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PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!

Jen,
here is a pic. of something Nanci wrote up and posted earlier.

This should help once you understand the Z & W chromosome........it did for me.

a het Cinder Z would be produced by a HOMO Cinder MALE
a het Cinder W would be produced by a HOMO Cinder FEMALE

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 

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het cinder m x het cinder f: the cinder offspring will be only male or only female depending on whether the het female has the cinder mutation on her Z or W chromosome.

The rest looks right. And yes Nanci beat me to the punch and uploaded that nice diagram. This is why I am so disturbed by Carol's peppermint stripe male x amel het cider stripe female results. She says she got male and female peppermints but I am hoping that the results are skewed and there is only like 1 male or 1 female peppermint and the others are of the opposite sex.
 
a het Cinder Z would be produced by a HOMO Cinder MALE
a het Cinder W would be produced by a HOMO Cinder FEMALE

Actually, a het Cinder Z can be produced by a homo cinder male OR a homo cinder female. That is why homo females will be so valuable (assuming this theory proves to be correct). They will be able to produce both het cinder Z AND het cinder W, while homo cinder males will only be able to produce het cinder Z.

This is why I am so disturbed by Carol's peppermint stripe male x amel het cider stripe female results. She says she got male and female peppermints but I am hoping that the results are skewed and there is only like 1 male or 1 female peppermint and the others are of the opposite sex.

I need to go back and re-read again later when I have more time, but I think I saw another posting (by Jen maybe?) that also didn't sound right. I was just skimming, so maybe it was something that could be explained by a crossover.
 
That is why homo females will be so valuable (assuming this theory proves to be correct). They will be able to produce both het cinder Z AND het cinder W, while homo cinder males will only be able to produce het cinder Z.

Well, the homo females can produce homo cinder daughters, but any het cinder daughters will be het cinder on their W chromosome and will thus be female makers.

I need to go back and re-read again later when I have more time, but I think I saw another posting (by Jen maybe?) that also didn't sound right. I was just skimming, so maybe it was something that could be explained by a crossover.

Thankfully once she clarified the results sounded ok. She has a miami het cinder female that is making homo cinder females, and two hypo het cinder females that are throwing homo cinder males.

But yes, a lot is riding on Carol's result.
 
Jen,
here is a pic. of something Nanci wrote up and posted earlier.

This should help once you understand the Z & W chromosome........it did for me.

a het Cinder Z would be produced by a HOMO Cinder MALE
a het Cinder W would be produced by a HOMO Cinder FEMALE

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Well, the homo females can produce homo cinder daughters, but any het cinder daughters will be het cinder on their W chromosome and will thus be female makers.

Maybe I didn't word it right, but pretty much what I said here isn't it ???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Yes what you said was right, I think kc261 was just adding that a homo cinder female can also produce het cinder Z offspring, but the het cinder Z offspring would be male and they would have gotten the het cinder Z from their father, as mothers cannot give their daughter a Z at all.
 
Yes what you said was right, I think kc261 was just adding that a homo cinder female can also produce het cinder Z offspring, but the het cinder Z offspring would be male and they would have gotten the het cinder Z from their father, as mothers cannot give their daughter a Z at all.

Ah, gottcha.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Well, this is a rather interesting discussion, is it not?

Honestly, I really don't remember a lot of details concerning the sex ratios of clutches I got from my Cinders (sorry, I may inadvertently call them "Ashy Corns" here and there, as that kind of got stuck in my mind), but I don't recall anything out of the ordinary concerning sex ratios from that line. In the clutches I produced of both Cinder and Hypo Cinders, I simply recall that sex ratios seemed to be pretty much normal, in that when I would sex and pull them to sell, I didn't have any distress coming up with sexual pairs.

Unfortunately any such notes are long gone of such things. Heck, even my invoicing program with the database of what I have sold over the years I used is probably on a computer that is no longer functional. And the zillions of egg-laying/hatching cards got thrown out because I didn't see any sense of keeping them around.

But perhaps the history of how I came about the Cinders might be at least interesting, if not exactly helpful. I recently was asked this, so I'll just cut and paste what I wrote at that time.

