Newbie-ess & problem

[diamondlil]

Jemma, honestly, they are together because they thermoregulate and that particular place will be the ideal one right now. They compete for resources, they aren't social animals. With hatchlings especially there is also a risk of cannibalism, rare but it does happen.
I have met keepers who have adult breeding pairs together and only separate when the female is about to lay, keeping them in very large vivariums, I've seen beautiful female-only display vivs shown on here from European keepers, where it's quite the norm.
I cohabbed 5 breeding pairs of adults (each pair co-habbed, not all 10 snakes) this year from late January, but now the females are gravid I'm separating them. I found them curled up together in their hides, because they were competing for the best spots. If any of them had gone off feeding, I'd have separated them straight away, because not feeding is one of the most usual signs of stress in snakes. Because they are established, good-feeding adults, they coped perfectly.
Personally, having had the non-feeder from hell and rehabbed non-feeders for other owners and the shop I wholesale to, I'd never cohab hatchlings.

 

[Dazzles]

I'll just go ahead and throw in another bit here...

And this is not to sound offensive, but, you are being way too sensitive. No one said anything about your childhood, you did. No one brought up childhood abuse, you did. And these individuals are not here to nurture and care for your psyche, they are here to answer questions about your pets. And they tried, and you jumped all over them
Additionally, you threw in the added distraction of accusing them of likening co-habitating snakes to various forms of child abuse.

Additionally: animals compete for natural resources. Natural resources are not JUST food and water, but also shelter. Just because they curl up together, does not mean they line one another, it simply means they like that particular piece of territory.

Your idea that if they didn't like one another they'd move to separate ends is an incorrect one. Animals aren't not logical creatures. Animals are not efficient creatures. They are incapable of dividing up food and space and water equally amongst themselves.

Though it may seem otherwise, snakes are not capable of affection. They do not bond with one another, or with their young. They lay so many eggs as a species (and in some cases birth live snakes) because it is a numbers game, nature didn't intend for all of them to survive.

Snakes can be defensive, curious, and comfortably tolerable of people and one another, but your pet snakes are not enjoying one anothers company, simply tolerating. Or in the case of your female, possibly stressing over it.

 

[starsevol]

Likening snakes who *might* be stressed to a situation where a child - before the age of 4 gets second degree burns in church or is pushed face first through a plate glass window by said parents mother - is offensive to anyone who has been abused.
If you'd bothered to read my responses I have already said they will be separated if needs be and would be separated within the next few months anyway.
I dont mind taking advice on things - I dont mind giving people the benefit of my experiences - and alot of the things I know about I'm one of the very few experts... but d*mn near giving me orders is not passing friendly advice...

Oh and by the way - I just checked on them and they are curled up together like a little snake ball and looking happily out the side of the vivarium at me in a completely different place from their usual hideyholes - that makes three different places where they seem to like spending time together

For starters, I was IN NO WAY likening snakes FORCED to live together to an abused child. I WAS likening snakes FORCED to live together to 2 people FORCED to live together who absolutely HATE each other. HUGE difference!!!!

And they are not "curled up together happily" either.
It's called competing for resources.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Likening snakes who *might* be stressed to a situation where a child - before the age of 4 gets second degree burns in church or is pushed face first through a plate glass window by said parents mother - is offensive to anyone who has been abused.
If you'd bothered to read my responses I have already said they will be separated if needs be and would be separated within the next few months anyway.
I dont mind taking advice on things - I dont mind giving people the benefit of my experiences - and alot of the things I know about I'm one of the very few experts... but d*mn near giving me orders is not passing friendly advice...

Oh and by the way - I just checked on them and they are curled up together like a little snake ball and looking happily out the side of the vivarium at me in a completely different place from their usual hideyholes - that makes three different places where they seem to like spending time together

I was going to answer this..... But the reply below sort of covered all the bases....
Oh and what is it you are one of the few experts in?????

I'll just go ahead and throw in another bit here...

And this is not to sound offensive, but, you are being way too sensitive. No one said anything about your childhood, you did. No one brought up childhood abuse, you did. And these individuals are not here to nurture and care for your psyche, they are here to answer questions about your pets. And they tried, and you jumped all over them
Additionally, you threw in the added distraction of accusing them of likening co-habitating snakes to various forms of child abuse.

Additionally: animals compete for natural resources. Natural resources are not JUST food and water, but also shelter. Just because they curl up together, does not mean they line one another, it simply means they like that particular piece of territory.

Your idea that if they didn't like one another they'd move to separate ends is an incorrect one. Animals aren't not logical creatures. Animals are not efficient creatures. They are incapable of dividing up food and space and water equally amongst themselves.

