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Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

After how many generations of "pure" breeding would say a snake is pure corn?

  • As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me

    Votes: 4 8.2%

  • After 2 generations

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • After 5 generations

    Votes: 5 10.2%

  • After 10 generations

    Votes: 7 14.3%

  • After 15 generations

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • After 20 generations

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • After 25 generations or more (if more, specify which number in the thread)

    Votes: 2 4.1%

  • If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid.

    Votes: 30 61.2%
  • Total voters
    49
Carpe Serpentis said:
Yeah, it blows my mind too when I stop and think about how wonderful life is and how things we take as being so concrete are really just our ways of trying to put everything into a nice little box so we can understand them better. To think that simple gene flow from one species to another happens and enables one species however diluted to travel clear across the continent amazes me. Reduced gene flow yes, but not total isolation. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VCCausesSpeciation.shtml
Click to expand...
From Your Link:
2. Reduction of Gene Flow
However, speciation might also happen in a population with no specific extrinsic barrier to gene flow. Imagine a situation in which a population extends over a broad geographic range, and mating throughout the population is not random. Individuals in the far west would have zero chance of mating with individuals in the far eastern end of the range. So we have reduced gene flow, but not total isolation. This may or may not be sufficient to cause speciation. Speciation would probably also require different selective pressures at opposite ends of the range, which would alter gene frequencies in groups at different ends of the range so much that they would not be able to mate if they were reunited.

This link is about the formation of new species, not about gene flow between species and hybridization. This link has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
You have not been able to grasp logical responses from other posters, so sarcasm was worth the try.

I honestly hoped you were joking with your wild hawk and cross country hybrid marathon, but I see you are not.
Click to expand...

That is an assumption you are making without clarifying so in effect a statement with no weight.
 
jkgeorge said:
From Your Link:
2. Reduction of Gene Flow
However, speciation might also happen in a population with no specific extrinsic barrier to gene flow. Imagine a situation in which a population extends over a broad geographic range, and mating throughout the population is not random. Individuals in the far west would have zero chance of mating with individuals in the far eastern end of the range. So we have reduced gene flow, but not total isolation. This may or may not be sufficient to cause speciation. Speciation would probably also require different selective pressures at opposite ends of the range, which would alter gene frequencies in groups at different ends of the range so much that they would not be able to mate if they were reunited.

This link is about the formation of new species, not about gene flow between species and hybridization. This link has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make.
Click to expand...

Reduced gene flow, but not total isolation.....
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
The bottom line is both of my proposals are possible and thats all they need to be for my logic to stand on firm footing. One of my proposals is not only possible, it has happened and why has it happened? Because we must concede that along geographical ranges hybrids do and have been formed since life first began. You don't have to like my logic, you don't have to agree with my beliefs.
Click to expand...

Please site examples of which one.

I have never heard of cali kings and corns breeding in the wild.

Not sure I have even heard of kings and corns breeding in the wild.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
The bottom line is both of my proposals are possible and thats all they need to be for my logic to stand on firm footing. One of my proposals is not only possible, it has happened and why has it happened? Because we must concede that along geographical ranges hybrids do and have been formed since life first began. You don't have to like my logic, you don't have to agree with my beliefs.
Click to expand...

Prove to me Lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae and Elaphe guttata have bred under natural conditions in the wild.

Your footing is shaky, flawed and far from firm.

You don't have to like my logic, you don't have to agree with my beliefs. But everything I've said is backed by tangible and quantifiable evidence. There was no hawk, no second shooter and no king snake on the grassy knoll.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
So long as there is any flow then there is the possibility of corn snake genes finding their way into that stream.
Click to expand...

We are not talking about genes. You said a corn snake, not just it's genes.

Proof please.

Carpe Serpentis said:
In fact, the very fact that we can breed them together proves that it is possible. Suppose two opposite sex corn snakes are dropped in california. Suppose that copulation is about to happen and then a hawk swoops down and eats one and a king happens to approach also ready and eager from a similar mishap. It could happen. Is it likely to happen is another story.
Click to expand...
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
So long as there is any flow then there is the possibility of corn snake genes finding their way into that stream.
Click to expand...

From Your Link:
2. Reduction of Gene Flow
However, speciation might also happen in a population with no specific extrinsic barrier to gene flow. Imagine a situation in which a population extends over a broad geographic range, and mating throughout the population is not random. Individuals in the far west would have zero chance of mating with individuals in the far eastern end of the range. So we have reduced gene flow, but not total isolation. This may or may not be sufficient to cause speciation. Speciation would probably also require different selective pressures at opposite ends of the range, which would alter gene frequencies in groups at different ends of the range so much that they would not be able to mate if they were reunited.

