Poll: "Indoctrination" Videos

[jazzgeek]

Another thing... a parent has a right to teach their children, but the government has no right to MY children. I do NOT however, think that a parent should have the right to keep their children from a doctor's care. PRAYER (IMO) can only help (and it can't HURT), but a doctor SHOULD be involved when a child's life is in danger.

Agreed wholeheartedly, Fred. This is precisely why I'll never validate a "science vs. religion" """debate""". They're two different realms of endeavor. Stephen Jay Gould used to say that the purpose of science was to discover the age of the rocks, and the purpose of religion was to discover The Rock Of Ages.

A little over a year ago, there was a situation here in Wisconsin wherein a young girl died - of diabetic shock - because the parents refused to get medical treatment (An insulin shot!), and thought that "praying over her" would "cure" her.

I was infuriated.

I did something to "indoctrinate" my own eldest son. Kevin could HUM every Star Trek series song - and those from a few Star Trek movies in its entirety when he was 2 years old. LOL. He still can! That is probably my biggest offense (according to my wife) than anything I have ever done.

I'm sure Kevin will live long an---nahhhh, too easy!


Dale

 

[tyflier]

Just to make things clear.... I have NO problem with parents teaching their children what they want. They brought them into the world and they have the right to teach their kids as they see fit (within the law). Eg... I don't have a problem with parents who DID send their kids to this camp... that's their right just as I have the right to not send mine.

Another thing... a parent has a right to teach their children, but the government has no right to MY children. I do NOT however, think that a parent should have the right to keep their children from a doctor's care. PRAYER (IMO) can only help (and it can't HURT), but a doctor SHOULD be involved when a child's life is in danger.

I did something to "indoctrinate" my own eldest son. Kevin could HUM every Star Trek series song - and those from a few Star Trek movies in its entirety when he was 2 years old. LOL. He still can! That is probably my biggest offense (according to my wife) than anything I have ever done.

I agree whoelheartedly. Just as I am within my rights to raise my daughter and iondoctrinate her the way I see fit, so are other parents. Your kids, your responsibility. Your responsibility...your decisions to make.

And I've indoctrinated my daughter with "Ring of Fire" by Johnny Cash. She walks around singing it all the time...

 

[The_Thunderer]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Fred. This is precisely why I'll never validate a "science vs. religion" """debate""". They're two different realms of endeavor. Stephen Jay Gould used to say that the purpose of science was to discover the age of the rocks, and the purpose of religion was to discover The Rock Of Ages.

A little over a year ago, there was a situation here in Wisconsin wherein a young girl died - of diabetic shock - because the parents refused to get medical treatment (An insulin shot!), and thought that "praying over her" would "cure" her.

I was infuriated.

THAT is the stuff that INFURIATES (good word, Dale) me as well. THAT is idiocy to the extreme.

I'm sure Kevin will live long an---nahhhh, too easy!


Dale

ROFLOL! I KNEW someone was gonna post that! LOL.

 

[Ricky87]

I did something to "indoctrinate" my own eldest son. Kevin could HUM every Star Trek series song - and those from a few Star Trek movies in its entirety when he was 2 years old. LOL. He still can! That is probably my biggest offense (according to my wife) than anything I have ever done.

Six Hail-Mary's and seven Harry Potter books stat...That poor, poor child!.

 

[tricksterpup]

now that the pandas are out of the way..
I am gonna sit back and light up a smoke and just watch

 

[vetusvates]

FWIW, I am a christian believer (which is really none of your business ). I live a complex life in a comlex world,...and it all sync's...for me.
Note, I am not content with the literal or the superficial, I want to get down deep in the layers of things...but that is just me.
And that, or what you are or are not, believe or don't believe, may likely never come up as we embark on a friendship.

Regarding the last two videos...like I've said before...oh, woe is me what men have done over the ages in the name of "God".

I marked "All of the Above". If I had children, I personally would have a problem with ANY politico, pre- or post-election, lecturing them. Politicians come with agendas, no ifs, ands, or buts about it...blatant or subtle...there is an agenda to every word they say and every step they make and every trip they take. They are not academics, not philosophers, and are by no means fonts or encyclopedias of ethics. To say the very least.

Example : Gaius Julius Caesar. Intellectual man. Brilliant "Commentaries" (a great writer). Military tactician AND politician extraordinaire.
Romans one moment were so smitten by his personality and accomplishments, that in a fever they wanted to make him dictator for life, or king.
The next moment feverishly and publicly stabbed him to death.
Moral of the story : Fickle is the electorate.

Read a child a book...and you may or may not entertain him.
Buy a child some books...and he will learn what kind of books you like to buy.
Give a child a library...the bigger the better...and you lay the world at his feet.

