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Nowhere did I suggest that Sarah Palin actually wanted this to happen. I didn't even make that implication, because that's not what I really think. But I'll make my implication explicit--I bring it up because Sarah Palin knowingly used dangerous and ill-conceived rhetoric that has now been turned into reality by "some crazy loon." There may indeed be some connection between that type of rhetoric and what happened today. There may prove not to be. Regardless, it's an interesting coincidence that bears consideration. Additionally, if no one thought there was any possible connection between Sarah Palin's rhetoric and what actually happened today, then the Sarah Palin websites and facebook pages would not be being scrubbed clean of all such rhetoric. But they are. Very actively. Including public discussions on her FB page. Those pages are suddenly cleeeeean as a whistle.
I reported an interesting constellation of facts. You, incidentally, are the one who jumped to making completely unfounded claims in this thread.
Well maybe its the fact that she has been shot, not the fact that she was part of a politically geared campaign, that Sarah Palin took down the rhetoric. If someone fed Sarah Palin to a bear, and we blamed democrats because she is a hunter and they have rhetoric about that, well we would be insane. The sad part is someone pulled a trigger, and I don't know what kind of drama filled :dgrin: storm you are trying to create but you are already trying to find correlation between rhetoric and a fatal killing? Was the 9 year old girl one of Sarah's targets too, Steph?
Oi. It's pretty obvious by reading these posts who is on which end of the political spectrum. It shouldn't matter. People were shot, and many killed, including a 9 y/o child. There is no excuse, and apologists who try to rationalize or minimize the actions of groups or individuals who endorse such tragedies (even if not actively involved in them) are a major part of what is wrong with politics in the U.S.A. today. There is no excuse for maiming and killing people you don't agree with, especially when they're fellow citizens in their (and your) own country.
Rhetoric and fatal stuff often go hand in hand. The loonies hear words that are NOT meant to be taken literally.... and they don't understand that. So they act on it.
Not saying this gives him an excuse but there are allot of Vets that are coming back who are mentally scarred. Some I think have mental issues due to what they have gone through, some worse then others. I know allot of vets get pretty mad when they come home and hear some of the stuff that is trying to be put into affect (Like the New healthcare program) and have the mindset of "We risked my life for you and this is how you thank us?". Many dont take it far and go about it the right way voting and protesting, how ever I could see some possibly "snapping" and taking it to far.
Again I am by NO WAY condoning these actions! I am just stating IF it was a VET I could see how some may snap and go over the edge. My brother in law is a Iraq Vet and he has told me some of the stuff he saw and told me that it has had an affect on him. Would he ever do something like this? NO, but he told me he seen guys completely snap in the field. He said it was pretty scary to see guys hew knew for year suddenly snap.
I know a few vets that have gone off the deep end. In fact for a while there I thought I would end up snapping, luckily I have a wonderful family that, even though they don't know what it is like to go through what I have gone through, they listen and help me work through my anger issues that seem to be cropping up more after my deployments to Afghanistan. In fact I still am plagued with feelings of ill will towards people who disrespect what I fought for. I know how easy it is for someone to snap, because I come close sometimes, I am just glad I have the ability to hold my temper.
If he is a vet, and was going through stuff, he should have sought after help. Being on edge and hyper alert, and misreading signals and hurting someone is very much different than being angry that they voted in a bill that is not American in your eyes (speaking from a vet point of view) and then shooting that person. You can not pin that on PTSD. Though I know some who would be willing to try it.
I have been threatened multiple times, while I was in Afghanistan, by a man who should have seen a doctor a long time ago, in fact that man should have been removed from duty until a psych evaluation was done on him and cleared for duty. But, no one would listen to me. I just hope that one day he see's someone and gets through his anger issues.
As for what has happened, It is horrible for anyone to die before their time and I cannot believe that this kid would do something like this.
. . . and I don't know what kind of drama filled :dgrin: storm you are trying to create but you are already trying to find correlation between rhetoric and a fatal killing? Was the 9 year old girl one of Sarah's targets too, Steph?
David, firstly, my name is Stephanie. We are not buddies, so you do not have my permission to call me by a nickname.
Secondly, I have never once in all of my years as a member of this site tried to create a "drama filled :dgrin: storm," and today was no exception.
I was deeply, deeply saddened by what happened in the place I have called home for 12 years. I spent 6 months landscaping a very big yard of a very fancy house less than a mile from the intersection where 18 people were gunned down today. And I am and have been gravely concerned about the direction that political "discourse" has taken in this country since I returned from the field at the end of 2008, because that direction is fundamentally and insidiously pernicious. How dare you belittle my legitimate and real grief today about politically-motivated terrorism in my home state and my legitimate and rational fear about the potential effects of vitriolic, violence-filled political rhetoric by accusing me of having no other motivation for posting but "trying to create" "a drama filled :dgrin: storm!" How DARE you! You have no understanding of the complexity of these issues, you have no understanding of the gravity of these issues, and you have no understanding of any of what is actually going on in Arizona.
Go back to playing with your cars, little boy. Do not bother to respond. Your response will be only for the masses. I will not hear from you again.
For those who are interested in a very eloquent expression of everything I think about the violent political rhetoric that has characterized the recent politics, take 10 minutes to listen here. I could not state it better, so I won't try.
Sheriff Dupnik of Tucson also spent much of his press conference tonight referring to the same issues. The opinion of at least that law enforcement officer is that the rhetoric of violence must stop, because it has very real consequences, as Arizonans saw today.
The sad part is someone pulled a trigger, and I don't know what kind of drama filled :dgrin: storm you are trying to create but you are already trying to find correlation between rhetoric and a fatal killing? Was the 9 year old girl one of Sarah's targets too, Steph?
I really don't even think you understand what's been said, or what the discussion really is, for that matter. No offense, but these are real lives being affected, and you're showing a terrible immaturity and lack of understanding by using this as a thread to "mark you're territory" on where you stand politically.
We are all American, and everyone from the homeless man on the corner to our very president are equals. This was a loss for us all, and there's no freedom for anyone if our political structure is decided by bloodshed rather than the voice of the people.
David, firstly, my name is Stephanie. We are not buddies, so you do not have my permission to call me by a nickname.
Secondly, I have never once in all of my years as a member of this site tried to create a "drama filled :dgrin: storm," and today was no exception.
I was deeply, deeply saddened by what happened in the place I have called home for 12 years. I spent 6 months landscaping a very big yard of a very fancy house less than a mile from the intersection where 18 people were gunned down today. And I am and have been gravely concerned about the direction that political "discourse" has taken in this country since I returned from the field at the end of 2008, because that direction is fundamentally and insidiously pernicious. How dare you belittle my legitimate and real grief today about politically-motivated terrorism in my home state and my legitimate and rational fear about the potential effects of vitriolic, violence-filled political rhetoric by accusing me of having no other motivation for posting but "trying to create" "a drama filled :dgrin: storm!" How DARE you! You have no understanding of the complexity of these issues, you have no understanding of the gravity of these issues, and you have no understanding of any of what is actually going on in Arizona.
Go back to playing with your cars, little boy. Do not bother to respond. Your response will be only for the masses. I will not hear from you again.
For those who are interesting in a very eloquent expression of everything I think about the violent political rhetoric that has characterized the recent politics, take 10 minutes to listen here. I could not state it better, so I won't try.
Sheriff Dupnik of Tucson also spent much of his press conference tonight referring to the same issues. The opinion of at least that law enforcement officer is that the rhetoric of violence must stop, because it has very real consequences, as Arizonans saw today.
I was going to keep myyself out of this convo because I feel that Politics should be kept between close friends, for obvious reasons but your response to David was just downright rude. I understand your grief. I empathize with you. But you had NO RIGHT to attack him like that or call him "little boy". Now on to the facts:
B) The connection between him and Sarah Palin/conservatives/Tea Party is NON-EXISTANT. But of course, before any of the facts came out, media outlets were quick to cry "Tea party! Sarah Palin's Fault, etc etc". Now it comes out that his friends (if they can be described as such) say he was a "loner, liberal, and philosophical". So please drop any of your rhetoric about how Palin, etc are connected. It just does not hold any weight.