I was at a little reptile show in Alabama (I believe it was the Dixie Reptile Show run by Terry Heuring) a long while back, and there was a guy and his son there up from the Florida Keys who had a wild caught gravid "upper keys" corn he wanted to trade for one of Connie's leopard geckos. So what the heck. It looked like a nice specimen, and lord knows we had enough leopard geckos to spare.

So, I hatched the babies out, and best I can recall just sold off all the babies, since nothing especially interesting resulted. Then the following season I wanted to embark on a project to produce hypo "upper keys" corns and used this female to be bred by one of my hypo males. I kept a few pairs of these hets that hatched out and then sold off the rest. I believe Carol likely got some of these individuals, or perhaps got some of those original wild caught "upper keys".

Anyway, I grew up those critters and when I bred them together, I got a few odd looking things that I thought were likely either Anerythristics or perhaps Charcoals. Lord knows I had enough of those genes popping up in unexpected projects, so I thought that Hypo male might have brought one of those genes along with his hypo contribution. Anyway, I guess they most have looked different enough to be worth the effort, so when I grew them up, I test bred them with the above mentioned lines and was surprised to get all normals in all test breedings. So I ran the same tests the following year to make sure. This time I even bred them with Caramel and Lavender, just to cover as many bases as I could. Honestly, I didn't want to go out on a limb and claim a new gene unless I was darn sure about it. But it turned out that way, apparently. Lord only knows where all those multi hets finally wound up.

Carry on....
 
Oh, btw, if no one has any objections, I think this thread really should go into the Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues forum.
 
So based on some results from Carol it seems that some het females have no problem throwing both males and females! Her amel het cinder stripe produced 4 homo cinder males and 4 homo cinder females. This seems remarkably improbably given my theory. Yet others only throw males, and I have heard from someone else that theirs only throws females. What gives? I have an interesting idea that I will post shortly, and I do think that the cinder locus is still on the Z and W chromosome!
 
Oh, I can't wait to hear this. I'm off to bed though. I'll see if any of the wild ideas I come up with over night actually matches yours or not. :)
 
Ok so here goes...

As stated above, it appears that some female het cinders throw all males, some throw all females (this seems less common), and some seem to have no trouble throwing either.

To explain this, I need to introduce the concept of genetic linkage. Imagine we have a snake that is homozygous for two recessive mutations we'll just refer to as Tender and Kisses (don't ask). We mate this snake to a wild type female to make babies that are het Tender het Kisses. We then mate these babies together. We would expect to get the classic 9:3:3:1 ratio of 3/16 Tender, 3/16 Kisses, 9/16 normal, and 1/16 Tender Kisses, correct?

Well, it turns out that we get 1/4 Tender Kisses and 3/4 normal. What? That 3:1 ratio is the ratio we'd expect if we were working with a single gene, not two genes! This is where linkage comes in.

These ratios we use on programs like corn calc assume that two mutant alleles like stripe and amel assort independently during meiosis so that the inheritance of one allele does not affect the inheritance of the other. This is true if the mutations are on different chromosomes, say chromosome 3 and 5. But what if the mutations are on the same chromosome? If mutations Tender and Kisses are on the same chromosome (let's use 9) they will always be inherited together unless a crossover occurs between them and separates them. In a het, this would create one chromosome 9 that has the Tender mutation on it on it but is wild type for Kisses, and the other chromosome 9 would be wild type for Tender and have the Kisses mutation. However, if crossover does not ever occur and they are always inherited together as a single unit, this would create the 1/4 Tender Kisses 3/4 normal ratio we saw.

If genes are really far apart on the same chromosome, they act like they are on different chromosomes because of the odds of single/double/triple crossovers occuring between them.

However, if two mutations are on the same chromosome and are far apart, there are factors that can still cause them to be inherited together. Large inversions on one of the chromosomes in the pair can suppress crossing over, causing the mutations to stay linked. However, this doesn't affect whether males or females are the ones who inherit the mutations together. Unless the mutations are on sex chromosomes.

