slitheringdead
Foggy
I understand what you're saying. No offense was intended. Yes, going forward i will definitely ask potential breeders about their practices.
-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
Info for would be corn breeders
- Thread starter ghosthousecorns
- Start date
I understand what you're saying. No offense was intended. Yes, going forward i will definitely ask potential breeders about their practices.
Candachan
Luna Serpentry
I'm not trivializing anything, and I don't think snakes have more of a right to live than the mice they eat. I don't rank animals by 'importance' of life, my feelings about culling and euthanasia are the same for all species.
Giving an animal a good life and a good death are respectful. Period. The only difference is the amount of guilt you feel about it. You think I am trivializing when I think you are anthropomorphizing.
Giving an animal a good life and a good death are respectful. Period. The only difference is the amount of guilt you feel about it. You think I am trivializing when I think you are anthropomorphizing.
slitheringdead
Foggy
I believe there needs to be a good reason when you decide to kill something. My list of good reasons clearly differs from yours.
Candachan
Luna Serpentry
I'd also like to add that I cull various animals on a regular basis as part of my work, and that I respect and love animals more than most people in the field. The fact that I care about these animals having a kind death, regardless of meaning, is why I am excellent in what I do. I am the very last person to trivialize culling.
I just relate back to the days I was breeding dogs. And people did the same thing with their puppies that we are talking about here. If they didn't like the puppy for what ever reason it was culled. I didn't always agree and never practiced it. If there was something wrong with mine (like coloring or something not related to quality of life) the price was lower and I had to have proof that spaying/nuetering had occured or I refunded the money and reclaimed the animal. Which then was spayed/nuetered and resold.
Which brings me to a question I wanted to confirm: I had read somewhere it was possible to sterilize a snake. Is this actually true? I have a feeling the cost is probably not effective just wondering. And kind of fits in this topic as an alternative.
Which brings me to a question I wanted to confirm: I had read somewhere it was possible to sterilize a snake. Is this actually true? I have a feeling the cost is probably not effective just wondering. And kind of fits in this topic as an alternative.
Candachan
Luna Serpentry
I am not aware of any way to neuter a snake, which is why culling for the betterment of aesthetics/temperament/health is one of the only ways to guarantee it. Surgical alterations on a snake don't have a very good history (see venomoids)
Sure, you can just sell off snakes that have bad color or temperament, but with the way animals in this hobby are often shifted between people so often, odds are that at some point someone is going to breed them. That's not bettering the 'breed' for domestic/pet uses and is not doing anything but contribute to the flooded market.
Sure, you can just sell off snakes that have bad color or temperament, but with the way animals in this hobby are often shifted between people so often, odds are that at some point someone is going to breed them. That's not bettering the 'breed' for domestic/pet uses and is not doing anything but contribute to the flooded market.
slitheringdead
Foggy
If a person chooses to breed a snake with bad colors and temperament, with the hope that 1 in 10 will fit their standards and then cull the other 9, then that person is being cruel. I would not recommend penalizing the snake for the potential that it may be bred by an irresponsible breeder. I realize that there is a "reality" to what is going on out there, but we all have choices. The scenario i outlined above may be ethically accepted in the business, but i would not want to be a part of that. Breeders need to exercise proper judgment and be responsible for their actions.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
And we need to be responsible for being careful what we produce and what we choose to breed. It's funny because quite the opposite I would be kinda more nervous about buying a snake from someone who is too softhearted and tries to save every hatchling. To be blunt I believe I will get a superior snake from someone who culls ruthlessly and is super selective with what they let out into the gene pool.
Candachan
Luna Serpentry
I'm not assuming that the breeder starts with already poor-quality animals, but if you have a snake with amazing color and a terrible temperament, you can cross with a snake with better temperament in an attempt to breed the bad temperament out. Ideally, only the nicest snakes should be bred, but there are cases where this is not feasable (new morphs, test breedings, etc) Even when breeding 'nice' snakes, I think culling animals that don't meet your standards for the animals you are trying to produce IS being responsible.
What about SG snakes? The hets are healthy, but they are culled. They are being 'penalized' because of the potential that they could be bred.
