PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!

[DuxorW]

I'm not sure how helpful it will be even if a ton of other cinder breeders chime in. Cinder could assort independently in most of the het cinder females out there. The best evidence is if a single het cinder female that is only producing male or female cinders consistently produces the same skewed ratio in clutch after clutch.

Those snakes that proved het cinder and did produce females...did they produce any males?

 

[DuxorW]

(I'm sure you know what I meant, but I meant to ask if those that produced female cinders produced any male cinders)

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It says in my notes one of them had 3 female cinder and 2 male cinder, and the other had just females but it was a really small clutch- 4 eggs hatched and others were slugs

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The notes I have here also for 2010 says that "Zap" only produced male cinders that year also... In 2011 I have no results for her because she was bred to a poss het cinder male that didn't prove out, but that's at least 2 pairings that she consistently throws only males.

 

[DuxorW]

Thanks this is very helpful. Could you clarify this sentence for me?

"In 2011 I bred a cinder male of Carol's that was here on loan to several of my snakes to try and prove their het cinders, but unfortunately only one turned out to be het cinder but she did produce females, and so did her sister (clutchmate) the same year"

You said only one turned out to be het cinder but do you mean two did? Since it was one female and her sister?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Sorry, to clarify, two '07 full sisters and one of them was bred to Carol's cinder, the other to a different cinder male.

 

[DuxorW]

But they both proved het cinder?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Yes, with one producing 3 cinder females (but there were only 4 eggs in the clutch) and the other had 2.3 cinder (and I am waiting to hear back from her new owner how she did this year)

 

[DuxorW]

Great, again this will be very helpful and thank you so much for helping!

Another question. Were these two sisters related to Zap in any way? And if so, could you give me some info on how they're related?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Most of my het cinders were fathered by "Zephyr"
In 07 The following pairings occured
Zephyr X "Circe" producing "Zap" that throws male cinders and others (proved not het cinder)
Zephyr X "Hera" producing "Zipporah" that throws male cinders and others that proved not het.
Zephyr X hypo Medusa producing "Zenny and Zpade" the 2 sisters we are talking about that both proved het cinder and have thrown females

This help?

AFAIK The females paired to Zephyr were unrelated to one another

 

[DuxorW]

Yes this is great. Zephyr is homo cinder?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Het cinder, homo cinders were still out of my price range at the time

 

[DuxorW]

Great. Zenny and Zpade will share the same W chromosome that they got from mom. They will have cinder on their Z chromosomes. If they have a normal W chromosome then they would both be able to throw male and female cinders. Which one had the small clutch of only 4 eggs? Do you know who has her now?

Their W chromosome is unrelated to Zap's which is good. If they were related and shared the same W chromosome then I would have expected these girls to only make males.

So Zipporah has only thrown male cinders? How many offspring has she produced?

 

[DuxorW]

When I say "normal" W chromosome I mean one that is not suppressing crossover.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Zenny was the one with the smaller clutch and only female offspring. Unfortunately I only kept in touch with the owner of "Zpade" so "Zenny" whereabouts and pairings after rehoming her are unknown to me.
Zipporah (unrelated except fathered by Zephyr) has bred twice to cinder or cinder hets and only produces males. Zap as well. Those are the 2 I still have from '07 holdbacks.
If I had known the others were special for producing females I would have held on to them- the market crashed and I couldn't justify having that many het cinder females. I've also been having health issues and stress and just become more interested in other species besides corns. So I downsized a lot of stuff...

 

[DuxorW]

Yes, if only we could all see the future, lol!

Zipporah (unrelated except fathered by Zephyr) has bred twice to cinder or cinder hets and only produces males. Zap as well. Those are the 2 I still have from '07 holdbacks.

I don't know if you kept detailed records of the offspring, but do you still have detailed info on the Zipporah's breedings to cinder or cinder hets? I would just need the phenotypes and sex of each offspring. It would help tremendously if you got around to it.

Basically there is a statistical test I can do that will determine if there is sex linkage in your male-making females or whether it is chance and Murphy is rearing his ugly head. I know my theory is weird and confusing because there seem to be 3 types of females, those that throw males, those that throw females, and those that throw both. But after talking to a couple of geneticist colleagues at work, it is the only explanation (other than a few possible tweaks) that can explain the data. But that cinder is on the Z and W chromosomes, we are essentially certain.

