Morphin' Distinction

[Drizzt80]

Can any of the above observations really be put down as sweeping morph characteristics though?

I can truly only speak to Bloodreds. I just recently got two Sunkisseds last summer so don't have the "numbers" to use for those, but just about everyone that has Sunkisseds speaks of their pissy attitudes. FYI, mine aren't.

Speaking to Bloodreds, Over the past 3 years I've hatched roughly 150 Bloodreds. I didn't track spazzy behavior, but subjectively, I'd say approximately 100 to 125 of them were spazzy. :shrugs: Compared to other morphs I hatch out, they are spazzier. By spazzy, I mean they attempt to jump/fly out of your hand when you pick them up and/or thrash side to side. Sometimes calming down, sometimes not.

Just because it doesn't happen every time doesn't mean it's not a tendency for a morph. There are (almost) always exceptions to any "rule".

D80

 

[Caryl]

I've heard that ambers and many caramels are very gentle and laid back. I don't have any of those (yet) but that seems to be a consensus. Some of the behavioral variety out there is just individual variation. As Brent said, any individual animal may or may not possess any of the traits "typical" of its bloodline.

Still, some of the broad tendencies identified with a particular morph are likely to have a genetic component, especially when one considers that corn snake behavior is highly governed by instinctive, biological cues and imperatives. Can they be socialized? Sure. Does that mean they're no longer under instinctive controls? Nope.

There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence out there concerning this topic. I don't think one could properly apply psychology to reptiles, as mentioned in the OP. I do think some types of behvioral/intelligence studies could be done. Gee, if only I could pull down a zillion-dollar grant.....

 

[v_various]

Someone mentioned an example of different personalities for different dog breeds on another thread, but I wonder if snakes are as complex. Do you think personality is influenced by morph or is it all environment or is each individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I don't have experience with a bunch of different corn morphs, but I think the main difference is that dogs were bred for jobs, and to have temperaments that suit those jobs. Of course huskies will have a different personality than a shih tzu, one was bred to run all day in the artic the other was bred to be a lap dog. Breeders aren't really trying for a range of personalities with corns as you would dogs, if a corn is a good feeder and not aggressive toward people there really isn't anything else you could want, personality wise. Though the idea of a 'guard snake' is amusing, now that I think of it.

I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed. It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns. It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

My friend has an okeetee, he's outgoing and has no problems booting around his viv when people are over.

 

[Caryl]

v_various is on target. Reptile breeders are very new on the scene in comparison to dog breeders. Corn snake breeders are working on physical traits like color, pattern, and health. I suppose someone may be working on breeding for temperament, but that doesn't appear to be the large scale trend at the moment. Let me add that I think that's completely appropriate at this stage of the game. I also think there will come a point - maybe soon, as more new people come into the hobby - when breeding for temperament will happen.

Now, who's up for developing that guard snake? How about a lap snake? After reading the last post, I got a mental picture of a sled being pulled by blizzard and snow corns........:dancer:

 

[Bloodred Dad!]

Speaking to Bloodreds, Over the past 3 years I've hatched roughly 150 Bloodreds. I didn't track spazzy behavior, but subjectively, I'd say approximately 100 to 125 of them were spazzy. :shrugs: Compared to other morphs I hatch out, they are spazzier. By spazzy, I mean they attempt to jump/fly out of your hand when you pick them up and/or thrash side to side. Sometimes calming down, sometimes not.


D80

Wow! that explains a lot...lol. Oh my. My blood was pretty spazzy when he was young. We didn't know why he did that. We just thought he "wanted to get away." I thought it was so strange. Now he very comfortable with handling though, so it doesn't really happen anymore. But good to know.

 

[Drizzt80]

I suppose someone may be working on breeding for temperament, but that doesn't appear to be the large scale trend at the moment. . . . I also think there will come a point - maybe soon, as more new people come into the hobby - when breeding for temperament will happen.

I'm going to have to disagree on this to a point. One of the reasons corns are such a great beginner snake is that in general, they are a very very well tempered snake. Now specific cultivars (sunkissed/bloodred)? Yes, someone may decide to breed for temperament. I think you'll see it sooner with Sunkisseds then Bloods. Most are trying to get the Bloods back to the darker reds . . . I think? . . . which is probably "more important" than getting the spazziness out of them. :shrugs: (Especially since it's not necessarily an aggressive spazz.)

Here's another thread with pertinent information on this topic:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67062

D80

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Just a note on lavenders being more "sickly". I don't have the time to search it myself right now, and it could drag this thread O.T., but somewhere on here there is a discussion as to the lavender gene.

