Info for would be corn breeders

[Jessicat]

Jen, thanks for creating this thread, I think it's great, and that it should be stickied!

It sometimes pains me to see new comers talking about their up coming breeding plans. I think that anyone who is consitering breeding corns should at least have raised one snake into adult hood before they decide whether or not they want to create more corn snakes. It seems as though people buy a corn snake or two, and within the first month of owning one have already decided that they are going to end up being the next big thing. Two months in to owning a corn, you don't even know if you really like it yet! It's not like corns are hard to raise, but going from 1 to 10 or 20 plus before you've even had the experience of caring for an adult can be dangerous. Around the time the novelty wears off, realizing you own a room full of adult corn snakes that all need to be cared for can be daunting. It seems as though part of the reason collections grow so fast, is because it is easy to get caught up in preparing for "future breeding plans".

Anyway, you've made some great points, Jen. I have always been curious about breeding, but have never felt "ready" to take on the responsibility. It's nice to be able to see in plain honest writing what some of the responsibility is.

What is is about this hobby that pulls us in, that makes us all want to be the next big name with the coolest new morph?

I think part of it has to do with the way we sell our corns. To make them more valuable, we advertize them along with their hets. Some breeders also only sell pairs. Both of these tactics may end up creating higher revenue for the breeder right away, but in the long run, it might not be worth it.

I am even guilty of it myself, when I was at your table talking to customers, an interested girl was looking at a few of your males, trying to evaluate which she liked the best, and I was trying to sell her on the Granite, because he would have gone perfectly with her Anery het Bloodred female. Would I get annoyed if I saw the same person post later on this forum about their big breeding plans? Probably.. :noevil:

I can't even imagine a corn snake world where we didn't offer genetic information on hatchlings. I do think though that because hets and genetics are such a huge part of selling tactics, and just basic information that every owner expects to have about their snakes, many more people are turned onto breeding than may have been otherwise.

Anyway, like I said before, great post, I really enjoyed reading this, and it was definitely food for thought! I want to plus rep you for it, but I don't know if that really means anything anymore.. :cheers:

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

This thread is fantastic, enjoyable, and informative reading. As a strictly pet owner, getting a view or several into the breeding world's reasons and methods is very helpful. I totally agree that people shouldn't rush into breeding, and should only do it for the right reasons when they finally do. And I also think that everyone should think about what happens to all the unwanted normals and het-only corns that aren't as desirable. What do you do with them? Do they end up being wholesaled to pet stores for the kid down the street, or as feeders for others' kingsnakes, etc.? If you're fine with that, great. If, however, you think of each snake as an individual with a life that it values and a long future (hopefully) ahead of it, I'd think you would want to really think before you breed. And that doesn't even count the parent snakes, who are the ones doing the "work" of breeding and egg laying; or all of the time, heart, money and stress you put into breeding these amazing creatures--or the heartbreak that you sometimes get from it after all is said and done.

I kind of like having my "just pets" to play with or look at. With about 20-ish snakes in the house of varying species, every single one of them is special to me. I think that's a good thing . Will I breed someday? Maybe? Who knows? I'm in no hurry, and I sure appreciate every single one of you from whom I've purchased my pets. Those of you who do it right and for the right reasons make people like me VERY happy. Thank you .

 

[K. Rene]

I hope I wasn't involved with the sparking of this thread Jen It is my first year attempting breeding and I don't take that lightly at all. I realize the risks and I am not expecting anything. I also don't expect to make a profit, I just hope to share my knowledge and passion with others. I think being the leader of the Reptile 4-H club will help me sell some babies if my girls do produce fertile eggs and they survive to hatch. I will be willing to get certified to ship if I end up with more babies than I can sell in this area. I also have the mice on the way to feed them. I defiantly don't consider myself a "breeding crazed newbie", but I recognize that I have a lot to learn, and I am very thankful that I have wonderful breeders like Jen, Wendy and Nancy in my own state and very close by to contact with questions. I may not have the most popular morph to sell and I certianly don't want to be the next big breeder, I don't have the time or facility to do that. But I love my little colony I have and all I want for any babies I produce is to be healthy and well established before I find them a new home. Yes, I am looking forward to the experience of hatching eggs, but that excitement doesn't blind me from seeing the possible outcomes. Only time will tell I guess if I made the right decision.

