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Morphin' Distinction

Bloodred Dad!

Bloodred Dad!

Proud Parent
[F]I guess you should know that psychology is important to me and something that arouses my curiosity. I was wondering if anyone (especially those with multiple morphs) have realized any personality differences by morph. Someone mentioned an example of different personalities for different dog breeds on another thread, but I wonder if snakes are as complex. Do you think personality is influenced by morph or is it all environment or is each individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed. It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns. It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

Has anyone, in particular, say had a particular morph that seemed to act a certian way no matter who owned it? Or a more aggressive or more active morph? I'm curious to find out what your experience tells you...[/FONT]
 
It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed.
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I'd say that was true 10 years ago, but not any more now the bloodlines have been beefed up.

It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns.
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Is it? Never heard that before.


I think genetics plays a large part in morph "characteristics" when they first emerge, as new morphs are usually derived from a limited gene pool. Howver as generations progress, bloodlines become more diverse and undesirable traits are gradually bred out.
 
> Do you think personality is influenced by (A) morph or is it all (B) environment or is each (C) individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I believe, from above, that C is the most important and A is the least important. You left out D - genetics. That, I believe has the most importance in most cases, but can be overshadowed occasionally by C. B can be the most important if the snake is treated very, very poorly, but I'd sayt that was too rare to count.

> I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed.

This is genetics - and not personality. It isn't their personality to want lizards any more than it is yours to be unable to digest cellulose. Besides, that was due to the founding source for bloodreds and not the morph itself. NOW, lots of bloodreds eat well out of the egg. In other words, this was due to D.

> It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns.

When people personify, it is hard to argue with them. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "timid" in a snake, but my Okeetee hatchlings have never been anything I would call timid. FAR from it. Good feeders that aren't scared of nothing. That goes for all of the line I have worked with for many, many years. Sounds like someone had ONE timid snake and started this rumor based on an individiual - which would be C. :)

> It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

No doubt amout it. Aggressive lines produce aggressive snakes. Duh. Any breeder with any experience can tell you that....lol.

> Has anyone, in particular, say had a particular morph that seemed to act a certian way no matter who owned it? Or a more aggressive or more active morph? I'm curious to find out what your experience tells you...

The only thing that comes to mind as acting REALLY different are sunkissed corns. They are mean as hell. Now, lots of mutations SEEM more docile than lots of F1 "normals." This just from selective breeding, I believe. If you have 10 babies that all eat well. If they look pretty much the same. Are you going to keep the 8 that attack you every time you open the cage, or will you keep the pair that are docile? Do that a few generations, and docility - as long as they feed - are traits selected for in captivity.

KJ
 
I can't back this up with lots of data, but I have always felt that lavenders are sickly or less hardy.

I have 4 striped ghosts that are much more aggressive feeders than any of my other corns. They strike the prey hard and constrict with several loops. I love to feed them. Is that genetic? I don't know.
 
Good Post KJ! I second that.

Like people, its a combination of things, some influenceing more than others. I have heard that ambers are very sweet, then I got one. She is now someone elses pet. She was evil - but just to me. She was fine with everyone else, but sought me out for destruction. Seriously. I still wouldn't label her as "sweet" though.
 
I have always felt that lavenders are sickly or less hardy.
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Could that be because they're fairly new on the scene and just starting to be "outcrossed" with other morph combos? Laves must be where Bloodreds were ten years ago - just starting to become widely available. It'll be interesting to see where we end up with them in another ten years.

As for snake "psychology", I don't believe they have one in the human sense. They work on instincts:
- Am I safe?
- Am I the right temperature?
- Am I hungry?
- Am I thirsty?
- Do I have something to mate with?
 
That makes so much sense. My Bloodred is a great eater so it makes even more sense that it's because the bloodlines evolve over time. I was just curious because I wasn't really sure and wanted to get someone more experienced imput.
 
I would buy a lavender female who is het for bloodred.

For your first generation you would get half bloodreds, and half normals het for lavender and bloodred.

Then you could either breed the resulting bloodred het lavender babies and get:

3/4 Bloodred (66% poss. het. Lavender)
1/4 Bloodred, Lavender

or breed the normal babies and get:

9/16 Normal(66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Lavender)
3/16 Bloodred (66% poss. het. Lavender)
3/16 Lavender (66% poss. het. Bloodred)
1/16 Bloodred, Lavender

Or both!
 
The OP poses an interesting question. I agree with KJUN that genetics must be considered, but the topic thus far doesn't go far enough. Yes, of course, pattern and color (morph) are essentially determined genetically. There are likely other undetermined environmental influences, such as nutrient availability or developmental temperatures, that affect the phenotype in ways we don't see or understand.

The reproductive choices of captive-bred animals are made by their human keepers. Sometimes we breed for color, sometimes for size, sometimes for vitality, sometimes for docility, sometimes for something else. Offspring demonstrate or carry a variety of visible traits, as well as traits invisible to us that still affect behavior, immune resistance, and other things.

I don't know how many corn snakes there currently are in captivity, but I'm willing to bet that they all share significant genetic similarities. I know, there are still wild-caught specimens being introduced into the breeding population who bring new genetic diversity. Producing recessive morphs initially requires breeding closely related animals who share the genes for the desired trait. They also share genes for other traits, some of which are invisible, some of which are undesirable. As stated previously, that's why some less-desirable traits in "new" morphs improve once there are more breeding animals available.

The original question seems to me to consider morphs on the same level of differentiation as dog breeds. I'm new to corn snakes, but I'm not new to genetics. That can't possibly be the case. Many lines/types/breeds of dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds or thousands of years. Those countless generations have permitted humans to refine desired traits and to differentiate types far more than has been possible in the relatively short time involved in breeding herps. Conscientious breeders of any animal try to eliminate problems and promulgate desired traits.

So, yes, there are behavioral differences. I'd love to see some scholarly data on behavior in various lines. Does anybody know if such studies exist?
 
Weird- I must have meant to post that somewhere else. In case anyone thought I was going crazy.
 
:rofl: Lol, Nanci. I was wondering if maybe I was completely missing the connection.

Bitsy, I didn't mean to cite any particular differences. My statement that "there are behavioral differences" was an observation from my own experiences, as well as anecdotal evidence from other keepers and from breeders. There are feeding behavioral differences, such as the early tendencies of bloodreds or certain Miami phases to want anoles rather than mice. Certain other lines are noted as likely to be aggressive feeders. It's logical to infer that differences exist in other types of behavior than feeding; handling, breeding, etc.

I'm new to corns, but I've kept and bred an assortment of other things over the years. In horses and dogs, for instance, certain bloodlines have a reputation for calmness, intelligence, or aggression. I don't mean different breeds, such as Tennessee Walking Horses versus American Quarter Horses, but different families/bloodlines within the same breed.

All creatures are individuals. My 5 corns all exhibit differences in behavior. Some of that may be genetically coded. They're all young -'07s - but when they're ready to breed, I hope try to determine if some of these behaviors are heritable. In the meantime, I'd love to hear about any scientifically sound behavior/intelligence studies in snakes.
 
bitsy said:
What are those in Corns, in your view?
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Bloodreds are spazzy. Sunkissed are pissy. . . . just off the top for morphs.

I have corns that are "gentle" feeders and those that are "aggressive" feeders. . . . just off the top for individual snakes.

I have corns that will only eat in complete privacy and those that don't care if you hold them by the tail and move them around.

I have corns that "appear" to inspect the room when there's commotion in the classroom, and those that tend to hide all day until kids leave the room and the lights turn off.

I know I'm not Caryl, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :D
D80
 
"I know I'm not Caryl, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
D80 "

What?!? How did you know I'm on vacation? :eek:
 
Good thing you've got your BOI Good Guy Certification! :)

Do you know of any good behavioral studies involving snakes?
 
Out of mine they all have very distinct personalities. How much is genetic/line related I don't know, but here's the info anyway

Simbi - Crimson, July 07, breed by Serpenco, very laid back, easy to handle, can be a picky eater on occasion especially when shedding.

Hades - Lavender, 07, small breeder unknown stock, tends to be nippy/flighty, eats like a pig.

Ashera- Fire (amel Bloodred), 07 from SMR, a little flighty but calms down quickly after you pick her up, vicious mouse killer, very strong strike/coil response from the beginning.

So there's my spare change for what it's worth.
 
Can any of the above observations really be put down as sweeping morph characteristics though?

I have a Bloodred and she's a sweetie (not spazzy at all!). On the other hand I have a Butter Mot that's a raging nutjob and two more that are really laid back. Plus a Normal that bites everthing warm that goes near her (just in case it's edible, y'know).

Are we sure we're talking about morph characteristics, and not just individual Corn variations?
 
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