I guess what it boils down to is that the theory is lavenders are lavenders not because of just a colour morph gene, but rather a gene that messes up the neural crest cell migration. The colour is a result of other physical deformities is what I got from it. Rich Z. seemed to feel that this may be true as he sees more gimpy lavenders than the other morphs. <correct me if I'm wrong Rich> so I would agree that lavenders CAN be more sickly. I know mine seems to have been a tad more touchy, but I have LIMITED experience as of yet!

My sunkissed is a bugger too, and my bloods are certainly more food oriented and "nippy" at the same time. Certainly not difficult feeders anymore though it seems! lol!

Rebecca

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm going to have to watch the results from a pairing this year, I crossed two snakes that are really not very mellow. I have tried working with both of them to get them more tame but having acquired both snakes as adults, I think they will not change much.
While the purpose of the breeding was not to try and make mean babies, it will be interesting to see if they inherit prickly dispositions. The male has already fathered some babies with several different females last year, I noticed one clutch of his in particular from last year seemed to result in more bitey babies than usual.

 

[torsten]

i dont have many to compare with at the moment but all of my corns feed aggressively some feeds but non-aggressively other times, handling wise my anery stripe is really laid back and docile as is my abbotts okeetee.

 

[Bloodred Dad!]

I'm going to have to watch the results from a pairing this year, I crossed two snakes that are really not very mellow.
While the purpose of the breeding was not to try and make mean babies, it will be interesting to see if they inherit prickly dispositions.

Yes! Oh my. That's pretty a good idea, I'd say. I mean, that's cool that you can get two birds with one stone (so to speak). You definitely have to let us know how that works out.
That's also very interesting about the lavs. I never knew that. Very interesting.

 

[Roy Munson]

Just a note on lavenders being more "sickly". I don't have the time to search it myself right now, and it could drag this thread O.T., but somewhere on here there is a discussion as to the lavender gene.

I guess what it boils down to is that the theory is lavenders are lavenders not because of just a colour morph gene, but rather a gene that messes up the neural crest cell migration. The colour is a result of other physical deformities is what I got from it. Rich Z. seemed to feel that this may be true as he sees more gimpy lavenders than the other morphs. <correct me if I'm wrong Rich> so I would agree that lavenders CAN be more sickly. I know mine seems to have been a tad more touchy, but I have LIMITED experience as of yet!

I don't have much evidence beyond anecdotal, but in my experience, lavs hatch smaller, and they're more prone to congenital defects. The rate at which they "fail to thrive" seems higher than that of other morphs. :shrugs:

 

[Caryl]

When I mentioned "breeding for temperament" meant attempting to improve the general attitude of those morphs that have a reputation for less than mellow behavior. I didn't specifically say that. Brent's absolutely right; corns are great beginner snakes in part because of their super dispostions. Maybe someday that'll be equally true of all morphs.

 

[Bloodred Dad!]

I don't have much evidence beyond anecdotal, but in my experience, lavs hatch smaller, and they're more prone to congenital defects.

I think everyone here knows how important experience is; how much you can learn from your own experience. Just because your observations weren't made in some kind of study, it doesn't mean them any less valid.

I find it interesting everyone's different experiences anyway. I think it's curious to find out how complex 'personality by genetics' are. And maybe 'personality' gives snakes too much credit, maybe 'disposition' is a better word. Just as parents pass on parts of their personality to their children, it would seem natural that two mellow bloods would produce a hatch of mellow bloods and so forth. I think the more people look it to it, the more interesting it'll be come.

I also agree with what's been said about focusing on breeding studies for temperament versus the morph studies. I very much believe that because corn snakes are such good natured snakes that temperament isn't really as important of an agenda at this point in time. Much further down the line, maybe...

 

[patm1313]

Do people who have gray eyes act differently then people with blue ones? I say no. Do African-Americans act different than Caucasians? Yes, but not because of their skin color, because of their culture, so no.

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

 

[susang]

Do African-Americans act different than Caucasians? Yes, but not because of their skin color, because of their culture, so no.

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

So a Black man born and raised in New York is different then a Caucasion man born and raised in New York? I think not while cultrue plays a role they are still men living in US,... Unless of course for example you're talking about the culture of poverty, breeding poverty, glass ceilings, no way out mentality that is not a culture of Balck only.
Different dog breeds act different because of their breeding not where they are from. A white teacup poodle and a black teacup poofle should act the same whether born in New York or LA.

