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PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!

So, if I understand correctly, does that mean that the crossover ability of the mother should not affect male offspring? Which is to say, if I have a female het cinder that only produces male offspring, then take a male cinder offspring and outcross to a female that CAN undergo cinder crossover (even though she does not carry the cinder gene herself), can I reasonably assume that the female hets from this pairing should also be able to produce female cinder offspring as a result of crossover? Sorry if that question is convoluted, please let me know if you want me to clarify what I mean.
 
I know what you mean. The answer should be yes. The problem is you have no way of knowing whether she can undergo crossover at the cinder locus since she is homozygous wt there. Unless she has a full sister who produced het cinder offspring who were able to produce males and females, then you would know, lol!
 
Yes that does make sense! And a much better explanation than the one I had in mind (which was that Zpade's mom had been het cinder unknown to me, which would have been a possibility since she did come from Serpenco, but a remote possibility because I doubt Rich would have let a het cinder female go at that time for the price I bought that snake for)
Oh, and Zipporah and Zap had different moms but the third pargraph in your above post probably applied to both of them.
Unfortunately I am realizing that all my holdback cinder stuff is now either male or only able to produce males, except for the one female cinder snake from Walter, I guess she will be my main cinder producer for future breedings. I'm not sure I personally want to produce clutches of corn snakes where all cinders will be males lol
 
ok. I get what you're saying. So as a matter of curiosity, do you believe that crossover suppression is a rather prevalent gene amongst captive corn snakes, and we just never see it because most of the genes we breed for are not sex linked, or do you think it is a rare one that is just pervasive in cinder lines?
 
It's not that crossover suppression is a gene per se. It's just that as two members of a chromosome pair become more different from each other, crossover is impaired because it occurs at regions of high similarity between members of a chromosome pair. That's why an inverted piece of chromosome suppresses crossing over (that, and if crossover does occur at an inversion, it is usually fatal). Plenty of people don't have problems making female cinders. But I have seen several crosses to wt (lava, butter, etc) females not het for cinder that produced het cinder daughters that only make male cinders. So it is not just pervasive in cinder lines. However, other sex-linked genes could be outside the region where crossover is suppressed, we'd just have to wait and see what pops up. Our captive bred corn snakes are the product of different localities that have been genetically isolated from one another (a keys corn is not normally breeding with a Carolina in the wild) and would be expected to have accumulated differences in the sex chromosomes over time. Plus DNA from other species has been introduced by hybridization probably both in the wild and in captivity, which could also be expected to introduce variants of the sex chromosomes that can't crossover in specific regions.
 
DuxorW said:
I know what you mean. The answer should be yes. The problem is you have no way of knowing whether she can undergo crossover at the cinder locus since she is homozygous wt there. Unless she has a full sister who produced het cinder offspring who were able to produce males and females, then you would know, lol!
Click to expand...

Would it have to be a full sister? Or just a half sister who had the same mother? Since the half sisters from the same mother would have gotten each of their W chromosomes from that mother... so they'd have the same W chromosome.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Yes that does make sense! And a much better explanation than the one I had in mind (which was that Zpade's mom had been het cinder unknown to me, which would have been a possibility since she did come from Serpenco, but a remote possibility because I doubt Rich would have let a het cinder female go at that time for the price I bought that snake for)
Oh, and Zipporah and Zap had different moms but the third pargraph in your above post probably applied to both of them.
Unfortunately I am realizing that all my holdback cinder stuff is now either male or only able to produce males, except for the one female cinder snake from Walter, I guess she will be my main cinder producer for future breedings. I'm not sure I personally want to produce clutches of corn snakes where all cinders will be males lol
Click to expand...

Do you still have the female that produced Zpade and the other one that was able to produce females? If so (and assuming I'm following Dustin's theory correctly), you should be able to produce female producing het cinder females by breeding that Serpenco mommy to a cinder male.

Of course, especially since I believe you said in another post that you don't want to do much corn breeding this coming year, it might be better to just purchase a visual cinder female. Those might be pricey and in short supply for a while though.
 
I don't have her anymore but I believe she would be pretty old to breed even if I still did. I had purchased that snake as already an adult from Rich's "surplus breeders" sale 10 years ago.
I am wondering if the silver queens also originated from the FL keys and thus the genes are closer. If what Duxor is saying about the proximity of the breeding populations/ locality playing a part holds true- perhaps using other FL keys snakes would increase one's chances of getting females that can produce cinder females. I'm basically wondering if breeding cinders to my Boyd line rosy rats (also a FL keys morph) would be a good idea.