 

[Outcast]

I know that even though I value life, even more now than I did before my last deployment to Afghanistan, I will not be selling kinked babies, non/trouble feeders will be sold only to close friends/family or donated to classrooms only after they are able to eat without coaxing and doing so on a regular basis, with a contract signed by me and the new owner that I will take back the snake and do what I can to help it if anything were to arise. I will also not be breeding kinked snakes or non/trouble feeders. Though it will be quite a while before I start breeding, I can wait for a while before I start breeding. I want to be as prepared as I can... even though I want to breed next season, I probably will not...

 

[hippiebrian]

This is a great thread! Right now there seem to be a lot of dedicated breeders out there who treat their animals with respect and love, and yes, sometimes that does mean euthanizing for the betterment of the animals and any that may have been produced by them.

Me, I'm a pet owner, or maybe a better definition would be keeper. I have no desire to breed ever because I know I wouldn't have the time and that would just be cruel to the animals! Really, reading this forum and books (I just got Kathy and Bill Love's book, yay!) I have no idea how anyone with another job finds the time, but am grateful they do and are able to produce the gentile loveable snakes which corns have become! Not to mention taking pressure off of the wild populations!

While reading this what occurred to me was that I really hope that this hobby never gets to be like the "puppy mills" of the 90's and early 2000's. Actually, some still exist to my disgust, but most were shut down after they were "outed".

If anyone is thinking of breeding, please consider why. For me, once I gain enough experience keeping Lana and feel I'm ready to move on with the hobby again, I'll just get another species. Those Honduran Milks look promising...maybe later this year or next. Getting another species or just another corn to keep could just be all you need to keep your interest piqued, and could just keep a lot of unhappy individuals from being introduced!

My two cents...sorry for ranting.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

K. Rene, The thread was not directed at you Kelsie. I actually think you are going about it in just the right way, you are starting out small to see if you like it and you have a plan for the babies in place.
I actually thought about making it a "pros and cons" of breeding but I felt that so many people already seem to know there are pros (or they wouldn't want to do it) that maybe it would be better to just point out the down side.

I will repeat, I don't think anybody should be told not to breed corns just because they are new. Just that if you are doing it go into it with your eyes open and know what it's really like. If I thought new people shouldn't breed at all that would kind of make me a hypocrite, I was new when I did it the first time too.
Sorry if anyone else thinks this is about them also... it was kind of just something to bring a reality check to the Joe Schmoes
Anyway thanks to everyone for the replies! Keep em coming...

 

[HazAnga]

I agree with most of this tread... but disagree with some too.
How can someone be told not to do something because their new. That shouldn't be the reason to just not breed Corns, or snakes in general. You have to start somewhere, yes you should start out small and then go bigger, how do you learn when your told not to do it. When I first got my car (first) car I got pulled over for a pretty much made up ticket. I made a left hand turn on a yellow light (which was when it was safe for me to turn) and I squawked my tired a little (because it's a Standard) and those of you who know driving a standard the first week in a fairly busy city can be a little tense/stressful.
He pulled me over and ended up giving me a ticket for "Disobey lane light" I have no Idea where the hell he dug that up but ohh well. My point is that I told him I was new at driving Standard, and you know what he told me. That I shouldn't be driving Standard then.! I was pissed after he said that...

But back to the Snake world... yes people that are trying to make money off of it are probably going to be disappointed or let down. But what about the people who are wanting to breed for the enjoyment... why are you trying to make breeding sound like a bad chore that you don't want to do... maybe some people do enjoy it. spending an hour or more a day with my snakes after work is relaxing. I'm not running around doing things, i have everything within arm's or stretched arm's reach.
I'm on my second year of having my Checkered Garter snakes breed and it is and can be a lot of work trying to get everyone to eat and everything. And next year I do plan on breeding my Okeetee's. I don't care if I end up selling them all I want to try it and plan on doing so the year after as well too. I don't care about the work that goes into it or money... I would like to see if I can git some money out of it but I'm not going to be depressed if I don't. I just now sold the last of the Garters from last years bunch... That's 7-8 months later... and lots of food been eaten.
But I'm going to stop my rant and let the next person go.