 

[patm1313]

So a Black man born and raised in New York is different then a Caucasion man born and raised in New York?

Look, a Caucasian man born in New York may become an over-achiever destined for Harvard, or he could become his own little Eminem wannabe and think he's tough just because he was born in the Bronx. The same with a Black man, he could also go to Harvard, and find a very well paying job, or he could end up still in his hoe town at age 25, and wondering how he's gonna pay for his rent that week. Neither of those are dependent on skin color, but rather on how a person is raised, and what type of environment a person is exposed to, as well as the choices that person makes regarding education and other things (ie. drugs, crime). A person raised in a ghetto is probably 10 times less likely to find a well paying job and a decent life, compared to a person who was raised under a disciplined and religious family in the suburbs.

I think not while culture plays a role they are still men living in US,... Unless of course for example you're talking about the culture of poverty, breeding poverty, glass ceilings, no way out mentality that is not a culture of Balck only.

But yet all of those things can be affected by the environment a person is raised in. The no-way-out mentality may come from a person whose dad is in prison, brother died over a drug deal, and who's mom is a prostitute, for example. If that same exact person was raised in (using the example above) a suburb, in a "normal" family scene, he may go on to achieve ad succeed, and will not carry that no-way-out mentality.

Different dog breeds act different because of their breeding not where they are from. A white teacup poodle and a black teacup poofle should act the same whether born in New York or LA.

Yes, but think of this: Does and anery have a different shaped head from an Amel? Can a butter slither faster then a bloodred? I don't believe so. But yet, a German Shepard can run faster then a pug, and Golden retriever can swim like a fish but a chihuahua would probably drown trying to swim across a pond.

With dogs, there are different breeds. Breeds are not morphs, but rather, a compilation of traits. However, morphs are only changes in one trait, and that is skin pattern and color.

 

[Bloodred Dad!]

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

First of all, dogs and humans differ almost too greatly to compare personality traits. People are so complex and are each inherently different. For dogs however, things are a little different. Dalmatians are prone to deafness because of the gene that causes spots (a physical characteristic). Also, the genes that create a small version of a specific dog (toy poodle vs. standard) often cause hydrocephalus and canine eclampsia. As well, the gene that causes Dachshund and Basset Hounds to have short legs also causes crippling of the legs (though they've been recently bred so their legs aren't crippled, the gene is still there. It took other genes from different dogs to over ride the crippling). And moreover, the gene that causes Bull Terrier skulls to look like they do also contributes to skin allergies and, in some Bull Terriers, behavior problems. Just because we can't instantly see the results of our actions, it doesn't mean that action wasn't created. And even though it may seem as minute as color pattern, it still makes a difference. My Doberman would still act like a Doberman if he was from Germany. It doesn't matter that he was born and raised here in Texas.

I really hope I'm making my point because it sounds ludicrous (to me) to say that origin has more to do with the way a species or breed turns out than the genetics of the situation (even if they're as miniscule as spots on a Dalmatian).

My 2 cents...

FYI: There are many studies that are going on currently about the discovery with Dalmatians and other breeds. You can take a look for yourself at http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/schaible_research.htm (really interesting)

 

[patm1313]

My Doberman would still act like a Doberman if he was from Germany. It doesn't matter that he was born and raised here in Texas.

I'm not talking about where they were born as much as I'm talking about their ancestry. Greyhounds, which come from Egypt (I think) are way different then say, wolves, which are found more around northern regions. Our dogs' ancestors had evolved to the environment that they were in, and the traits that they gained through evolution still show today in domestic dogs.

 

[Drizzt80]

. . . anyway . . . back to the topic at hand before apples were compared to kumquats . . .

Today I separated out my clutch of 16 hatchlings of which 9 were Normals definitely het Bloodred and the other 7 were Bloodreds. 3 of the Normals bit me and 6 of the 7 Bloods were spazzes but never bit.

D80

 

[Bloodred Dad!]

I'm not talking about where they were born as much as I'm talking about their ancestry. Greyhounds, which come from Egypt (I think) are way different then say, wolves, which are found more around northern regions. Our dogs' ancestors had evolved to the environment that they were in, and the traits that they gained through evolution still show today in domestic dogs.

That makes a little more sense. And just so we are clear, you know that every recognized breed of dog is a descendant of the wolf (hence the name Canis lupus familiaris), right? When dogs were domesticated and first studied, they not only noticed pattern mutations that occurred, but there was such a vast array of colors and patters that they mixed and matched for a while until they discovered how to make dogs different sizes, have different shaped snouts, etc.