I have that female cinder I got from Walter so I should be able to use her for future projects, too.

TBH I am dealing with an upcoming surgery and I don't want to make many snake breeding plans until I know I am fully recovered and can be pain free next year and able to enjoy the hobby the way I used to.
 
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Oh right. I don't know how I forgot you had that female from Walter, considering I quoted the part where you mentioned her.

It'll be interesting to see results from her, and specifically her het daughters. Since Walter hasn't been able to produce many visual cinder females, maybe just this one, she is presumably the result of a rare crossover on a mostly unable to crossover W chromosome, instead of the ones that can crossover freely. Does that mean her W chromosome will now be able to crossover freely? I kind of think not. I think it would still have the inversion (unless the reason it crossed over was cuz it uninverted itself... dunno if that is even a realistic possibility). So... does that mean we would expect her het daughters to be female makers? We don't have any reported female makers yet, do we?
 
This is the only one he made that he is aware of, I think. Does he know which of his females produced her?
 
Here's the post Walter made about the pairing- He had gotten the dame from Danny Wynn link
Later Danny posted some additional info on her, it turns out her mom was the original "Ashy" female. Which explains why she could produce females, right? here

That's all I know but I am extremely grateful to both of them for providing me with the background on Zebra.
 
Yes that explains it. I am glad she did not come from his het cinders that only produce males, it would have just complicated things.
 
Just some info on my findings, because it is an interesting topic :)

In 2009 I bought a Cinder (Ashy line) het. hypo male. He started all my cinder-projects.
In 2011 I bred him to a AmberBloodred, a Butter and a Lavender Motley female.
In 2013 I bred those babys and hatched babys out of all three projects.
I did not keep specific numbers, BUT.....

Out of the 'Cinder lavender motley' project I got 1.0 Cinder Motley and 1.0 Cinder Lavender Motley. No homozygous cinder females.

Out of the 'Cinder Butter' project I got a lot of Cinders, but ALL males.

Out of the 'Cinder Amber Bloodred' project I got 0.3 Amber Cinder (no males), but all other homozygous cinders (Cinder, Cinder Bloodred, Hypo Cinder) where males.

In my experience it is possible to hatch female homozygous Cinder females, but the odds I got last year where not 50/50, more like 10% females and 90% males.
Also, all females where Amber Cinders, so who knows if that has some meaning, or maybe just a coincedence?

Thanks,
Josua
 
People I have spoken to privately have females that produce an even ratio of male and female cinders as long as their female is capable of making both. But yeah looks like your amber bloodred female was the only one without suppressed crossover. Annoying how noncinder females have to be bred to find out what their daughters will do! I'd be interested to see future results from the cinder amber blood project, I bet it was just a coincidence all the amber cinders were female. They were a het hypo cinder caramel diffused x same matings, right?

A fun statistical rule of thumb: when trying to make an inference ideally you would have enough eggs to have expected to hatch at least 5 of each possible outcome. That is why I am collecting data on cinder x het cinder crosses. If there is not sex-linkage in a specific female, out of 20 eggs you'd expect 5 male ciders, 5 female cinders, 5 male normals, and 5 female normals, so 20 eggs from each het cinder female lets you do good statistics on that female. If it is a het x het clutch the number of eggs you need for decent statistics becomes 40. When you add in other recessive genes the number skyrockets if you want to consider those genes as well! (Most of the crosses I have data on involve other genes as well but they can be ignored if you are only concerned with cinder and sex)

Also I would love to see pics of amber cinders and especially lavender cinders, I don't think anyone has ever posted them!
 
Oh and thanks for taking the time to post your results! Further supports that this phenomenon is determined by the mother and not the father.
 
I have a female ghost striped whose granddame was the dame to Zpade and Zenny. I wonder if she would be a good candidate for breeding trials.
 
Her het cinder daughters *should* be able to make male and female cinders. We hopefully could get a paper published before that but it would be of interest to the community to know if they can reliably trace this thing down the female line...

Just to verify, it is the mother of the ghost striped that is the daughter of the dame of Zenny and Zpade? Just checking because to predict the results there has to be a chain tracing only through females and not the males.
 
The dame to Zenny and Zpade was named "Medusa" she was the surplus sale hypo het silver queen serpenco snake.
Before ever breeding her with cinder stuff I bred Medusa to a ghost stripe male. I held back a 1.1 from that pairing. I bred those together to get this ghost stripe. So she is the grandmother on both sides.
 
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