C) I really don't care if you hate Palin, hate republicans, hate any one who disagrees with you. That is your right. Everyone has different beliefs. But please do not blame them for things that they did not do and were not connected to. There is also no reason to jump on David. What he said was a legitimate counterargument.
D) Going from what you've said so far, that you listen/read NPR and that you've blamed Palin (you and the rest of the media) before it turned out she had nothing to do with it, I'm going to surmise that you are of a liberal slant. More power to you because you have the right to believe what you want. That is the greatest strength of America. The right to believe different beliefs, say what we want, and actually be able to hold political debates without being thrown in jail. But please refrain from insulting people and going off like you did in your previous post. Insulting people and belittling them does nothing to aid your cause or strengthen your argument. All that does is make people not want to talk/debate with you. Its not fun debating someone who won't even address the other person's argument but instead insults them.
Let me again say that I am truly saddened by the events that transpired today in Arizona. While I by no means agreed with the congresswoman or even liked her, no one deserves what she endured today. I hope for the best for her and her family and that she quickly improves and is back in Congress.
I was going to keep myyself out of this convo because I feel that Politics should be kept between close friends, for obvious reasons but your response to David was just downright rude. I understand your grief. I empathize with you. But you had NO RIGHT to attack him like that or call him "little boy". Now on to the facts:
. . . .But please refrain from insulting people and going off like you did in your previous post. Insulting people and belittling them does nothing to aid your cause or strengthen your argument. All that does is make people not want to talk/debate with you. Its not fun debating someone who won't even address the other person's argument but instead insults them.
I'm quite good at arguing heated topics without insulting people, as my history here has shown. I wasn't deigning to argue this point with David. This was not a mis-step in my attempting to strengthen my argument. But thanks for the debating tip. I'll file that away.
I think you all need to calm down, this isnt about YOU its about people who lost there lives today and some who were hurt badly. As I said before when that kid pulled the trigger it caused more pain then any thing. The proof is in this thread, people died and people were hurt and here you all are arguing over who is right. WHO CARES whos right, Its not going to bring those people back, its not going to heal those who were injured and most likely scarred for life! Blaming people isnt going to fix this, but finding out who was all involved (not making accusations, the real truth!) will be the only thing that matters! Not your little opinions. So lets not turn this thread into some kind of bashing board. By doing that you are disrespecting those who were shot.
This does not include every one in this thread, but those who are stepping out of line, you know who you are.
I don't think political affiliation, associations or representation, enter into this. The killer seems to have been in an anti-establishment paranoid state for some time now and it looks to me like he just targeted the nearest accessible politician. I don't think he was in any condition to take party politics, arguments or websites into account. He's just off the charts - our reality isn't even going to register with him.
Steph, see how I feel, accusations that you don't believe are fair hurt don't they. You don't seem to understand what I am saying, I am saying we shouldn't harp on political wars, but on the fact that innocent people were shot, not a senator, or a plumber or a little girl, but people were killed and that's a damn shame!
I think this is horrible, and there is no excuse for it. I am not condoning it in any way, shape or form. No matter what your political beliefs are. Unfortunately, I think that incidents like this are only the beginning. I think things are going to get really bad within a decade or two and we will look back upon this as "the good old days".
It is amazing to me how a thread about innocent people being gunned down by lunatics in Arizona can manage to end up all about the feelings of a boy in Virginia.
Thanks Nanci. That profile confirms my earlier thoughts. This isn't party political in any way. It's a mentally disturbed, paranoid individual who targetted the nearest accessible representative of power, in whatever form. I don't suppose we'll ever know why, or why he chose to murder bystanders as well.
A deeply sad time.
I think things are going to get really bad within a decade or two and we will look back upon this as "the good old days".
I remember my grandparents saying this in the early 70s and as far as they were concerned, their fears came true. Regrettably I believe this is true for every generation. The only people who can live comfortably at a given time, are those too young to remember "the good old days". The 20 year olds I'm at university with, don't remember world politics before 9/11. The current state of affairs is "how it's always been" as far as they're concerned and it's what they grew up with. They can't conceive of what the world was like before the War on Terror.
As a Nation we have become very tolerant of violent, hateful rhetoric in the past decade. I hesitate to place the point of this on the events of 9/11, but in the months immediately after, it was not uncommon to hear people demanding revenge against "towel heads," and to see news stories in which idiots attacked and pursued people of (what they felt was) Islamic origin, in spite of the fact that those people were often peaceful, law abiding citizens, and some weren't even Islamics (there was a case in Baltimore in which an Indian man was attacked and killed because two good old boys thought he was Iraqui because of his headwear.
There have been a plethora of violence laden songs written by country music artists (Toby Keith anyone?) and played on the public air waves. There is a plethora of home-grown violence implicated and suggested in the lyrics of modern rap artists (Eminem anyone?) Our national tolerance of this means that our children are exposed at an early age to the idea that violence is an acceptable solution to problems. The number of school shootings we are seeing has increased exponentially in the past 20 years-- and for those who like to blame violent crime on minorities, almost none of those shootings were initiated by minority races.
Mass shootings and assasinations seem to be mainly propagated by white shooters-- it is an issue that must be addressed. We need to identify all the ways that we are teaching our children that violence is an answer to their problems, and eliminate those. American parents need to pay attention to what their kids are watching, listening to, and doing in their spare time. They need to teach positive social behaviors by example--respect for all living things, teamwork, and friendship.
I'm not talking about government censorship. Eminem can write whatever hateful lyrics he wants. I don't think he should be "banned" from expressing himself, but the American public needs to be more vocal in saying enough is enough. Hatred isn't cool. It's not something we as a society want to listen to in our down time. So my children won't be listening to Eminem's songs. If people stop listening, in effect voting with their check cards, then he'll eithers stop writing lyrics that express hate, or he'll disapear as an artist.
All members of society need to be more proactive on this front. I won't be afraid to speak up when the DJ at our homecoming dance plays songs that treat women as sex objects instead of human beings. I won't be afraid of a parents reaction when their son says in my class "Why do we celebrate Martin Luther King day? Like his getting shot was really a bad thing" and I calmly and in front of the entire class tell him that hate speech won't be tolerated in my classroom and that a child who thinks that equality for all people is a bad thing probably needs to keep his mouth shut and learn and experience more of life before he spouts off his opinions. I won't be afraid to call the police when I see teenagers vandalizing the store front across from our house, or hear the guy down the street beating on his wife again through the open front room windows. Acceptance of violence and anti-social actions needs to stop.
We need to stop looking the other way, stop saying things like "Well everyone is entitled to their opinion," and start confronting hatred and re-educating those who allow hatred to guide their politics and lives. We need to stop condemning Muslim nations for being so "tolerant" of extemists and hate speech against the West when we're having the same issues at home. Let's clean out our house first before we start telling our neighbors to do the same.
I will link this site, it leans conservative, but it is ever-changing as headlines change.
So it will only be current for the moment....for the moment.
I don't read as much news as I should, but this page compiles a whole lot of headline news.
And today, people, the "whole lot of news" was....Palin supporters, right wing rhetoric pundits, and from simple conservative to fringe extremist conservatives, (and even a few left pundits/writers/talking heads)...doing a whole lot of backtracking, crawfishing, and whitewashing... http://www.drudgereport.com/
This being said, while (in my mind) the jury is still out on this nutjob,...that does not negate the fact that :
...politicians are sowers of ideas
...they should be aware of who might be listening
...the nutjobs usually listen closely, but selectively
...and the nutjobs act on real or not-real perceptions...regarding messages that responsible public figures and public speakers should be careful about planting out there.
I think of the rhetorical(?) words (I'm paraphrasing) of Henry II "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?", which were (mis)interpreted as a royal command, resulting in the hacking to death of Saint Thomas à Becket in Canterbury Cathedral. Words which Henry later regretted saying.
Moral of the story : Careless words cost a life.
This is the first example that came to mind in answer to the naive notion that a political figure doesn't mutter things, that taken to a faulty extreme, won't result in problems.
And this was 900 years ago.
So while the "no connection" theory is charming, naive, and idealistic,....it was been proven wrong again and again over the ages.
Well, since it's been quoted, I saw it. Since I saw it, I'll answer. No, little Davey, your accusations didn't hurt me; rather, your incomparable hubris in lodging them angered me.
Thanks Nanci. That profile confirms my earlier thoughts. This isn't party political in any way. It's a mentally disturbed, paranoid individual who targetted the nearest accessible representative of power, in whatever form. I don't suppose we'll ever know why, or why he chose to murder bystanders as well.
Bitsy, there is no strong or reliable association between mental illness and violence. Also, there are many, many "accessible representatives of power in whatever form" around for the targeting. There are cops. There's the border patrol. There are many other politicians in Tucson. There's the president of the University of Arizona. There's the mayor of Tucson. This was not a random act. It was not a rational act, it was not a well-reasoned act, but it was not a random act. Jared Loughner is undoubtedly an unstable individual, but unstable individuals, just like all other individuals, operate within their social context.
My ex's brother, for example, usually thought he was either Jesus or James Brown when he was manic. He would go down to the T and play his sax for days. But in all the times he was manic, never once did he think he was a super-cool archaeology student named Bitsy. Why not? Why not Bitsy? Why not Buddha? Why not Beethoven? He certainly knew quite a lot about the latter two. He was pretty well educated and his older sister sang classical. Probably because he grew up a Catholic and not a Buddhist, and Catholic's tend to be more on the Jesus-is-the-awesomest kick more than they are on the Buddha-is-the-awesomest kick. And he and his particular social group were into jazz, not classical. The particular expression of his mental illness was just as affected by the world in which he grew and lived as anyone else's daily lives are. THe expressions of his craziness were influenced by his social context.
THe same must be true for Loughner and any other crazy. And while it is true that both sides of the fence are equally prone to jumping on and blaming the other, it just so happens that right now, in America's political landscape, threats of violence, calls to violence, fantasies about violence are more publicly and more consistently articulated by conservatives against liberals. And sometimes, about and against particular liberals.
Over a year ago, this point was raised by one of Fox New's own anchors.
While this speech is protected and should be free, it is also designed to incite anger, to fan it into a rage, and who knows what can happen then? And in this crazed, dichotomized, polemical political landscape where extreme conservatives are sometimes literally calling each other "to arms" at "tea party" rallies,
some of those crazies are going to be listening, and some of them are going to act. If the political landscape right now were all about peace and making love, Loughner would be more likely to wander off the edge of the Grand Canyon while high on mushrooms, rather than to, in an amazing coincidence beyond coincidences, gun down at point blank range one of the only two candidates who wasn't successfully "dispatched" at the ballot-box by the 20-targets poster.
I am pro-gun rights. I want conservatives to have their voices. I just want them to use them at the ballot box, just like they did in November. I want them to stop fomenting violent sentiments. The frenzied pitch has started to lose its grip on reality and has started to breathe a life its own.
(Do a little thought experiment. Imagine that the muslim cleric who wants to put a mosque several blocks from ground zero released and publicized a poster that had crosshairs on the 20 Republican congresspeople who were most likely to block such action. Now imagine some random brown person, not even a muslim, maybe a legal Mexican immigrant, gunned down one of those people on that poster. What do you think the American reaction would be?)
"I am pro-gun rights. I want conservatives to have their voices. I just want them to use them at the ballot box, just like they did in November. I want them to stop fomenting violent sentiments. The frenzied pitch has started to lose its grip on reality and has started to breathe a life its own. "
So what now all conservatives are "fomenting violent sentiments"?
"I am pro-gun rights. I want conservatives to have their voices. I just want them to use them at the ballot box, just like they did in November. I want them to stop fomenting violent sentiments. The frenzied pitch has started to lose its grip on reality and has started to breathe a life its own. "
So what now all conservatives are "fomenting violent sentiments"?
I'll file that away.