What about SG snakes? The hets are healthy, but they are culled. They are being 'penalized' because of the potential that they could be bred.
slitheringdead
Foggy
I guess at the end of the day, these snakes are being culled mainly because they don't have a preferential paint job, or maybe they don't start off docile and easy feeders right out of the shell. After all, they're not being culled after they've been allowed to grow and develop for a year right? I don't know... but anyway, if you're ok with that practice and consider it collateral damage in the pet trade, then that's fine. I would hope that a person chooses to minimize that damage when they can and not take the convenient way out.
slitheringdead
Foggy
To frame the topic a little differently, i can understand the culling method if these snakes were being bred to find the cure for cancer or something equally important. I just find it silly that they're being culled for not having a cool paint job or for behaving like snakes. Being a newbie, i guess i'm just naive about the business side of it. I thought that people would be more concerned about their *pet* snakes, especially after numerous people gloat about how cute and cuddly their snakes are and how much they love them. If that's the case, then how can they turn around and cull hatchlings so easily and quickly. I'm generalizing a bit there, but i think the scenario applies to some people.
I also understand that there's a competitive morph market out there, and most people would choose a cool sunkissed or bloodred over a normal, so breeders often need to make tough choices based on economics. I myself have an okeetee, which has been selectively bred, so apparently i'm a hyprocrite because who knows what my breeder did, but i won't make the same mistake again. We have to make wise choices both from the seller and buyer side.
I don't know enough about the stargazer gene, but if it's something that is detrimental to the snake or has potential to be detrimental to its offspring, then i think it's acceptable to cull it.
ceduke
Female Wiccan Heretic!!
Excellent thread Jen! I almost decided to try a pairing, but then spent some time researching and decided not to largely because of the saturated market.
Also, I would rather buy from someone who culls sub par animals than someone who tries to save every single hatchling. I feel like I'd have a better chance of picking up high quality animals. I see nothing wrong with humane culling, especially if the culled hatchlings are then fed off. (I have an indigo snake who would love to have baby corns/kings to nom!)
The mouse fancy has a similar approach to culling. Surplus males are often culled, and at times entire lines are culled (including adult animals) when health problems are discovered in said lines. It is always done humanely, and with the betterment of the species in mind.
Somewhat off topic, my sister has a totally docile, amazingly sweet Cal King, and I wish there were more like him in the world.
Also, I would rather buy from someone who culls sub par animals than someone who tries to save every single hatchling. I feel like I'd have a better chance of picking up high quality animals. I see nothing wrong with humane culling, especially if the culled hatchlings are then fed off. (I have an indigo snake who would love to have baby corns/kings to nom!)
The mouse fancy has a similar approach to culling. Surplus males are often culled, and at times entire lines are culled (including adult animals) when health problems are discovered in said lines. It is always done humanely, and with the betterment of the species in mind.
Somewhat off topic, my sister has a totally docile, amazingly sweet Cal King, and I wish there were more like him in the world.
Lunar Gecko
New member
This is a great post. I like to tell people one word of advice when people tell me they want to breed anything (tends to be geckos when people ask me but still applies). I say 'get a hatchling raise it for 6m then get your 2ed and make sure its under a year old. Raise them up to adults then once they are good and ready to breed consider it. Don't just jump into the deep end.' Thats my .02 anyways. I followed my own advice with corns though I kept them over ten years ago to. I got a 3x feed male in Oct and then just got my 2ed one about a week ago. 
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
OK...Man selectively bred these for what vital purpose and how is the creation of these any different than what we are doing with snakes?
We created these solely for our pleasure. They serve no other purpose, just like the breeding of snakes for their color...and their temperament. And if you think "culling" doesn't occur elsewhere in our society with other beloved pet species? Have you visited an animal shelter recently to see how many dogs and cats are "culled" on a daily basis? At least snake breeders have the courage and the decency to do their own dirty work and not just dump the excess or undesirables on the street or at these shelters for someone else to deal with.
And who is to say that in 500 years, snakes aren't serving a vital purpose for man by hunting rodent pests in their homes? We've only touched the tip of the iceberg with what we can select for in terms our snakes. Man didn't find a true dog in the wolf pack overnight. He chose the most docile and least aggressive one to keep and killed the rest as he didn't need any more dangerous animals to deal with.
Lunar Gecko
New member
Susan - best comment EVER. I 100% agree.
