Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[SnakeAround]

Pure genius! You said in a few sentences what I have been trying to all along. Glad you came along and you posed some additional thoughts along the way that had great merit as well that I hadn't thought of myself.

Wel thanks Carpe You seem to be the only one around here that thinks the same way as I do so I am glad to help you out

 

[SnakeAround]

Why can cali kings make fertile off spring with corns? Because they share ancestors that once where in the same region and met and mated. Back then they were one species if you add overlapping distribution area to the definition of natural circumstances. The off spring wired out and evolved differently in different area's. But why are these different area's to begin with? Back in the ancestor time the off spring was able to reach all those other areas, so it was practically seen the same area..... but the moment we label them as a species the areas are cut in pieces to and those snakes are said to not be able to meet. If we wait long enough, the same will happen as what happened with the common ancestor's offspring. The world IS one area considering time, especially very long periods of time (which is part of the evolution theory also).

It would be very easy to just use the definition of able to produce fertile off spring (by actual mating perhaps as an extra) to define a species. Nature gave us that definition itself but some people think they now better and actually feel sick thinking of what they call hybrids. How does that make sense at all????

I do actually think that a horny kign might actually mate with another non king snake if they met. They also eat kings if they are not horny, but don't if they are horny. Why should they not mate instead of eat when they are horny and meet a non king snake? The whole eating argument is invalid.

 

[fyrefocks]

I haven't read such nonsense since the last time I picked up a copy of the Old T.

 

[SnakeAround]

You're free to have that opinion but I honestly don't see why it's as much nonsense as the old T. or the Bible as a whole to be honest. I think me and Carp just have a another view on the same subject, supported by sound logic. If human kind would not exist, there would be no species definition of snakes to begin with. Just a bunch of snakes on one planet which can or cannot mate or produce fertile offspring, you cannot deny that. Through time any gene in any snake can be spread around on that planet in theory as long as snakes mate and move around. Since they do so, the genes are spread wether we think they belong to species or subspecies or hybrids or dugadoos. If offspring is not fertile, that line will stop spreading. It's just what happens, no more no less. We can label that what ever we want, but infertile off spring is in time the only thing that stops genes from spreading, so why would it be so weird to use that as a definition? According to some links Carpe posted, actually some scientist do so.... still nonsense off course...

 

[diamondlil]

Didn't one of your kings get to show exactly what it thought of one of your corns a while back though, Bar? After that, would you seriously want to test your theory by pairing it with one of your corns this breeding season, without taping the mouth shut?

 

[rich333]

Oh Snap!! Ouch!!!!

Bet that leaves a mark!

 

[diamondlil]

I'm not being nasty. I cohab my adult corn pairs for the mating season. Would anyone try cohabbing a corn and a king mating pair for a few weeks, seeing as 'they're the same species'?

 

[SnakeAround]

I'm not being nasty. I cohab my adult corn pairs for the mating season. Would anyone try cohabbing a corn and a king mating pair for a few weeks, seeing as 'they're the same species'?

I'm ok with you mentioning that accident that happened to my female corn, Janine, I've known you long enough over here to know how to take that from you.

Of course I'm not gonna put a corn and a king together withut any supervision for any amount of time to avoid the risk the corn is eaten, but if that's part of the definition: my female king actually wanted to eat my male king when I wanted to mate them, because she was not horny.... she IMMEDIATELY grabbed him by the head and started pulling when I wanted to put him in with her. So I think the whole eating or not eating argument is not valid. It says zit about them being the same species or not. She just cares about if they are small enough to eat.

And as I said, they only might not eat each other if they are horny.... what I plan to do this year: if she seems to be horny from attention of my larger king male, which she does not attempt to eat as I tried that also because he is larger than her, I'll put in my smaller king male whilst ready to get him out if she does attack him.

Also I don't say that kings and corns are the same species, I just say that they are both snakes and they can reproduce and the offsprign is fertile, which according to a definition that is used by some scientists too, does not make the offspring a hybrid. Wether they are the same species or not according to the clasiffication system, does not matter in this view. That system is ignored, just because we can and there is no law saying we cannot

 

[diamondlil]

I'm ok with you mentioning that accident that happened to my female corn, Janine, I've known you long enough over here to know how to take that from you.

Of course I'm not gonna put a corn and a king together withut any supervision for any amount of time to avoid the risk the corn is eaten, but if that's part of the definition: my female king actually wanted to eat my male king when I wanted to mate them, because she was not horny.... she IMMEDIATELY grabbed him by the head and started pulling when I wanted to put him in with her. So I think the whole eating or not eating argument is not valid. It says zit about them being the same species or not. She just cares about if they are small enough to eat.

And as I said, they only might not eat each other if they are horny.... what I plan to do this year: if she seems to be horny from attention of my larger king male, which she does not attempt to eat as I tried that also because he is larger than her, I'll put in my smaller king male whilst ready to get him out if she does attack him.

But I have NEVER heard of non-receptive adult corns attempting to eat each other when they are paired up. They either court or ignore each other in my experience. No fighting, no predatory moves, ever. I pair up couples for a month or so. Some I even feed in the same viv. Would any keeper ever do the same with a pair of kings, let alone a corn/king pair they are attempting to HYBRIDISE?

 

[Nanci]

This thread reminds me of this song:

 

[SnakeAround]

But I have NEVER heard of non-receptive adult corns attempting to eat each other when they are paired up. They either court or ignore each other in my experience. No fighting, no predatory moves, ever. I pair up couples for a month or so. Some I even feed in the same viv. Would any keeper ever do the same with a pair of kings, let alone a corn/king pair they are attempting to HYBRIDISE?

I did hear about one case actually, when the breeder left the room to take a phone call. But how is that relevant to the subject? Kings eat kings if they are not horny, corns don't. So?

 

[diamondlil]

I did hear about one case actually, when the breeder left the room to take a phone call. But how is that relevant to the subject? Kings eat kings if they are not horny, corns don't. So?

Really? Two fully adult corns?
Behavioural differences as a barrier to interspecies breeding? Corns and Kings are not the same.

 

[SnakeAround]

Really, I did not get that viewing angle. I think they eat other snakes because they need food and it worked out well after trying. And, as I said before, kings eat kings too.... that proves it is not to prevent inter species crossing. I also think that nature does not take measures to prevent interspecies breeding to begin with. Evolution is not intelligent, it just happens because of random appearing mutations and slightly differening features between individuals. Even the infertile offspring is not a measure to prevent that. It just happens that the offspring is infertile because some genes do not match or are defect or whatever. But for me it's a logical event to use in the definition of a species, if any definition should be made to begin with.

Further, yellow rat snakes do not eat corns either.... so it would only apply to kings and king cobra's I think IF it was relevant.

And yes I have read that a female adult corn ate the mate it was supposed to breed to. I don't know about his size compared to her though.

 

[diamondlil]

I wasn't claiming any intelligent design, but there are barriers to different species mating in the form of mating displays, fertile periods, mating preferences, that are not purely physical. If those differences are artificially overcome, you can get fertile offspring that would never occur in nature. That, for me, indicates hybridisation, when artificial means (like taping a king's mouth shut) are used by people to get sucessful mating across species barriers.

 

[tsst]

I want to breed a bloodred corn to a mexican black king. Then I want to breed their progeny to a bumble bee BP. I hope to have black and bloodred super bees. I don't know genetics but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Wish me luck.

 

[Outcast]

Why do these threads always turn into an "I'm right because I like hybrids/NO! I am right because I hate hybrids" type argument?
Here is a real answer to the main question in this thread, You will never get a standardized corn snake, because no one can agree on what a standard corn snake is. There are corn snake localities that are separated by distance and mountains from others, eventually they would evolve into their own species, but we came along and started breeding them back into our other corn snake populations. I guess you could technically say that they were well on their way to being subspecies until humans arrived on scene with a love for breeding animals.