 

[airenlow]

I marked "All of the Above". If I had children, I personally would have a problem with ANY politico, pre- or post-election, lecturing them.

Great post Eric! This pretty much summed up my reasoning for choosing the same option.

 

[jazzgeek]

Give a child a library...the bigger the better...and you lay the world at his feet.

.....which will be without shoes as he runs around unattended, screaming and being obnoxious because he's bored.

At least that's what Izzy told me.


Dale

 

[vetusvates]

.....which will be without shoes as he runs around unattended, screaming and being obnoxious because he's bored.

At least that's what Izzy told me.

Dale

Well, I didn't say I was staying. Shoving him in, with a sack lunch, and locking the place would be just fine.

Kind of off topic, but isn't it kind of refreshing and relaxing to prop your feet up, and chill at ease with friends, and talk about the universe from multifarious points of view?
Or have I just fallen out of a tree on my head?

Great thread, Dale.

 

[snakemom1961]

Having been raised a christian. I do have a problem with having religion of any kind being thrown down my kids throats. Also being raised christian I rebelled at being forced to go to church every sunday because none of my friends went to the church my family did. I think that in part, made it a reason I chose not to raise my children "in the church".
Now, since my hubby and I spoke of christ(he was much better educated then I was) while my kids were growing up. They all got the basic education and it was my hope they would either choose to go the path we were brought up with or choose their own path.
My 2 daughters have chosen the path of Christ and attend church almost every weekend(unless they are working). And live their lives in a way they know God would want them to.
My son chooses not to. is he atheist? I have no clue, but I know that his father and I planted the seeds for him to know there is a GOD and GOD will always look over him whether he chooses to show up in a building designated to hearing GODS word or if he chooses to practice gods teachings on his own.

 

[diamondlil]

I'm dead tired, having got in from my nightshift, and I managed to watch all of Obama's speech without getting at all alarmed. It seemed a pretty good exhortation to encourage children to value their own potentials and opportunities in life through education.
The other three videos creeped me out completely, and I didn't watch any of them all the way through. I think the Bush cutout (especially as I was vaguely wondering why the woman was manhandling a president) is going to haunt my sleep now.......thanks Dale, just what I needed in my head before going to bed!

 

[Hypancistrus]

Keep your politics out of my faith, and vice versa....And/or use their Deity to advance their political agenda.....

Amen to that.

I do agree that parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit. But let's stretch this a little....

The lady in the Jesus Camp video compares what she is doing to what the extremist Muslim's do... and we all know that they prey on children and young people, offering them martyrdom and fame in exchange for their lives. If she wants to indoctrinate or convince these children to become martyrs in the same manner as Muslim youth do, is that really okay? If she wants to train these children to wear bombs and blow up abortion clinics, is that her right? If the parents of these children will see their child as successful if he walks along a Pride parade with a semi-automatic rifle, blasting gay folks, is that a parents right?

Where do you draw the line?

 

[tyflier]

Amen to that.

I do agree that parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit. But let's stretch this a little....

The lady in the Jesus Camp video compares what she is doing to what the extremist Muslim's do... and we all know that they prey on children and young people, offering them martyrdom and fame in exchange for their lives. If she wants to indoctrinate or convince these children to become martyrs in the same manner as Muslim youth do, is that really okay? If she wants to train these children to wear bombs and blow up abortion clinics, is that her right? If the parents of these children will see their child as successful if he walks along a Pride parade with a semi-automatic rifle, blasting gay folks, is that a parents right?

Where do you draw the line?

You can't draw the line until a crime is committed. You can't stop people from having beliefs as we have religious freedom in this country. Invariably, with religious freedom of expression comes fanaticism.

What it comes down to...there is nothing illegal going on at Jesus Camp...at least nothing we can see in the videos.

No...it's not OK to teach your children to hate those that are different than you. No...it's not OK to teach your children that anyone with different beliefs is unworthy of your respect, and undeserving of life on this planet. But it's not illegal.

You can't prevent people from treaching their children whatever they want to teach their own children. Certainly religious zealots and fanatics are not the only people in this country that are teaching their children deplorable things as a way of life. But there isn't anything that can be done about it until a crime is committed.

The biggest problem with that is that these poor kids are going to end up committing a heinous crime in the name of God, and going to prison for a long time...and they feel completely justified, because that is how they were raised.

It certainly would be easier to control the teachings of the churches and prevent this mindset from being instilled in the children of this country. But that goes against everything this country stands for. That means, unfortuantely, that these kids are going to suffer because of what they've been taught, at some point in their lives, whether it be through a sudden realization that their line of thinking is very narrow minded, and definitely in the deep minority...or by committing a massive crime in the name of their religion. Either way, it isn't going to be very pretty for them...

 

[Nova_C]

What we can do, though, is marginalize fanaticism where we find it.

