Poll: "Indoctrination" Videos

[jazzgeek]

Given the (shall I say "lively"?) discussion that has taken place in the "Obama Youth?" thread, I thought I'd conduct a small poll.....


I've embedded four video clips into this post:

1. The President's speech on September 8th which was, I presume, the impetus for the "Obama Youth?" thread to begin with (it's 19 minutes in length, so consider yourself warned),
2. The recent "controversial" video of New Jersey schoolchildren singing a song in praise of President Obama,
3. The promotional trailer for the documentary film "Jesus Camp", and
4. A clip from "Jesus Camp" wherein schoolchildren are encouraged to talk to and "bless" a cardboard cutout of then-President George W. Bush.

Here are the clips, in respective order:









My simple poll (with the permutations to affirmatively answer for all three scenarios) asks this question:

Which (if any) of these scenarios would you personally consider to be "indoctrination" of American children?

Thanks in advance. I'm looking forward to the discussion.


Dale

 

[danielle]

Oh Dale this thread is going to need preemptive pandas,lol

I find religious contraband to be as scary as terrorist contraband myself however, in fairness I don't believe in God. I find those last two tapes disgusting, criminal, and sad I can't believe any responsible parent would subject and raise their child like this. To raise your child to be honest, respectful, considerate, giving, and intelligent is one thing, but to ram god and jesus down their throat as the reason they should grow to be all of these things is cultish. Anyone that has taken any time to study the origins of any religion will see religion was spawn when man could not control the acts of their people. It was and is used as a manipulative tool to form societies behaviors because people have and always will lack self control.

Religion is used to categorize, judge, and condemn people, instill fear and shame, and condone acts that go against any religious book you'll ever read. An immoral act for god is okay, and all those that don't believe are going to hell. Watching those sick videos I see extremists, brainwashing, and fueling their immoral fundamental ideologies on innocent children and I can't believe in our modern times people haven't learned to be "good" because its the right thing to do, and not because "god" says so.

To answer your poll Dale obviously the last two videos reek of indoctrination.

 

[jazzgeek]

:roflmao: @ "Preemptive Pandas"!!!

 

[Hypancistrus]

I can tell you which of those scares me the most... and that's the last two.

I did not watch all of Obama's speech, however, what he is really saying to them is something I have been saying for years. Success of our nation's students can be influenced greatly by teachers and parents, but it rests in the hands of our young people. Their decision to pursue education (or not) is what really counts....

 

[Daenerys]

The last two most obviously. The one where the kids were singing about Obama, kind of yes. President Obama's speech didn't seem so bad, I don't see what all the hype was about.

 

[Emanon]

not a fan of any of them but have the most problem with the ones done in public education arena. For no other reason than it is supposed to be neutral and we are told it all the time (being teachers, I am one)

 

[ForkedTung]

The last two are indeed...asking children if they're ready to "die for Jesus" I think the last thing in the world ( according to my understanding of him) that Jesus would want is any children dying for him...gives a whole new meaning to the word fanatic. That speaking-in-tongues to Bush stuff is just ridiculous.

 

[Michael823]

I actually watched "Jesus Camp" months ago, and it scared me beyond belief. There was a part of the camp in which children were literally in tears begging to god for his forgiveness. All I could think of was the parents allowing it, and the future these children will lead.
That boy with the Rat Tail haircut in the video actually seemed like a very bright child with unlimited potential, but it really broke my heart to hear what was being forced upon him. In that small clip showed of him talking about non-Christians, he went on to say how he didn't think they had souls, they were basically dirty and gross, etc... I think 99% of Christians would even deny this, and teach their children far better.

Now in fairness, I believe this poll is like comparing apples to oranges. It would be unfair to compare the two, as this thread kind of comes across as a teaching religion vs political speeches debate. I think religion is a wonderful thing in many ways, and it really helps some parents teach their children to live a more positive life. I believe the Obama speech was intended to do the same. But like any belief there will always be eccentrics, and parents have every right to use discretion as to what they find to be appropriate/inappropriate.

I didn't vote at all, as I don't think the options were entirely telling of anything. I believe the ladder videos were cultist, and the the first two were simply educational. But that is up to every person to decide, and it would be unfair to assume that people who are against the Obama video are Pro Jesus Camp. There is too much in between, and I don't think either or is fair. I also think it leaves people who are against the Obama video in a tough spot, because hey shouldn't be forced to agree with the ladder, simply because they disagree with the first two.

 

[danielle]

Michael don't you think children can be taught to act ethically and positively without God? Thats my point about religion- it is a manipulative tool to shape the actions of man through fear and guilt. Now I know a few non fanatical God lovers so don't anyone think I put all believers in the same category I don't, but parents raise their children not God.

Those camps are sick and detrimental to young minds and far worse than the Obama speach that was changed when all the hype started. Whether children are being taught to worship god or the president both are equally disturbing to me. Children can be well rounded and behaved through good parenting brainwashing shouldn't be necessary

 

[Michael823]

Michael don't you think children can be taught to act ethically and positively without God? Thats my point about religion- it is a manipulative tool to shape the actions of man through fear and guilt. Now I know a few non fanatical God lovers so don't anyone think I put all believers in the same category I don't, but parents raise their children not God.

Those camps are sick and detrimental to young minds and far worse than the Obama speach that was changed when all the hype started. Whether children are being taught to worship god or the president both are equally disturbing to me. Children can be well rounded and behaved through good parenting brainwashing shouldn't be necessary

Well, I was raised without any form of religion, and I turned out alright...