:laugh01: :cheers:
:laugh01: :cheers:
slitheringdead
Foggy
I stated this in my original post:
"The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. "
I already acknowledged that the pet trade is a self-gratifying business and solely for our pleasure, but i believe there is a more humane approach in doing it. No one is forcing you to breed snakes. If there are too many snakes in the market and you're having a hard time moving your stock, the answer is not to breed more snakes and kill the ones that are dark brown instead of light brown. Stop breeding snakes that you can't properly care for or properly sell/rehome. In regards to color/temperament... do i prefer pretty colors and a snake that is easy to tame? Of course. Would i be willing to kill 10 otherwise normal healthy snakes to simply get that 1 pretty snake? No. That's the difference in my approach. I would be more patient with the process, because ultimately, i gain satisfaction from keeping the actual species. The paint job is less important. That's why i only have one corn even though i find many morphs beautiful.
"The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. "
I already acknowledged that the pet trade is a self-gratifying business and solely for our pleasure, but i believe there is a more humane approach in doing it. No one is forcing you to breed snakes. If there are too many snakes in the market and you're having a hard time moving your stock, the answer is not to breed more snakes and kill the ones that are dark brown instead of light brown. Stop breeding snakes that you can't properly care for or properly sell/rehome. In regards to color/temperament... do i prefer pretty colors and a snake that is easy to tame? Of course. Would i be willing to kill 10 otherwise normal healthy snakes to simply get that 1 pretty snake? No. That's the difference in my approach. I would be more patient with the process, because ultimately, i gain satisfaction from keeping the actual species. The paint job is less important. That's why i only have one corn even though i find many morphs beautiful.
slitheringdead
Foggy
... and i thought i made it perfectly clear in my posts, but i want to make sure that people know that i'm not singling out snake breeders. My opinion is the same for any type of pet breeder out there.
Candachan
Luna Serpentry
What vital purpose does the creation of the Sphynx cat fullfill? The modern English Bulldog? Miniature horses? There are numerous breeds out there that were selectively bred for NOTHING but looks and to serve as companion/pet/display animals. Actually, very few domestic cats and dogs actually do the jobs they were originally bred to do. Culling does exist in those breeds, but not to a great extent because we have the ability to sterilize any animals that don't for the ideal of what people are trying to create and maintain.
Snakehead
Bite Me! It's ok
Wow I have been following this thread all night when ever I got a chance as I loaded and unloaded. I have to say I've been breeding for over 20 years on and off and I have never heard of anyone killing off perfectly healthy and normal snakes to reach the final solution. I was pretty creaped out by the first post. Yet what is freaking me out even more is the amount of people who support this, many of you Ladies too! I am all for selective breeding. I have argued many many times that I believe we can correct many problems such as puny babies, fertility, and yes even acceptence of pinkies over lizards. However it never crossed my mind to kill off all the snakes that didn't meet the target criteria. I am selectively breeding Gray bands right now for blue color, but I will sell off the ones that I don't want to keep in the project. I'll sell them cheaply if I have to. I just get a sickly feeling when I see innocent animals killed for no real good reason. Maybe it's my religious background I don't know? It's just not something I could do. Life is precious and if I bring an animal into the world then I have some responsibility for it's well being. Am I too old fashion? Another point I have to bring up is I believe there is a divide between Corn Snake people, and King Snake people! That's not meant to be a put down. I'm just making an observation. I'm pretty sure if this subject cam up on the King Snake Forum I hang out on, it would not be recieved well. I may be wrong who knows. Maybe I'll start the topic and just sit back and see what kind of response I get. It would be interesting to see. At least for me anyway. Slithering Dead I hear you brother but i don't think anyone else does bro! We're out numbered for sure. I really am shocked but that's ok. I am learning new things all the time. Even after 20 plus years.
hippiebrian
New member
In some ways I feel the same. It would be a hard decision for me to make, as I love the snakes. I couldn't cull them and don't have the time or space for 30-40 snakes that weren't "marketable". This is but one reason I'll never be a breeder.
That being said, I think it's a bit hypocritical for any snake owner to be claiming the respect for life arguement for breeders not culling. Is the snake's life more important than the mouse's life that is given to feed it? Really, if you can claim to have such high "respect for life" you wouldn't be able to stomach feeding your snake, or even keeping them. And I'm betting you're not vegan, although I could be wrong about that.
If you claim love for the snakes, like I do, than claim the love for snakes. However if you feed animals to your snakes and eat them yourself, to claim "respect for life" based on being religious and still do these things, well, that's just hypocritical and a poor arguement at best.
Sorry, just my 2 cents.