 

[HazAnga]

Ohh one last thing. Why tell them all the reasons not to do it... when clearly yes some people don't listen... then tell them all the information they will need to get the better success rate and everything. So then you can feel good that you've done the best YOU can do.

 

[Nanci]

Ohh one last thing. Why tell them all the reasons not to do it... when clearly yes some people don't listen... then tell them all the information they will need to get the better success rate and everything. So then you can feel good that you've done the best YOU can do.

They always know better. They always believe the expert at the local petshop that tells them it's okay to cohab, keep your snakes on sand, feed live, whatever. I feel like there is so much cumulative knowledge here, and new people are so adverse to taking advantage of it, because Joe Blow at Snake World knows more than "us." I don't feel like I tell people not to breed, but I have, sometimes when I felt like wasting my breath, told them of the many, many possible things that can and will go wrong. No one cares. It won't happen to them.

 

[bitsy]

How can someone be told not to do something because their new.

If you read the thread immediately above the one in which you said this, you'll see that's exactly what is NOT being suggested.

There are good reasons why SOME new keepers shouldn't breed (outlined by Nanci). But by the same token there are good reasons why some new keepers will be absolutely fine to breed. And also good reasons why some experienced breeders should stop (which is what I've done).

There's no proscription going on here. Everyone knows the upsides of breeding - the excitement of hatching, the nurturing of little ones until they go to new homes, the potential for an unexpected morph to pop out of an egg... We're just presenting a range of the "downsides" to balance this, so that anyone who chooses to breed can go in with their eyes open to potential pitfalls and factor them into a decision on how or whether to go ahead.

 

[Jessicat]

They always know better. They always believe the expert at the local petshop that tells them it's okay to cohab, keep your snakes on sand, feed live, whatever.

Kind of off topic from the original subject, but this always frustrates me to no end as well. A friend of mine bought a King Snake this past summer and called me to let me know. I immediately wanted to know all of the details of how he had it set up, and of course... some basic husbandry was off.

The main problem was that he adamantly did NOT want to give the snake a hide. The guy who'd sold him the snake told him that snakes who don't have hides get used to humans and snakes who can just hide all day are aggressive.

On the first day my friend had his snake it bit him and one of his roommates. After I FINALLY convinced him to give the snake a hide, it calmed down a lot, and no longer lived up to its name, "Bitey".

The main point that finally got my friend to veer from the bad advice the shop keeper gave him was, "well, if the snake has been living without a hide for as long as it has been in the pet shop and it is aggressive now, obviously that method is NOT working."

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I think people do this in all aspects of life. If the advice they get is what they want to hear, they will listen to it. If it's different from what they expected/ wanted to hear, well.. it's just easier to turn a blind's eye sometimes than to push the ego down and admit that "no, I don't know everything there is to know about this subject"..

 

[Dreamsnake]

I'd like to try breeding in three or four years. First I need to get the snakes I want to breed and grow them up. I may decide otherwise after my snakes grow up and I'm not satisfied with their growth rate, muscle tone, or some other reason. I'm sure by that time the target morph I'd like to achieve will be established and I may just can the breeding plans and get myself the snake I want. It is nice to have options in life.

 

[airenlow]

One of my '10 hatchlings went to a friend who works at a zoo. Her friend, who runs the reptile house there, told her not to give a corn a water bowl...that they will only drink droplets of water, if misted regularly. I refused to sell her a corn until she agreed to use a water bowl.

Be very careful who you take advice from...