To organize things this is the info that would help me. For each pairing of Zap and Zipoorah, I would need:
Genetics of the het cinder dame (ie is she het for anything else):
Genetics of the sire:
Sex and phenotype of all offspring:

If you found the time to do that, it would be immensely helpful!

 

[ghosthousecorns]

OK this is quick summary of what info I have. Zap hatched in '07 and has done the following pairings.
2010 Zap X Zephyr She is het hypo cinder motley, he was normal het hypo cinder and is her sire (from the '07 pairing of Zephyr X Circe a ghost motley) Results: Normals, hypos, and 2 male hypo cinders. I can't find anywhere that I have written down the genders of the other babies ATM but the two hypo cinders were male
2011 Zap X Zoroaster to test him for cinder, he was not het and she produced no cinders.
2012 Zap got the year off
2013 Zap X "Fiver" (her hypo cinder son from the 2010 pairing) 2 clutches from her that year totalling 5 Hypo cinder males with 2 suspected being motley but still had a couple of belly checkers. 7 female hypo and 3 female hypo motley
2014 did not breed her

Zipporah is half sister to Zap also an 07 sired by Zephyr this time to anery motley het hypo girl. She is hypo het cinder motley just like Zap and has had the following pairings:
2012 Zipporah bred to male "Zowie" a cinder het hypo from serpenco results 2 male hypo cinder, 4 male cinder, 5 female hypo, 7 female normals
2013- Zipporah year off
2014 Zipporah was bred to a ghost motley with no cinder in him (shooting for ghosts)
For some reason I thought I had done another cinder pairing with her but I was wrong.

"Zap" is the one I would breed next year as I like to give them every other year off. And has now twice given only male cinders. She's the one I'd be up for loaning if needed.

 

[DuxorW]

2010 Zap X Zephyr She is het hypo cinder motley, he was normal het hypo cinder and is her sire (from the '07 pairing of Zephyr X Circe a ghost motley) Results: Normals, hypos, and 2 male hypo cinders. I can't find anywhere that I have written down the genders of the other babies ATM but the two hypo cinders were male

Thanks. I can't do the statistics without the genders of the other offspring BUT

2013 Zap X "Fiver" (her hypo cinder son from the 2010 pairing) 2 clutches from her that year totalling 5 Hypo cinder males with 2 suspected being motley but still had a couple of belly checkers. 7 female hypo and 3 female hypo motley

However this I can work with! For the test to be most accurate I need 20 eggs where I know the sex and phenotype from Zap and we have 15 right now, so if she produces at least 5 more surviving eggs from a pairing with a homo cinder then I would have the 20 I need from her. Do you happen to know how many of the eggs from her mating to Fiver were slugs or did not hatch?

 

[carol]

Could this discussion also account for why some cinders are noticeably red while others are not? Unless I've missed something, I've still yet to understand that.

I was wondering the same thing.

I wonder if that carries through to amel cinder, as well. My female is very pale. But her amel offspring in 2013 were quite red- but the sire was from Cayenne Fire lines.

Yes, it does.

This thread is extremely interesting.

I was wondering why some Cinders and also some het Cinders have split belly checkers? I hatched out some het Cinders this season and some of them have split belly checkers.

Here is a Normal het Cinder, Stripe ph Hypo and a Hypo het Cinder, Stripe.

This is extremely common. In my experience, it is way more rare to hatch an animal from Cinder lines with full belly checkers. I see people read too much into it ALL the time. As, Rich stated, all Cinders and others from Cinder lines originate from Upper Keys stock and have always had extremely reduced belly checks. I am sure this will change the more they are out crossed.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

In her first (2013) clutch there were 17 eggs, 2 did not hatch. I did however count the hypos in that clutch wrong, 9 female hypo, one female hypo motley, 4 male hypo cinder 2 of which may have been motley. Same pairing, same year, She did have the second clutch of seven eggs, of which 3 hatched, producing one male hypo cinder, and 2 female hypo mots. OK so not the 20 you need but at least we are up to 18. And she did have the 2 male hypo cinder in 2010 and no female cinders that year, either.