Though it may seem otherwise, snakes are not capable of affection. They do not bond with one another, or with their young. They lay so many eggs as a species (and in some cases birth live snakes) because it is a numbers game, nature didn't intend for all of them to survive.

Snakes can be defensive, curious, and comfortably tolerable of people and one another, but your pet snakes are not enjoying one anothers company, simply tolerating. Or in the case of your female, possibly stressing over it.

Great answer... Deserved a rep

 

[JemmaUK]

Kathy is a board member here and posts regularly. You might want to tone it down a little. She is highly thought of throughout the Corn Snake world and if you've recieved advice that's contradictory to Kathy's then ten-to-one it's not Kathy who's wrong.

I didnt actually say she was - I was attempting to make the point that even someone as universally respected is sometimes disagreed with on here...

Its a matter of personal choice to be honest - I have at this point made my choice on what I am going to do on the advice I have been given. If it works and she feeds fine this next time then I'll go with the adage for the moment - if it aint broke dont fix it - since its served me well in the past.

In the case of the canines mentioned - I have met rottwielers I wouldnt want to be in the same county as and yet the one down a local pub called lucy was nothing more than several kilos worth of cuddle and spent most of her long life conning drinks out of people by the time honoured tactic of excessive cuteness... its a matter of individual animals... as much as it is people..

I will say again for the record - if I had seen 'any' show of aggression or dominance from either animal I would have split them as soon as possible. I havent. I have seen nothing more serious even to me than the occasional 'S'ing and a exploratory & amazingly gentle nibble (if I hadnt seen it, I definately wouldnt have felt it) when Claudia mistook Jemma-pinkie for mouse-pinkie.

Yes, they are probably just competing for the same place to curl up - fine, but they arent doing it by forcing the other out - they arent getting aggressive or showing any form of defensive or offensive behaviour - so for the next few days they'll be left alone and I will see what happens the next time I feed them.

If they both eat then for the time being I'll leave them to calm down a little - if they dont, then its time I wander into town and get some bits to make Claudia a smaller home on her own..

 

[starsevol]

Right, because a vicious dog and non feeding snake is EXACTLY the same thing!! Especially when you have a "natural affinity" for animals and know just what they are thinking!

Maybe your "natural affinity" with the humans could use a little work....

 

[JemmaUK]

I was going to answer this..... But the reply below sort of covered all the bases....
Oh and what is it you are one of the few experts in?????


Great answer... Deserved a rep

I've worked for the police so I cant tell you much detail - but think a cross between ghost whisperer & CSI - thats one of my unusual talents - and to be honest I wish I didnt have it - I work generally from photos... being able to tell at a glance whether someone is safe or not, alive or not at a glance is not an enviable talent - not to mention what I see if I try harder.

several very rare medical conditions - because I have at least one in one group and maybe more than one (they are not mutually exclusive), and no, I am not going to broadcast it on here in public, ask me and I might tell you - and I am to be tested for FD which means slowly and painfully going blind - another rarity (and something else to blame my mothers family for lol).

I am currently prototyping with a london hospital a purely mechanical - ie does not require drugs - treatment for HIV (its amazing how a scare over that can concentrate the mind). I dont intend to go into details here because its patentable and somewhat complicated to explain. It appeals to me especially since it uses HIV's strengths against it.

Did i mention I came up with the above on my own, in about 45 minutes while sitting in a nice hot bath - very Archimedes I must admit but true nonetheless

I have designed built, tested and upgraded light motorcycles and would if I have the money try and get hold of a light duty diesel to go with the others I have put together. I also did fuel testing on said motors for best performance. 8% nitromethane 12% fuel + 50:1 petroil mix worked best if you are curious.

.... well, you asked...

Not to mention the two books I have had published and the three I have lined up when I get round to finishing them...

And the three lives I saved from a dream about a car accident three years before it happened...

but hey, I am utterly normal right... I must be I keep snakes lol...

I know snakes are like living robots "they dont get happy they dont get sad... they just eat pinkies (and crap everywhere)" to freely quote Short Circuit - but part of humanities instinct is to anthropomorphise - hence why some of the most intelligent of us now call the human race Pans Narrans or The Storytelling Ape ...

And if a snake decides it wants another snake out of its place it will make it clear... I will let things ride as they are for the next few days and then act accordingly..

 

[JemmaUK]

Right, because a vicious dog and non feeding snake is EXACTLY the same thing!! Especially when you have a "natural affinity" for animals and know just what they are thinking!

Maybe your "natural affinity" with the humans could use a little work....