Here the key is POPULATION. Population: collection of inter-breeding organisms of a particular species.
 
Hold on. Chip made a great choice many pages back.

There is no point in arguing with a broken record spouting flawed circular logic that changes depending on which piece is picked apart.

I have no issue with anyone's beliefs, but when you try to tell me a hawk created a Jungle Corn in nature, then I draw a line. There is no way that is possible. This is not a metaphysical religious belief issue. It's science.

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

You can believe till the cows come home that the earth is square, no one can change your belief. They are yours to have.

The things you are claiming not possible.

Sadly at this point it seems like you are just stupidly contradicting posts for the sake of replying with a contradiction.

Before you claim I'm making an assumption, as you so often have, I am not. I am using facts directly from your words and patterns, nothing is being taken for granted nor is it being presumed.

Every logical shred of evidence we post, you attempt to refute with something even more far fetched than the last claim, so the only logical conclusion is to follow the time tested logic of Mr. Mark Twain.

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain

/Unsubscribe

Good luck with your theories.
 
"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions."

If they can interbreed then they are members of the same species in my book. If they evolved to do this or if god created them in kind to be able to breed to each other then they are a species. If we say they evolved from a common ancestor then they already share dna. If we say they have not evolved to the point that they can no longer interbreed, then we must concede that they can in fact still breed together and are thus still a single species. If we say god created them in kind to be able to breed to each other then god must have had a reason to ensure that this could happen as he is omniscient and omnipotent and could have chosen to do otherwise if he/she wished. Either way you slice it. As for population, I look at a landmass that is connected with members all capable of interbreeding, forming intergrades and hybrids, etc. as a population.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
If we say god created them in kind to be able to breed to each other then god must have had a reason to ensure that this could happen as he is omniscient and omnipotent and could have chosen to do otherwise if he/she wished.
Click to expand...
I enjoy a spirited scientific debate.......and for the most part I can at least appreciate the view point of others......but at this point I'm out. Good luck.
JOSH
 
 
jkgeorge said:
I enjoy a spirited scientific debate.......and for the most part I can at least appreciate the view point of others......but at this point I'm out. Good luck.
JOSH
Click to expand...

I appreciated hearing your point of view Josh as well as many others that did not have to resort to sarcasm or belittling to try and get their point across even then if a valid point was made I did take it in. In the end though, we still don't have a standard and we still don't have a consensus on just how to prove a standard. If indeed this is the end of this debate. Looking at the long threads I've seen on this topic on this forum, I'd say the debate will never end and people will breed what they wish to breed in the manner they wish to breed. Some may try to brow beat others into seeing their way with sarcasm or belittling comments and others will engage in "intelligent" debate to explain their point of view and everything in between I'm sure.
 
Ten pages of debate and *still* only 35 people have actually given enough of a toss to vote.
 
bitsy said:
Ten pages of debate and *still* only 35 people have actually given enough of a toss to vote.
Click to expand...

Yes, I find that funny that only 35 felt strongly enough to let their feelings be known on the subject. One could argue that perhaps many did not answer the poll as they did not want to be browbeaten for their stance on a subject or any number of other assumptions. It would be interesting to say the least to know why as I always look at the bottom of a thread to see who is watching and simply not posting and there were quite a few watching that were not voting or participating in the thread at all.
 
bitsy said:
Ten pages of debate and *still* only 35 people have actually given enough of a toss to vote.
Click to expand...

Fortunately there's not a deadline on when the voting booth closes.
I'm still gathering info before I let my emotions make a choice.
It would be easier if a learned behavior (such as hating hybrids) was in control.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range maps only show me an area zoomed out.

I started to wonder if draining of wetlands of Florida (and other places) has caused loss of habitat for P. obsoleta ssp, which might then have to go looking for food elsewhere.

And then I thought about suppression of fire over the last 60 years. Fire would burn down the grasslands and brush in pine land and natural prairie lands, trigger germination of annual and biennial brush species which provided food and shelter for quail. Because fire was suppressed for 50 years, the species of plants which fed quail went dormant or extinct throughout many parts of Florida. Quail are prolific and become prey for many species. Cornsnake habitat changed. So the cornsnakes would have to go looking for new habitat. As a result is it possible that mankind's altering of the natural ecology and habitats has caused species which used to fill specific niches to meet up with each other more frequently? http://www.talltimbers.org/gamebird.html
 
airenlow said:
On that note...
Click to expand...

Yes....

On this note.

My two cents worth.

Considering God Himself is Alien...He's not of this world...he created it...remember...and he created all things great and small..remember...

He created man....in his own likeness....

we are ALL Hybrids!!!

With that being said.....

Just because two beings can breed...doesn't mean they should.....

Just visit your local wal-mart....you'll understand what i mean.
 
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