 

[rich333]

Money??? Did someone say "You can make money by breeding corns?" Hmm... Heck I thought we were all doing this BECAUSE WE LOVE THE ANIMAL. I can't speak for anyone else..but "making Money" was the last thing on the list as to why I wanted to begin breeding these AWESOME creatures. I have a day job..and a good one... . But I can't get through the day at this day job..without thinking...what would i get if i crossed this with that and that with this..etc. my goal is to own roughly 10-15 adult corns...with VERY specific genes...to work toward creating something that the world has yet to see. if that creation nets me a bit of cash..it's all good...the snakes will get the money...IE food,housing,heating etc. Can't people just be happy with working with one of god's creatures...and enjoy the mystery of thier everyday lives...and then the genetic side of things...WHOA!!! there isn't enough space on the Internet to cover the facinating world of genetics.....
All this said....
I have read every post in this thread...and consider myself "warned".
I have yet to breed my corns. i have a female that is just barely in the acceptable weight range(310grams). after talking to several people on here..one of which..was Kathy Love..(Thanks for the excellent advice kathy) I've decided to give her another year of growth, and get her in shape. kathy's advice was basically..."she'd probably be ok...BUT...if you have ANY emotional attachment to this animal...dont do it...it's better to wait." As I sat there,Thrilled that Kathy responded to me, reading this...i thought..How can I or anyone NOT have an emotional attachment to the animals that we hold,feed,water,administer medicine to..make sure they are warm enough,and wipe thier 'lil butts if need be.....Sounds like i'm raising my own kids.....and in effect...I am. money....wasnt even a thought.

 

[wax32]

Great thread! I know I haven't made any money in my few years of breeding corns. They literally eat all my profits!

But, it's a fun hobby.

 

[desertanimal]

I started thinking about breeding right away because I wanted particular morphs for myself that I didn't want to buy outright.

I bred my first clutch of normals as a way to test out two of my animals for common hets and as practice for later clutches where I'd actually want to keep a few hatchlings.

I've always just sold off my unwanted hatchlings for very low prices on CL, sometimes on here, and sometimes have given them away. (That said, this time around, I haven't sold even half of the single clutch I hatched last July! I've still got 7 hatchlings I'd like to sell! But, it's no big deal, really, because it's just half a clutch, and that's exactly why I don't breed much each year, so I can handle it if I need to keep them for a while.)

I certainly never had any illusions of making money on the process. If someone wants to breed right out of the gates for that reason, that's probably just stupid because it's very unlikely to happen.

But I think all the other reasons to breed--for fun, to "roll your own," etc.,--are perfectly fine reasons for newbies to want to rush into breeding. I'm glad I did. It turns out, that if breeding, picking a hold-back or two, growing them up, and doing it all again weren't a part of this hobby for me and I had all the snakes only as pets, I'd be completely bored with it.

That's not to say it always goes well and never is stressful. But I still prefer it, because I'm not bored with it.

 

[Dreamsnake]

"Roll your own." That's a good expression. I admit that I picked my snow for his high pink coloration and that I was getting an amel and anery rolled together, a good base since I can get a lot of combos out of him.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I started thinking about breeding right away because I wanted particular morphs for myself that I didn't want to buy outright.

I bred my first clutch of normals as a way to test out two of my animals for common hets and as practice for later clutches where I'd actually want to keep a few hatchlings.

I've always just sold off my unwanted hatchlings for very low prices on CL, sometimes on here, and sometimes have given them away. (That said, this time around, I haven't sold even half of the single clutch I hatched last July! I've still got 7 hatchlings I'd like to sell! But, it's no big deal, really, because it's just half a clutch, and that's exactly why I don't breed much each year, so I can handle it if I need to keep them for a while.)

I certainly never had any illusions of making money on the process. If someone wants to breed right out of the gates for that reason, that's probably just stupid because it's very unlikely to happen.

But I think all the other reasons to breed--for fun, to "roll your own," etc.,--are perfectly fine reasons for newbies to want to rush into breeding. I'm glad I did. It turns out, that if breeding, picking a hold-back or two, growing them up, and doing it all again weren't a part of this hobby for me and I had all the snakes only as pets, I'd be completely bored with it.

That's not to say it always goes well and never is stressful. But I still prefer it, because I'm not bored with it.

Agreed! While I felt a need to make post like this, even if it probably won't help much as far as talking sense into people who think they can make money, I wasn't trying to make it sound like breeding corns is this horrible thing nobody should ever try. Just to show people there is a side of it that is hard work and that hatchlngs don't go flying off the rack as eager corn buyers line up to buy. That it makes sense to start small and see how it goes from there.
I don't do craigslist, I guess it would be OK for a one time deal- to sell one or a couple snakes on there one time but I won't do it myself. I like to use here, kingsnake.com, faunaclassified and sell at shows where snakes will be more likely to go to someone that understands their husbandry. I kind of want my snakes to go to someone that is into the snakes and not end up as some neglected pet a kid outgrows... And even if nobody really seems to care, animal sales ARE against the craigslist TOS. "Rehoming" usually means selling in the pet section though, it seems!

 

[Snakehead]

I've been breeding corns since 1999. To date, one season has turned a profit. But I continue to do it because I enjoy it. Though few projects have turned out like I expected, the unexpected is often rewarding in and of itself.

One aspect of breeding that needs to be considered by anyone breeding reptiles is culling. It is very difficult to produce corn snakes for monetary gain as it is, but nearly impossible when sub-par animals are summarily killed or fed off upon hatching. We can not as conscientious breeders produce and sell animals with no regard to captive lineages. The more common the morph or species, the more strict our standards should be on what is allowed to survive/ potentially produce offspring. I have a pair of striped albino cal kings that I have culled 100% of the hatchlings for the last two years, simply for nasty attitudes. Over the years, I culled nearly 100% of grayband kings I produced for not eating mice, and finally quit breeding the species. If they don't merit keeping in my collection, a long hard look has to be cast on whether they should be sold to potentially have their genes passed at all. I had to give up on a chameleon message board, because the overwhelming sentiment was "it is our responsibility to keep them ALL alive since we brought them into this world." I will dig up and post links to some of the deformed animals that people were working with. I think most would agree they should have never left the incubator. It is always unpleasant for me to take the life of an animal, and even after thousands of mice, I find killing them distasteful. But as breeders, it is something we really must do.

Dude I have to say this, and forgive me if it sounds too blunt. Maybe you should stop breeding? Cal Kings are supposed to have attitudes! That's their nature and it's part of their appeal really. They are spunky and full of vigor and yes they will try to eat your hand, lol! Graybanded Kings are Lizard eaters! They have to be tricked and coerced into taking pink mice, but it can be done with some patience. Dude you are performing genocide on your animals for behaving the way they should!

 

[Susan]

Dude I have to say this, and forgive me if it sounds too blunt. Maybe you should stop breeding? Cal Kings are supposed to have attitudes! That's their nature and it's part of their appeal really. They are spunky and full of vigor and yes they will try to eat your hand, lol! Graybanded Kings are Lizard eaters! They have to be tricked and coerced into taking pink mice, but it can be done with some patience. Dude you are performing genocide on your animals for behaving the way they should!

First, it isn't "genocide" as he isn't killing off the entire species, just the hatchlings that do not fit his qualifications. It has just been bad luck that none in those particular clutches met his requirements.

If a breeder is selectively breeding for temperament and for food preference, culling those that don't fit those qualifications is what needs to be done. When first produced, bloodreds (I'm pretty sure it was the bloodreds, but may have been another morph) were known for being lizard eaters and refusing pinkies. It took years of selective breeding and outcrossing to produce hatchlings that would readily eat pinkies out of the egg.

I am sure there are many breeders of all snake species, that are selectively breeding for the above mentioned traits. I know I would prefer to keep those that were easier to handle and that ate pinkies right out of the egg.

And what about those hatchlings that won't eat anything offered? Is it wrong to cull them (euthanize, if you prefer) or would you rather let them suffer and starve to death? What about other deformities? Was it wrong to cull this hatchling?

"But there's a difference between physical deformities and behavior/temperament/food preference/etc." Look at it this way, if man didn't selectively breed for ALL desirable qualities, we wouldn't have ANY domestic animals. There would be no dogs as they would all still be wolves, horses would be wild, pigs would still be wild boar, cattle would still be wild, sheep, goats, fowl of all kinds, etc would all still be as their wild predecessors and we would still be hunter-gatherers.

No one is forcing you to cull anything you produce, but don't knock those that are trying to improve the cb specimens.