Every time we allow a 'debate' to occur, such as allowing intelligent design into the public school curriculum, we legitimize the extremists by giving credence to their words. If we want to limit the ill effects of religious indoctrination then at some point we have to realize the only answer is "No." There can't be any ifs or buts.

Vetusvates, I'd just like to note that it's not only politicians that have agendas when they speak. Really, everyone who stands up to give a speech has an agenda. Some are more dangerous than others, but no one is truly completely objective.

 

[ForkedTung]

Her's some more "indoctination" for the "Great" job the Bush administration did for Katrina!:

Our country’s stood beside us
People have sent us aid.
Katrina could not stop us, our hopes will never fade.
Congress, Bush and FEMA
People across our land
Together have come to rebuild us and we join them hand-in-hand!

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/17/katrina-song/

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2213869/obama_song_controversy_and_katrina.html?cat=2


Laura Bush and Newt actually endorse the "Obama Youth" speech...imagine that, some common sense amid all the bipartisan backbiting:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/was...-kids-gee-indoctrination-must-be-working.html

 

[vetusvates]

What we can do, though, is marginalize fanaticism where we find it.

Every time we allow a 'debate' to occur, such as allowing intelligent design into the public school curriculum, we legitimize the extremists by giving credence to their words. If we want to limit the ill effects of religious indoctrination then at some point we have to realize the only answer is "No." There can't be any ifs or buts.

Vetusvates, I'd just like to note that it's not only politicians that have agendas when they speak. Really, everyone who stands up to give a speech has an agenda. Some are more dangerous than others, but no one is truly completely objective.

Nova, I do not disagree with that at all.
With the following footnote: I do believe (outside of the current group of verbose politicians, etc., that we are discussing) that there are academics, teachers, professors, philosophers, socio-political hermits, etc.,...who can step outside of the clamor and can speak objectively. But by definition, I would never expect one of these aca-tea-pro-phil-so-po-herms to ever stoop to a career in politics.

My mother (none of the above, but primly witty), never liked (nor trusted) anyone who in her estimation 'talked too much'. 'There just wasn't that much [useful] truth to tell.' She is a practical, pragmatic woman....who can speak volumes with an economy of words. (She would be as baffled by loquacious and winding threads as these....as certain tiresomely nit-picking and tediously verbose members would be baffled by her.)

Anyone who makes a life (or even a hobby) of getting up on a podium to speak to crowds, large or small, is suspect in my book. From politicians to televangelists to kitchen gimmick salespeople. "Suspect" means I might process the gist of what they are saying,...to keep,...or discard.
(Even Gandhi, Susan B. Anthony, and Martin Luther King had "agendas", in the formal sense the word,....so I will refrain from any blanket condemnation of people with agendas.)

And remember this......anything socio-political you ever hear from me.....you have dragged it out of me kicking and screaming and resisting all the way.
:roflmao:

 

[Nova_C]

And remember this......anything socio-political you ever hear from me.....you have dragged it out of me kicking and screaming and resisting all the way.
:roflmao:

I don't believe that for a second.

Ultimately, anytime we speak about the things we believe in, these things are being colored by our own experiences in life. People like Martin Luther King made great strides toward the betterment of our society, but they still spoke from the position of a person with subjective experiences.

In fact, it's impossible not to, because as soon as we achieve true objectivity, we lose our humanity. That is, the most effective ways to make the world a better place are immoral. That is why change is such a painful process - we must preserve our own selves while trying to make things better.

 

[vetusvates]

I don't believe that for a second.

Ultimately, anytime we speak about the things we believe in, these things are being colored by our own experiences in life. People like Martin Luther King made great strides toward the betterment of our society, but they still spoke from the position of a person with subjective experiences.

In fact, it's impossible not to, because as soon as we achieve true objectivity, we lose our humanity. That is, the most effective ways to make the world a better place are immoral. That is why change is such a painful process - we must preserve our own selves while trying to make things better.

Nova you are a thinking person and I like that. Albeit sometimes in a dark, stark, harsh way.

Would you expound on the part I bolded?
I think I disagree superficially, but may just agree on a deeper more philosophically sterile, unmerciful, and 'objective' level.

 

[jazzgeek]

As I'm reading the exchanges between you two, I am reminded of something I was told a couple of nights ago.....

Kind of off topic, but isn't it kind of refreshing and relaxing to prop your feet up, and chill at ease with friends, and talk about the universe from multifarious points of view?

Why, yes....yes it is. :cheers:


Dale

 

[vetusvates]

As I'm reading the exchanges between you two, I am reminded of something I was told a couple of nights ago.....

Why, yes....yes it is. :cheers:

Dale

And Dale, it is all on a thread you started. I have handed out too much rep in 24 hour period...etc.,....
:cheers: