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Rumor I heard about Tesseras (sp?)
- Thread starter carnivorouszoo
- Start date
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Hi Everyone!
Looks like I pretty much missed the debate. I have been at the Pensacola show all weekend. But I do want to make a couple of points to live on for whoever researches this thread someday.
I have zero experience with tessera, so won't give any opinions on those. But I was in on or near the beginning with bloods and sunkissed okeetees, so do want to mention their origins, although I have done so already in the past. Other posts have already discussed the selective breeding of the diffusion trait of bloods, and how it has been strengthened through selection, and divorced from the red color in granites, pewters, etc. Very good posts! So I will mention only origins.
Of course, ANY corn collected from the wild COULD have "mixed blood" - no way to be sure unless you do some sort of DNA test. However, I feel it is VERY, VERY UNLIKELY that most wild corns are hybrids, and I personally consider a wild caught corn pure unless I have some real reason to suspect it is a hybrid. However, it is not uncommon to find adult w.c. corns with longitudinal striping. That is especially true of w.c. okeetees (as well as other localities), although we (breeders) have selected away from that, and it is rarely seen in c.b. babies. So longitudinal striping, especially in a w.c. corn, does not have any bearing on genes from ratsnakes, IMO. There would have to be other traits to make me suspicious.
Bill and I were at Ed Leach's house back in the early '80s when his bloodred project (which he called "corn gold" at the time - bad name, IMHO) was only a few generations old. As far as I remember (it was a LONG time ago!), he still had some of the orginal, w.c. adults at his house to show us. Bill has been an avid, well experienced, Florida field collector since he was 15 years old. He did not see anything in the w.c. bloods or their offspring that made him suspect they were hybrids. And from Ed's descriptions and records, there was nothing to make us suspect any hybrids. Snake breeding was fairly new back then, and corn hybrids were not generally produced at that time, although I won't say "never". So as far as the origins of bloodred that I personally witnessed, coupled with what was already discussed about their subsequent breeding results, I am personally convinced about 99.999% that they are not hybrids. Of course, it is always possible that some breeder someplace has bred a blood with something else, but I am talking about the origin of bloods in general.
As to sunkissed: All of my early okeetees were bought or traded from breeders who either caught them or bought them from people who caught them back in the '70s and '80s. (of course, I have added other bloodlines later, AFTER the first sunkissed were produced). Again, it is POSSIBLE that Mother Nature pulled a fast one, but highly unlikely. And it is POSSIBLE that one of my friends back then lied. BUT - back in the '70 and '80s, colubrid keepers and breeders were a MUCH smaller and more close knit group than now. There was no Internet or Reptiles Magazine - just telephones, herp societies, and visits from friends. A very different world! Hybrids were not common, and probably would have been far more expensive than "just" a plain ol' okeetee corn! So I am about 99.999% sure that the original sunkissed (can't say what any particular breeder might have done SINCE then) were pure corns.
I can't think of anything else to add that hasn't been said. I just want the record straight concerning the origins of the animals that I have direct knowledge of. Hope that helps, at least in that aspect of the discussion.
Looks like I pretty much missed the debate. I have been at the Pensacola show all weekend. But I do want to make a couple of points to live on for whoever researches this thread someday.
I have zero experience with tessera, so won't give any opinions on those. But I was in on or near the beginning with bloods and sunkissed okeetees, so do want to mention their origins, although I have done so already in the past. Other posts have already discussed the selective breeding of the diffusion trait of bloods, and how it has been strengthened through selection, and divorced from the red color in granites, pewters, etc. Very good posts! So I will mention only origins.
Of course, ANY corn collected from the wild COULD have "mixed blood" - no way to be sure unless you do some sort of DNA test. However, I feel it is VERY, VERY UNLIKELY that most wild corns are hybrids, and I personally consider a wild caught corn pure unless I have some real reason to suspect it is a hybrid. However, it is not uncommon to find adult w.c. corns with longitudinal striping. That is especially true of w.c. okeetees (as well as other localities), although we (breeders) have selected away from that, and it is rarely seen in c.b. babies. So longitudinal striping, especially in a w.c. corn, does not have any bearing on genes from ratsnakes, IMO. There would have to be other traits to make me suspicious.
Bill and I were at Ed Leach's house back in the early '80s when his bloodred project (which he called "corn gold" at the time - bad name, IMHO) was only a few generations old. As far as I remember (it was a LONG time ago!), he still had some of the orginal, w.c. adults at his house to show us. Bill has been an avid, well experienced, Florida field collector since he was 15 years old. He did not see anything in the w.c. bloods or their offspring that made him suspect they were hybrids. And from Ed's descriptions and records, there was nothing to make us suspect any hybrids. Snake breeding was fairly new back then, and corn hybrids were not generally produced at that time, although I won't say "never". So as far as the origins of bloodred that I personally witnessed, coupled with what was already discussed about their subsequent breeding results, I am personally convinced about 99.999% that they are not hybrids. Of course, it is always possible that some breeder someplace has bred a blood with something else, but I am talking about the origin of bloods in general.
As to sunkissed: All of my early okeetees were bought or traded from breeders who either caught them or bought them from people who caught them back in the '70s and '80s. (of course, I have added other bloodlines later, AFTER the first sunkissed were produced). Again, it is POSSIBLE that Mother Nature pulled a fast one, but highly unlikely. And it is POSSIBLE that one of my friends back then lied. BUT - back in the '70 and '80s, colubrid keepers and breeders were a MUCH smaller and more close knit group than now. There was no Internet or Reptiles Magazine - just telephones, herp societies, and visits from friends. A very different world! Hybrids were not common, and probably would have been far more expensive than "just" a plain ol' okeetee corn! So I am about 99.999% sure that the original sunkissed (can't say what any particular breeder might have done SINCE then) were pure corns.
I can't think of anything else to add that hasn't been said. I just want the record straight concerning the origins of the animals that I have direct knowledge of. Hope that helps, at least in that aspect of the discussion.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Thanks Kathy. Can I just ask how common you think mixing in emori was in the past, to improve the size and vigour of hatchlings?
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Can I just ask how common you think mixing in emori was in the past, to improve the size and vigour of hatchlings?
I can only go by what I heard people discussing "way back then", and of course, later, on forums.
Even back in the early days, I don't remember anyone saying they wanted to breed emoryi into corns because of vigor, or any other reason than to change the red factor in creamsicles and later, rootbeers. There have always been large, vigorous lines of pure corns to use for "rootstock", lol! Most breeders wanted to increase red, so emoryi would have been counterproductive, UNLESS they wanted to decrease the red. Color has always been one of the most important factors, so I don't think emoryi is all that prevalent, especially in non - amels that are from selectively bred lines.
Emoryi was considered a subspecies of corn back when most creamsicles were first produced. Just because the taxonomists decided to elevate them doesn't necessarily mean they are less closely related than other rats are to corns. I am certainly not a taxonimst, but I see constant changes that suggest to me the most recent changes may - or may not - be more valid than what was previously in place.
I can only go by what I heard people discussing "way back then", and of course, later, on forums.
Even back in the early days, I don't remember anyone saying they wanted to breed emoryi into corns because of vigor, or any other reason than to change the red factor in creamsicles and later, rootbeers. There have always been large, vigorous lines of pure corns to use for "rootstock", lol! Most breeders wanted to increase red, so emoryi would have been counterproductive, UNLESS they wanted to decrease the red. Color has always been one of the most important factors, so I don't think emoryi is all that prevalent, especially in non - amels that are from selectively bred lines.
Emoryi was considered a subspecies of corn back when most creamsicles were first produced. Just because the taxonomists decided to elevate them doesn't necessarily mean they are less closely related than other rats are to corns. I am certainly not a taxonimst, but I see constant changes that suggest to me the most recent changes may - or may not - be more valid than what was previously in place.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Thanks Kathy. It's nice to have that perspective from someone who can counter some of the claims that are made.