This brings me back to cinder. I am reversing my earlier theory that crossovers between the cinder alleles on the Z and W chromosomes are rare! Instead, I think they are common! For reasons I won't go into, the recombination frequency between genes that are far apart on the same chromosome is 50%. I think the cinder locus is thus located on a large region of similarity between the Z and W chromosomes and thus experiences a 50% recombination rate, which is indistinguishable from independent assortment. However, I think that in CERTAIN lines of females, there may be an inversion or some other factor on the Z or W chromosome that is SUPPRESSING crossovers in these females. This prevention of a crossover will keep the cinder allele on the Z or W chromosome and skew the sex ratio of homo cinder offspring. This suppression is not 100% but is still very high.

This may sound wild but as a geneticist it makes perfect sense to me. It does make a prediction. A het cinder female who is throwing male cinders should do so in every clutch. A het cinder female throwing female cinders should continue to do so in every clutch. Because the crossover suppression is not 100%, there should be rare exceptions, but the pattern should stay the same for each individual het female. A het cinder female who makes male and female cinders should also continue to do so in future clutches.

If the inversion is on the Z chromosome, note that suppression of a crossover still has no effect in the sire. Assume he is het cinder. Since he is Z Z, a crossover can swap a cinder mutation from one Z chromosome to the other but the result on reproduction will not be different than if a crossover did not occur. A het cinder male has to give one of his Z chromosomes to both his male and female offspring. Whether or not crossover occurs, he would have 50% wt Z sperm and 50% cinder Z sperm.

What will be interesting is whether the suppressor of crossing over is on the Z chromosome. This is a disturbing possibility as male cinders/het cinders could pass this on to their daughters and cause them to have suppressed crossovers when producing offspring. Hopefully the suppressor of crossing over is on the W chromosome and hopefully the rare crossovers do not also encompass the suppressor of crossing over and move it to the Z chromosome in some individuals!!!

Again, this may sound crazy, but in the lab we actually take advantage of crossover suppression. Sometimes we want to make double or triple mutants of say, a fly. If the mutations are on the same chromosome we want them to be inherited together to increase our odds of recovering double and triple mutants when mating to another het. We use so-called "balancer" chromosomes that contain large inversions and suppress crossing over when they pair to the mutant chromosome, thus keeping all the mutant alleles together in a gamete.

Have I confused everyone yet?
 
Also, I bet this possible chromosome inversion is a natural variant. Different corn snake localities are going to have genetic differences (hence why a miami looks different from a carolina corn) because they are isolated from each other and are diverging. I bet different localities may have differences in their sex chromosomes and some could suppress crossing over. We have just never noticed it because we didn't have any genes on the Z/W chromosomes to be affected by it. Suppression of crossover on other chromosomes will also not have any effect on the inheritance of known morphs if none of those known morphs are linked to each other (very possible since the corn has 36 chromosomes). However, since the cinder locus is on the same chromosome as the locus/loci that determines sex, we will observe linkage between the cinder allele and sex IF crossover is suppressed.
 
Thanks for sharing your theories, DuxorW :) Very interesting.

This whole genetic linkage thing is interesting, also because it could theoretically lead to the "het markers" some people are so insistent "cannot exist because then it wouldn't be a het". I've been trying to explain linkage but have been having trouble, so with your permission, I'll just show them the general part of your explanation next time :)

As for cinder itself... I don't have anything cinder based, but just from a genetic point of view, this really interests me. Will keep a close eye on the thread!
 
I can trace Heart Attack, the very first peppermint stripe, all the way back to his great great great grandmother, Rich Z's WC Key's Corn.

Here's a photo of the daughter of that matriarch- LBR Garnet, and her great great grandson Heart Attack with his 2012 male amel stripe hatchling, H.
 

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Does my explanation make sense to you, Walter and Nanci? I know it sounds crazy but when breeding different localities of corn together it makes sense that there will be minor chromosome variations. We've just never had traits in corns that appear linked. But cinder is linked to one important trait: sex. The sex determining region is expected to be on parts of the Z or W chromosome that CAN'T crossover. If cinder is distance from this region, you will get independent assortment of cinder and sex. But if crossover is suppressed as I think it must be, you will then see linkage of sex and cinder. I've seen studies where different populations of the same species showed crossover suppression because of the genetic differences that were accumulating between them.
 
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