake counting the scales or something...

Man, you just GOTTA love selling retail..... :grin01:

 

[Menhir]

Sure, anything is possible. It's also possible to say that aliens created the ultras after they abducted corn snakes aboard their UFOs.

The whole argumentation gets childish and I'm not going to keep the discussion going that way.

But does claiming that something is possible then make it probable?

Wonna tell a computer science Ph.D. student about probabilities? Maybe we should discuss the probability of a single allel popping up in so many lines under different names like T+, Ultra and whatever. Many heaving to deal with Hibirds in that lines or at least signs of em. How often did Lavender, Caramel etc. pop up suddenly all over the lines? What are the probabilities, that Carols Rat Hibird also carries ultra by conincidence?

Then get extrapolated that all currently new genetic traits are also probable hybrids by extrapolation of some odd train of logic?

Maybe my experiences over the last years erased the god status you once had in my mind - but when reading this, I think I remember why I erased.

As for what I put on my labels, I feel I am within my rights to put what I think is correct and accurate, and not what someone else may have vague hints and suspicions about.

You may have any right you want to. I was just stating, that vague hints and suspicions are enough for me to inform my customers about possible "problems". I learned this from the guys dealing with locality animals and I think that this is the most honest way to deal with such animals. And I feel I am within my right to say this, isn't it?

Maybe the Ultras are hybrids and rock solid evidence from a rock solid source will appear.

As said - turn it around, maybe some rock solid evidence will from a rock solid source will appear and make clear, that the ultra allel is a corn allel. No problem. Otherwise, make clear that there is a possibility of it NOT being corn. And when speaking of logic, I think that people who accept it as a maybe hibird will not have any problem when it is corn. But the others that do care will not be happy if it is not corn. One direction doesn't hurt anyone, the other one does. It's you to decide which way is the more reputable.

 

[KJUN]

Wonna tell a computer science Ph.D. student about probabilities? .
...
Many heaving to deal with Hibirds in that lines or at least signs of em. How often did Lavender, Caramel etc. pop up suddenly all over the lines?

A PhD doesn't impress me personally since I know it doesn't make someone infallible. ...especially when the PhD is in a topic that has no relevance to the subject at hand. You're statements don't make much sense. For example, caramel, I believe, is from a SINGLE heterozygous cornsnake. No evidence of it ever turning up again has been found. You can't determine a valid statistic with any type of confidence ratios on that one case. So, yes: I will tell a student about probabilities. This random mutation might only turn up once in the history of cornsnakes, or it may be very popular. Any knewly discovered hets would like assume to be from Rich's line and NOT a new mutation. So, you are trying to prove something when you should know that analysis of the available data could be extremely biased. Not good "science" there.

Maybe we should discuss the probability of a single allel popping up in so many lines under different names like T+, Ultra and whatever. What are the probabilities, that Carols Rat Hibird also carries ultra by conincidence?

Sure, but don't ignore - like MOST people do - the fact that many of those earliest lines had no hybrid markers. None. Neither did their offspring. Today, people say they aren't any hybrid markers because they are MOSTLY cornsnakes. That statement isn't supported by the evidence given to use with creamsicle cornsnakes, but I'll let it slide for the moment except to say that people just don't know what hybrid markers ARE in cornsnakes any longer.

So, back to the original cornsnakes carrying the allele. They weren't crossed back top corns umpteen times, and they lacked the hybrid markers. That's can't be explained while assuming they are hybrids. Something ELSE must be going on.

I'm not using this to try and prove they are pure, but I think these data must be explained before people can claim that ALL of them are hybrids. I don't doubt in the least that MOST of them are hybrids, but some of the lines have looked pure from the beginning. I still do not deny that the origin of the ultramel allele is grey ratsnake, but it would have to predate the story we are discussing now. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the allele was produced spontaneously in cornsnakes OR if it is the result of a NATURAL hybrid with a later generation animal (a heterozygote) being captured and brought into a breeding program. This would be the result of a natural hybrid who knows how long back. If this IS the case, I doubt it will EVER be known! It is possible, and it would explain the original ones being hybrids, the fact that grey rats produce ultramels when bred to amel corns, and all other data available. So would the idea that it popped up spontaneously in cornsnakes at the same loci. Occam's Razor is a good guiding rule to pick which one is "most" likely.