I totally agree with you, and I wasn't trying to come across like that. I just think the Jesus Camp children come far from your normal religious family. I think religion is one way that parents can teach moral character, responsibility, etc... and I do not condemn them for it.
There was also another Christian man in the video, and he interviewed the Jesus Camp counselors on his radio show, and he also took calls about it. He was a very bright man, and said that there was a special place for people who try to manipulate children, and it wasn't pretty. My point is, even fellow Christians will find those videos extreme, so I don't think it can be compared to your average Christian family dynamic.

 

[danielle]

I agree which is why I said I do not lump all believers in any one category just that kids can have morals instilled in them without. Theres a lot to be said for personal accountability

 

[Michael823]

I agree which is why I said I do not lump all believers in any one category just that kids can have morals instilled in them without. Theres a lot to be said for personal accountability

I couldn't agree more. I have never even lived in a house with a bible in it, but moral integrity was always present.

 

[The_Thunderer]

Just an FYI... I'm one of those "believers" that think that video is UBER extreme. I would NOT send my child to that fanatical camp.

 

[danielle]

See Fred isn't a fanatic. I have no problems with people who love god. I have problems with those that use god as a means to act unethically and/or judge those with different beliefs.

 

[Michael823]

See Fred isn't a fanatic. I have no problems with people who love god. I have problems with those that use god as a means to act unethically and/or judge those with different beliefs.

I know that Danielle, and I completely agree. I've had quite a few religious nuts freak out at me because I was so thin as a child, and still am. I have the strongest dislike for people who use their religion as a means to judge some people and manipulate others. I consider myself a relatively spiritual person, but by no means religious. I don't believe in the same god that most religious people believe in, at least not as some physical being. But I do think that we are all here for a reason, and that we all have spirits and moral compasses that guide us through life.

 

[jazzgeek]

I actually watched "Jesus Camp" months ago, and it scared me beyond belief. There was a part of the camp in which children were literally in tears begging to god for his forgiveness. All I could think of was the parents allowing it, and the future these children will lead.
That boy with the Rat Tail haircut in the video actually seemed like a very bright child with unlimited potential, but it really broke my heart to hear what was being forced upon him. In that small clip showed of him talking about non-Christians, he went on to say how he didn't think they had souls, they were basically dirty and gross, etc... I think 99% of Christians would even deny this, and teach their children far better.

Now in fairness, I believe this poll is like comparing apples to oranges. It would be unfair to compare the two, as this thread kind of comes across as a teaching religion vs political speeches debate....

You have a point, Michael. However, when you're injecting a political figure into the religion and are claiming that he was "called/sent by God", then I'll take umbrage, and all bets are off. An imperfect human claiming to know who Yahweh sends is nothing but hubris.

Keep your politics out of my faith, and vice versa.

See Fred isn't a fanatic. I have no problems with people who love god. I have problems with those that use god as a means to act unethically and/or judge those with different beliefs.

And/or use their Deity to advance their political agenda.....


Dale

 

[danielle]

yeah that too Dale

 

[Pruddock]

Just an FYI... I'm one of those "believers" that think that video is UBER extreme. I would NOT send my child to that fanatical camp.

Ditto. We had a group that were radicals at our church and I always just laughed at it and referred to them as "The Ghostbusters". I have to agree that the last two vids were by far the scariest.

 

[tyflier]

The speech...didn't bother me. I didn't see it as indoctrination, though I admit I didn't watch the whole thing. I saw it as a very important political figure trying to instill feelings of self-worth and positivity in children, and giving them the self-esteem to educate themselves, no matter the cost. Especially with the state of our educational system, Is aw it merely as an attempt to inspire the youth of America to better themselves, and our country.

The singing of praises to Obama...I didn't really see it as singing praises to the man, but more of them singing praises to the ideals he professes, at least publicly. I can certainly see where it might scare some people but I think the "praises" were directed towards the ideals and "promises" more than to the man himself. Just my opinion. Still...I don't blame Obama or his administration for a poor choice made by an individual teacher.

Regardless of whether you like or dislike Obama, and regardless of whether you agree with or disagree with his proposals and policies, it's impossible to deny that he is one of the most important political figures of recent times, for many different reasons. That in itself is bound to draw adoration from some and hate from others.

The last two videos I firmly believe are extreme examples of religious indoctrination. It's as bad or worse than any cult that has ever been publiciczed, in my opinion. Those kids are the ones that will feel justified in killing dozens, if not hundreds, of innocent people by bombing clinics and Planned Parenthood locations, and Women's Health Centers, as abominations and houses of evil. They are the ones that will be sitting atop book suppository buildings, taking pot-shots at homosexual rallies or "hippie fests" at some National University. And they will be martyred by their religious peers.

With that said, I do not blame Christianity for the abomination of their ideals, nor do I blame Bush for the ignorance of the people in the second video. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the individuals running the camp, and those parents allowing their children to be subjected to such fanatical tirades. I don't blame Bush any more than I would blame the poor children.

So my vote was for #3 only, the bible camps, as indoctrination, simply because, as I said above, I didn't view the song as a worship of Obama, but more of a worship of the positive ideals, such as equality in pay, higher education, and positive community actions. But I can see where it walks a fine line for some people.

 

[The_Thunderer]

Just to make things clear.... I have NO problem with parents teaching their children what they want. They brought them into the world and they have the right to teach their kids as they see fit (within the law). Eg... I don't have a problem with parents who DID send their kids to this camp... that's their right just as I have the right to not send mine.

Another thing... a parent has a right to teach their children, but the government has no right to MY children. I do NOT however, think that a parent should have the right to keep their children from a doctor's care. PRAYER (IMO) can only help (and it can't HURT), but a doctor SHOULD be involved when a child's life is in danger.

I did something to "indoctrinate" my own eldest son. Kevin could HUM every Star Trek series song - and those from a few Star Trek movies in its entirety when he was 2 years old. LOL. He still can! That is probably my biggest offense (according to my wife) than anything I have ever done.