I do not see why either side is right... You have the group that screams "Hybrids are abominations!" Then you have the group that screams "No they aren't, they are works of art!". Neither side will ever agree, In fact, I can't even see them agreeing to disagree on this subject.
To the OP, I know it has to have been said before, but this subject comes up quite a bit, and it always turns away from the original intent of the thread.

Honestly, I grew up knowing that they definition of hybrid was two species being mated together, producing infertile young... It wasn't until recently that I began to learn other definitions for the word.

So people hybridize their animals... So what! People have been doing it for thousands of years, if not longer. Its just like the inbreeding argument, in my opinion. It happens. It may be unfortunate, and I agree that people should label their hybrids as such, because some people do not want any part of that. But, so many people put the hybrid label to anything that looks different out there... Isn't that an issue that we are having right now with Tessera (again), and Palmetto?
Yet, there are people who's word I trust stating that these are pure corns. I will take them at their word and believe it until proven otherwise.

 

[SnakeAround]

I wasn't claiming any intelligent design, but there are barriers to different species mating in the form of mating displays, fertile periods, mating preferences, that are not purely physical. If those differences are artificially overcome, you can get fertile offspring that would never occur in nature. That, for me, indicates hybridisation, when artificial means (like taping a king's mouth shut) are used by people to get sucessful mating across species barriers.

Ok, I see what you mean, they just developed in time. Your arguments are surely valid and also worth considering as a definition. Just what is a species barrier? How many times does a cross need to occur in nature to say there is no barrier? Is a pet snake released in the wild part of that nature or not? If a burm from the Everglades population meets a burn from the original area the species lives, in a zoo? Further, I do think we have hardly seen all animals in nature, who says there no crosses we have not seen but do exist? So, if we do these crosses and they mate voluntarily, are they hybrids or not? Or do we assume if ranges overlap and there are no known barriers like mating season or such, cmating does happen between species?

I will just let my buyers know what I know about my snakes and label them hybrids only if I actually know they are because they are known to be crossed to another species (as defined by the calssification system). I call corsses between subspecies intergrades. People are free to label otherwise with the information I give them about the snakes.

 

[SnakeAround]

Why do these threads always turn into an "I'm right because I like hybrids/NO! I am right because I hate hybrids" type argument?
Here is a real answer to the main question in this thread, You will never get a standardized corn snake, because no one can agree on what a standard corn snake is. There are corn snake localities that are separated by distance and mountains from others, eventually they would evolve into their own species, but we came along and started breeding them back into our other corn snake populations. I guess you could technically say that they were well on their way to being subspecies until humans arrived on scene with a love for breeding animals.

I do not see why either side is right... You have the group that screams "Hybrids are abominations!" Then you have the group that screams "No they aren't, they are works of art!". Neither side will ever agree, In fact, I can't even see them agreeing to disagree on this subject.
To the OP, I know it has to have been said before, but this subject comes up quite a bit, and it always turns away from the original intent of the thread.

Honestly, I grew up knowing that they definition of hybrid was two species being mated together, producing infertile young... It wasn't until recently that I began to learn other definitions for the word.

So people hybridize their animals... So what! People have been doing it for thousands of years, if not longer. Its just like the inbreeding argument, in my opinion. It happens. It may be unfortunate, and I agree that people should label their hybrids as such, because some people do not want any part of that. But, so many people put the hybrid label to anything that looks different out there... Isn't that an issue that we are having right now with Tessera (again), and Palmetto?
Yet, there are people who's word I trust stating that these are pure corns. I will take them at their word and believe it until proven otherwise.

I don't see a hate versus love discussion, I see a discussion about the definition of a hybrid, as the poster intended.

 

[airenlow]

I can't find a single picture of a w/c corn X Eastern/FL king. If they don't even breed with their local kings, then why do we think they travel 2,000 miles West to find receptive Cali kings?

 

[Outcast]

I don't see a hate versus love discussion, I see a discussion about the definition of a hybrid, as the poster intended.

I may just be cynical, but look closer at the posts, and you will see it.