KJ

 

[Menhir]

For example, caramel, I believe, is from a SINGLE heterozygous cornsnake.

Yes, and Motley popped up more often as well as Anery A, but noch Charcoal, Caramel, Lavender and so on. What I was trying to say is that the concidence of a spontanous mutation in so many lines all having some kind of hibird influence is very unlikely. Our common mutations are mostly found once or very seldom. Very few are found more often. So, if there is one that is found often - why is it so often found in (maybe) hibird lines?

So, yes: I will tell a student about probabilities.

You can do, but I think my argumentation still holds.

Not good "science" there.

Rich began the discussion about possibilities and probabilities. I justed wanted to show, that there are genes floating around that are not even popping up twice. And we talk about the possibility of an allel popping up often in many lines, often with an at least questionable pureness.

That statement isn't supported by the evidence given to use with creamsicle cornsnakes

Not valid, because the Hibird look is a goal of the Creamsicle, not a negative aspect. Therefore people will always try to keep these markers.

I'm not using this to try and prove they are pure, but I think these data must be explained before people can claim that ALL of them are hybrids. I don't doubt in the least that MOST of them are hybrids, but some of the lines have looked pure from the beginning.

I don't care of the there was a ratsnake 10 generations ago in that line, because that is a risk one can hardly eliminate. I wonder about the heritage of that allel that is used as a special breeding effort. If that one is from the ratsnake, I would not consider any Ultramel a cornsnake - no matter how many generations of corns one has used. How can a mutation that happened in a different species ever become a corn snake?!?
Would you consider a snake with wings created by Dr. Frankenstein a true snake just by pairing it a few times to other snakes only? (I did not want to use the Alien example, but as u said, I'm may not think scientifically enough.)

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the allele was produced spontaneously in cornsnakes OR if it is the result of a NATURAL hybrid with a later generation animal (a heterozygote) being captured and brought into a breeding program. This would be the result of a natural hybrid who knows how long back. If this IS the case, I doubt it will EVER be known! It is possible, and it would explain the original ones being hybrids, the fact that grey rats produce ultramels when bred to amel corns, and all other data available.

Going back to science:
Scenario 1
- Spontanous Corn Snake Mutation in many lines that by coincidence acts just like an allel in ratsnakes

Scenario 2
- Ratsnake allel is brought into corn snake lines

I still wonder how we can have a serious discussion about the story of the pure corn snakes with mutations just acting like rat snake allels, while by coincodence these pure corn snakes were bred into hibird lines.
Hence, that's all from me talking about probabilities.

Greetings

 

[KJUN]

What I was trying to say is that the concidence of a spontanous mutation in so many lines all having some kind of hibird influence is very unlikely.

That would be correct if all of the original lines had at least SOME of the common hybrid markers. Many of the original lines did NOT. ...and those date to before the ultramels could have possibly been 97.5+% cornsnakes. Those lines are what make me strongly doubt that all of the lines are hybrids. I don't say this proves that some lines are pure, but it is a wrench in the idea that ALL lines are hybrids.

Not valid, because the Hibird look is a goal of the Creamsicle, not a negative aspect. Therefore people will always try to keep these markers.

Ahhhh, but not all creamsicles were breed for a hybrid look, so your assumptions fall apart. I've heard that the Love's used creamsiicles to produce their reverse Okeetee cornsnakes, but I will not use that line as proof because I haven't heard it via their words myself. However, it is well documented that they used creamsicles to produce their line of Candycane cornsnakes...decades ago. Those were bred to Miami phase corns, etc., to get red and white looking "cornsnakes" - not the "hybrid" look of creamsicles. Those lines STILL to this day show lots of hybrid markers. If the hybrid markers are so hard to remove when you breed two closely related species together, it is hard for me to accept that the mnarkers disappear so quickly with more unrelated species.

Again, I have seen many ultramels that appear to by hybrids. I've never denied that. I don't know. ...and it disgusts me because it means that thousands of amels are getting produced with that hybrid blood in it that have few to no markers - and are being sold under the guise of pure cornsnakes. The bad part about this is that it makes our concern academic. If ultramels ARE hybrids (assume they are), then the entire captive cornsnake population is tainted (or will be in a couple more generations). It is silly for someone to buy any new corn with new blood in it that might be from an amel produced by an ultramel and refuse to have ultramels because they are hybrids. I hate hybrids, but since many ultramels are hybrids, I DID have to conclude that ANY new corn I acquire might be a hybrid. There is nothing you can do about it.

It's horrible. It is what my nightmares were made of. It is also too late to do anything about it. Too many people didn't care back before it was too late. This is true whether all ultramels are hybrids or whether only a few of them are hybrids.

Oh, yeah: I wasn't saying that the allele popped up in hybrids and corns separately. I believe that is is possible that the original het for ultra cornsnake was bred to pure corns (pure line) and grey rats (hybrid line), but this doesn't prove anything about the ORIGIN of the allele. I don't claim that it does.

How can a mutation that happened in a different species ever become a corn snake?!?

I recognize a difference between natural hybridization (rare, unavoidable, and does happen some) and man-made hybrids. Man-made hybrids = not good. Wild hybrids in PAST generations (not a current captured F1) = nothing you can do about, and natural selection HAS had its hand in the process. There are documented cases of current species existing only because of past hybridization between two unique parent species.

 

[Rich Z]

The whole argumentation gets childish and I'm not going to keep the discussion going that way.

Well that's a shame, really. But providing arguments without facts and details pretty much goes along the same lines, I think.....

Wonna tell a computer science Ph.D. student about probabilities? Maybe we should discuss the probability of a single allel popping up in so many lines under different names like T+, Ultra and whatever. Many heaving to deal with Hibirds in that lines or at least signs of em. How often did Lavender, Caramel etc. pop up suddenly all over the lines? What are the probabilities, that Carols Rat Hibird also carries ultra by conincidence?

Sure! Being a student doesn't make anyone an expert nor perfect. Being a student means you are still learning. And trust me, I have had teachers who didn't have a clue about some of the things they were trying to teach.

As for the probability of that Ultra allele showing up under different names, I would say there is a VERY STRONG probability of that happening. How long has the Ultra gene been out there? For the greater part of it's existence it was thought to simply be Hypomelanism. I bought my original Ultras as young adults from Mike Falcon back in 1995 I believe. So assuming I didn't get the very first pair he produced, he was probably producing them for several years prior to that date. Certainly he did not keep all of those offspring, including heterozygous animals from those breedings. Quite likely there was a single point source for that gene and from offspring being sold over the years carrying that gene, it could have been spread to an enormous number of other breeders. Once it was bred to anything else containing Amelanism, something different would have resulted (which we now call Ultramel) but they would have applied their own terms to these different looking animals.

The probability that this happened this way is excellent, I would say.

Further, from what I understand, Andy Barr was involved in this project in some way (the actual relationship between Mike Falcon, Andy Barr, and Mike Shiver is not exactly clear to me, unfortunately) and at some point along the line gray rat snakes were brought into the equation. From what I recall from conversations with Mike Falcon, he said that he thought the original wild caught animal that "Ultra" came from was a naturally occuring hybrid between a corn snake and a gray rat snake because of it's odd appearance (color? pattern?), but later reversed his thinking on that. So if this one wild caught animal was the single point source of the Ultra gene, it certainly appears that not only did it get transmitted into corn snakes, but also into gray rat snakes via Andy Barr. As to what stock Mike Shiver was working with, that is anyone's guess.

While I am thinking of it though, you mentioned vague hints and suspicions about "markers" for hybrids. But you never mentioned specifically what these markers may be. Would you mind telling us what these markers are that you are seeing? And while you are at it, please relate how the differences in other lines of corn snakes that have various diversions in color, pattern, structure and actions are different in comparison.


Lavender got spread far and wide through a single chance selling of heterozygous animals to John Albrecht from my original source animal, which he then sold to various other people. Also, I sold off hets and possible hets for years as well, some before I even realized the Lavender gene existed. The original locality where I captured the animal carrying this gene is now a strip mall along route 41, so I suspect whatever wild population that might have existed carrying this gene may no longer exist.

As for Caramel, heck, I have no idea why there isn't an area that is knee deep in them, much as with the Anerythristics. I would think that gene would be a very positive survival trait in the wild, but to date have not heard of anyone catching one in the wild. At this late date, any that would come up would have to be suspect of being releases of captive animals carrying that original gene, I am afraid.