*sigh* I am making the point that while I wouldnt keep a rott or a pitbull anywhere near kids of any age some people do

In the same way that at the moment until I have another option I will chose to do things my way...

It probably could - but then so far in my life dogs, snakes and all others furry, scaled, winged, fanged or otherwise have caused me no harm at all...

I just wish fervently that I could say the same about the hairless ape...

so far its been

2nd degree burns - deliberate
assisted trans window experience - almost lost an eye and my jugular
1 rape
1 attempted rape
5 physical attacks, the worst of which had me in hospital with internal injuries - all because I said no to one of the local oiks.

thats just the highlights so you will forgive me if humans arent exactly my favourite animals...

Those who respect me earn my respect and friendship - those who dont, dont. And verily, those who treat me in like to an idiot - will be told to find a short pier and take a long perambulation....

 

[Shiari]

I cohabbed two of my snakes in the beginning. One started having feeding problems, then stopped eating all together. Both snakes were always found in the same location. When I finally separated them, Ferenea continued a 6 week long hunger strike, followed by on again, off again eating for many months. Feren is, admittedly, a nervous snake and will skip a meal now if handled too much (did not do this as a hatchling). However, that early feeding issue has caused my 2007-born snake to be around 115 grams. Feren's old tankmate, Liam, is 285. They were the same size when I got them.

*edit*

You might make more friends, and find more people willing to try to earn your respect if you don't automatically dismiss them out of hand. I've been bit and scratched by cats, attacked by 3 dogs, stepped on by a horse, butted by a sheep, and been bit by most of my snakes. As for humans, I was tormented through all of grade school, been stalked where the only reason why I *wasn't* raped was because of the dogs we had at the time, been followed through downtown of a city while heading back to the dorms and only reason *that* guy stopped was because I had a dagger with me at the time and dropped into a fight stance in the middle of a street, have had no less than three people declare their intention to kill me and was hit by an emotionally unstable man who wanted to date me. It's not as bad as yours, to be sure, but it's not been peachy either. And somehow, I still have a huge affinity with animals AND have managed to not step on the toes of nearly everyone on the forum.

 

[whippet]

Dude.... why ask if you don't want the answer. I suggest you go and find a website where people will tell you what you want to hear not the truth. Good luck with that.

 

[Candachan]

Snakes are not usually aggressive towards each other, because physically fighting wastes precious energy. This does not mean they are peacefully being friends. It is better for their survival to tolerate the presence of the other snake, but it is still very stressful for them! Baby snakes do not show the emotions and behaviors that people would expect from a stressed out dog, or an aggressive badger.

I have seen small YEARLING females become gravid and egg-bound. At 50cm (about 19-20 inches) your female could very well become pregnant, in the wild she would have the option of escaping a male, but she doesn't have that option with you. You are also very arrogant to assume that you would see every interaction between the two snakes, most people do not see their snakes drinking because they are most active during the hours that you are not sitting there staring at them. They are very solitary, secretive animals!

Saying you cannot afford another habitat is a very sad excuse, considering a lot of breeders keep their babies in plastic containers that can be had for cheap or even FREE. I guarantee you that they will be actively moving and rubbing the edges of their new home, as any snake would in any new environment, but they would be settled in within a day or two and definitely much less stressed than living with another snake.

 

[starsevol]

*sigh* I am making the point that while I wouldnt keep a rott or a pitbull anywhere near kids of any age some people do

In the same way that at the moment until I have another option I will chose to do things my way...

It probably could - but then so far in my life dogs, snakes and all others furry, scaled, winged, fanged or otherwise have caused me no harm at all...

I just wish fervently that I could say the same about the hairless ape...

so far its been

2nd degree burns - deliberate
assisted trans window experience - almost lost an eye and my jugular
1 rape
1 attempted rape
5 physical attacks, the worst of which had me in hospital with internal injuries - all because I said no to one of the local oiks.

thats just the highlights so you will forgive me if humans arent exactly my favourite animals...

Those who respect me earn my respect and friendship - those who dont, dont. And verily, those who treat me in like to an idiot - will be told to find a short pier and take a long perambulation....

I truly do not care about alllllll the ways you have been hurt.
You asked a question as to why your snake is not eating. I answered.
I truly believe that you are hurting your snakes by keeping them the way you do.
I truly believe that the reason you have a problem is because of what you are doing.
If you don't want to hear it, then you don't want to hear it. Fine.
You have such a natural affinity for animals, then you shouldn't have a problem now should you?

But if you can't afford another enclosure, how in the world will you be able to provide vet care if one gets sick?

You can't afford to properly care for 2 snakes, then you shouldn't have 2 snakes....

 

[Candachan]

Not sure exactly how being raped has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with you co-habbing two snakes.

There are a lot of people here who are true experts on cornsnakes, and have been breeding and caring for them for DECADES. Lots of them have published books and pioneered a lot of breakthroughs in their breeding and husbandry in general. There are also a lot of people here who have very solid reasons why cohabbing is generally frowned upon, and have the dead snakes to prove it.

The fact that you are flat-out rejecting this advice simply because you don't like the way it was presented is foolish. You don't throw away a gift because you didn't like the box it came in.

 

[Dazzles]

This is moderately off-topic, and I hope I don't get sanctioned for this, but:

I understand what you're going through. Except add needles, and rape over a period of 8 years.

You have a natural affinity toward animals, you relate to them better, and that is great.

Be a deer.

It is the best advice anyone has ever given me, it changed my life.

Be a deer.

You take a person into the woods and shoot them, they fall, they weep, they die. People are not survivors, not alone.

You shoot a deer in the woods and if it is able, it keeps on running, keeps on living. It isn't afraid the rest of its live. It doesn't use that pain the rest of its life as a crutch.

If you hate the "hairless ape" so much, stop exhibiting one of their worst qualities: self pity.

 

[kloe2008]

They are both young juveniles in the same viv (yes I know, dont start, they seem fine and happy with each other)

Do you speak snake too? Have they both told you theyre fine & happy together?

the most intelligent of us

It isn't very intelligent to ignore good advice given by some of the most experienced snake owners in America - And without a doubt in the UK....
Sorry, I just feel you shouldn't be co-habbing knowing that it really isn't advised.
Besides that, welcome Essex girl... & remember to visit The UK forum....

 

[Candachan]

This is moderately off-topic, and I hope I don't get sanctioned for this, but:

I understand what you're going through. Except add needles, and rape over a period of 8 years.

You have a natural affinity toward animals, you relate to them better, and that is great.

Be a deer.

It is the best advice anyone has ever given me, it changed my life.

Be a deer.

You take a person into the woods and shoot them, they fall, they weep, they die. People are not survivors, not alone.

You shoot a deer in the woods and if it is able, it keeps on running, keeps on living. It isn't afraid the rest of its live. It doesn't use that pain the rest of its life as a crutch.

If you hate the "hairless ape" so much, stop exhibiting one of their worst qualities: self pity.

I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

- DH Lawrence

 

[JemmaUK]

You suggested I dont deal very well with humans, so I told you why I dont. Some humans on here I have alot of time for an I am naturally a generous person - but once you put my back up; up it stays.

I will say it slowly for not least the 3rd time...

If Claudia does not eat the next time I attempt to feed her - then I will split them.

The two snakes are approximately 30-40 centimeters in length - much bigger and I will split them anyway.

If they are stressed (which is anthropomorphizing anyways, the very thing you are bitching at me about btw) then I see no reason to make it worse right now by yanking her out of the viv shes in without trying feeding her one more time after a period of isolation to see if the situation improves.

I have followed all the advice about co-habbing such as separate feeding and multiple hides and so forth. It is not an ideal situation in my personal opinion. But until I have given it a fair go I am not going to start chopping and changing for the sake of it.

I hope you got all that because I have no intention of explaining it again and have what I say ignored in a cloud of righteous indignation.

 

[kloe2008]

ignored in a cloud of righteous indignation.

Practically what you have done then...Why wait to split them up...Just to see if one is more cannibalistic than the other !!
Dont let the side down and make us Brits out to be as ignorant as everybody says we are.

 

[Candachan]

Stress is a actual scientifically measurable thing, and not an emotion. Emotions can cause stress, but stress is NOT an emotion in itself and is not anthromorphizing. You are explaining that you don't think what you are doing is wrong, even though you have a snake displaying signs of stress (NOT EATING) and even when you have countless people telling you the opposite.

 

[Shiari]

If they are stressed (which is anthropomorphizing anyways, the very thing you are bitching at me about btw)

Actually, that's not anthropomorphising. Stress is a reaction to non-ideal circumstances and stress has been proven via certain raised hormone levels that, over a prolonged period of time can lead all sorts of problem including eating problems, cancer, and death. Stress is easily seen in the "higher" animals such as elephants (swaying), large predators (pacing), parrots (feather plucking) and even mice (barbering/fights). Snakes are much harder to read with regards to body language when it comes to something with relatively subtle cues as stress.

Anthropomorphising would be saying that your snakes are friends and having a lovely time together.