Maybe my experiences over the last years erased the god status you once had in my mind - but when reading this, I think I remember why I erased.

LOL! Since I never solicited such status from you, nor gained anything because of it, I can't see where I lost anything with your change of opinion. But it is interesting to note that your gods must agree with your opinions in order to hold that status with you.

You may have any right you want to. I was just stating, that vague hints and suspicions are enough for me to inform my customers about possible "problems". I learned this from the guys dealing with locality animals and I think that this is the most honest way to deal with such animals. And I feel I am within my right to say this, isn't it?

Sure, you can say anything you want. It's just that I am no more obligated to accept your opinion then you are obligated to accept mine. Anyone can come to any conclusion they want to based on any criteria they choose to hold as relevant. Back to the original topic of this thread, I head that another large breeder of cornsnakes has publicly commented that he believes the 'C' Anerythristic is a hybrid simply because it looks similar to other hybrids he himself has created. So does that make a Butter Stripe corn a hybrid because it looks somewhat similar to a yellow rat snake? At some stages of development a black rat snake can look VERY similar to an Anerythristic corn. Does that make Anerythristics a hybrid based gene as well?

I guess what I want to know is what is the criteria that people are using for their opinions? What exactly are these "vague hints and suspicions"?

As said - turn it around, maybe some rock solid evidence will from a rock solid source will appear and make clear, that the ultra allel is a corn allel. No problem. Otherwise, make clear that there is a possibility of it NOT being corn. And when speaking of logic, I think that people who accept it as a maybe hibird will not have any problem when it is corn. But the others that do care will not be happy if it is not corn. One direction doesn't hurt anyone, the other one does. It's you to decide which way is the more reputable.

But you can say that about EVERY corn on the planet. NO ONE can say with any absolute certainty that their animals do not have other species genetic influences in them. My comments along that line are always "as best as I can determine or have knowledge of", and that's the best that anyone can do. I would like to think that my corns are pure, but I have to be realistic. I wasn't around when the very first corn snake got created on this earth. Some of the sources I got mine from are unknowns beyond what I could see with my own eyes. Going by "vague hints and suspicions" I think I could argue well that just about any line of corn snake MUST be a hybrid because it looks vaguely different from some perfect classic example (whatever that may be).

So as far as this goes, yes, it may turn out that Ultra did originate from some hybridization 15 years or so ago. Yes, maybe some corn snake down in the Florida keys mated with a mangrove water snake and that union generated the 'C' anerythrism gene. Maybe Blood Reds are really the results of breeding corn snakes with everglades rat snakes. Maybe Sunkisseds are from breeding Florida kings to corns. Maybe Caramel corns are from some corn snakes romantic interest with a cow plop. Maybe all gray rat snakes in the wild are Ultras. Some of these are unknowable simply because the source of the information just does not exist. Others may be the result of purposeful intent. Some may be able to be determine accurately in the future, but I doubt any of them will ever be black and white.

Unfortunately that is just the nature of the beast with these critters. Anyone not willing to accept this probably should just go on to another line of interest. And I do not believe this is limited only to corn snakes. Because I seriously doubt it will ever be resolved, nor will it ever get any better. It is just what it is, and we have to accept it or leave it.

IMHO, of course.

ps: And just for the record, my stance is that if anyone asks me if my corn snakes are "pure", my answer is:

As best I have been able to determine, and to the best of my knowledge. If that is not good enough for you, and you believe someone else has an answer more to your liking, then that is a choice you have to make.

 

[El Jefe]

...and it disgusts me because it means that thousands of amels are getting produced with that hybrid blood in it that have few to no markers - and are being sold under the guise of pure cornsnakes.

If the amels are indeed hybrids but have few to no markers, then what difference might it make down the road? Certainly, if there are no markers in the parents there is a good possibility there will be no markers in the offspring.

For the record I do not sell hybrids unmarked whether that be creamsicles, jungle corns or even amels from the ultra lines. I'm not saying ultra line is hybrid, I am saying that the amels I sell from ultramel clutches have a label that the parents were ultramels.

Basically, I am just curious what the big deal would be if you cannot tell the difference.