Sad, sad day in Arizona

[Allalaskan]

Yes. That's exactly what I meant. That very thing. Exactly. [extreme verbal irony]

Wow you amaze me. Its people like you who like to group every one together and treat every one as if they are all the same. YOu are no better than a racist or a sexist. Its people like you who are causing the problems we have in this country. You are the one that I see the most in this thread spreading your hate and anger pointing fingers and causing drama. You will not let go of YOUR hate and YOUR anger and learn that it will not get you any where. Yet you have the audacity to say what you said. You think you are so smart but really you have allot to learn.

I am done with this thread, it has been twisted into a name bashing, finger pointing slam fest in which there is no point but for those who thrive off drama such as desertanimal. The topic has been so twisted off topic that her along with a couple others have no respect for those involved in this truly tragic event. If you had any respect you would have stayed on topic but instead you decided to use this as your sound board to boast on your political views.

 

[Black_Shark]

I will link this site, it leans conservative, but it is ever-changing as headlines change.
So it will only be current for the moment....for the moment.
I don't read as much news as I should, but this page compiles a whole lot of headline news.

And today, people, the "whole lot of news" was....Palin supporters, right wing rhetoric pundits, and from simple conservative to fringe extremist conservatives, (and even a few left pundits/writers/talking heads)...doing a whole lot of backtracking, crawfishing, and whitewashing...
http://www.drudgereport.com/

This being said, while (in my mind) the jury is still out on this nutjob,...that does not negate the fact that :
...politicians are sowers of ideas
...they should be aware of who might be listening
...the nutjobs usually listen closely, but selectively
...and the nutjobs act on real or not-real perceptions...regarding messages that responsible public figures and public speakers should be careful about planting out there.

I think of the rhetorical(?) words (I'm paraphrasing) of Henry II "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?", which were (mis)interpreted as a royal command, resulting in the hacking to death of Saint Thomas à Becket in Canterbury Cathedral. Words which Henry later regretted saying.

Moral of the story : Careless words cost a life.
This is the first example that came to mind in answer to the naive notion that a political figure doesn't mutter things, that taken to a faulty extreme, won't result in problems.
And this was 900 years ago.
So while the "no connection" theory is charming, naive, and idealistic,....it was been proven wrong again and again over the ages.

You correct in that careless words cost lives and the King Henry example is a good one. The only problem with that excellent moral is that it simply doesn't relate here. Jared, the killer, hated Palin. He was of a left-wing slant. Why would a liberal listen to Sarah Palin and then shoot a liberal Congresswoman in the face? In order to remotely connect this to Palin would be to say the Jared was an avid listener/follower of hers. Then it would be naive to say that there is no connection. As of right now, it is more of a coincidence than direct connection.

/ tin foil hat on
Btw, why is no one mourning the death of a conservative JUDGE who was set to hear the case of one of the biggest Mexican COCAINE drugpins ever caught in the US in Feb? I find that very interesting that he died. Would be very convenient timing but now I'm engaging in conspiracy theory with no base. :shrugs: /tin foil hat off

 

[vetusvates]

One, I was speaking in the theoretical on words leading to acts.
Two, as you reinforced by quoting me, I clearly said that "while (in my mind) the jury is still out on this nutjob..."...
So...I have personally neither embraced nor rejected a "connection"...regarding said nutjob this particular news story.
_Something_ sent him on a spree with a Glock.

One link I found. That links him by possessions he owned, where he lived at his parents' home, directly with Ms. Gifford, regarding this particular event.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/arizona.shooting.investigation/index.html

Another link that is inconclusive, with regards to intent versus randomness (or coincidence...your word), of this particular event.
http://www.infowars.com/arizona-assassin-obsessed-with-mind-control/

And...a third link where he is alleged to refer to Gifford as he "described the congresswoman as 'stupid and unintelligent'."
This would be a "connection".
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/01/jared_loughner_alleged_shooter.php

 

[Michael823]

Jared, the killer, hated Palin. He was of a left-wing slant. Why would a liberal listen to Sarah Palin and then shoot a liberal Congresswoman in the face? In order to remotely connect this to Palin would be to say the Jared was an avid listener/follower of hers. Then it would be naive to say that there is no connection. As of right now, it is more of a coincidence than direct connection.

Who knows? I'm not blaming anyone but the killer, but who's to say that even a "left wing" "nutjob" wouldn't be incited by the powerful image that distinctly showed cross-hairs (not a cursor, arrow, smilie face, but cross-hairs... just sayin'). After all, someone with the capacity to do such a thing probably doesn't have a rational way of even processing politics. The strong images might just be enough to have given him a motive. Like I said, who knows?

Also, would this be the same if it were say... a Rap artist promoting violence, or a Muslim man who had a strong political agenda, and a site with the same exact icons (cross-hairs) placed over the locations of high ranking American political figures? Just asking the question. I'm not saying that it is or isn't a certain way or not, just curious about how far, or to whom, does the freedom of speech extend itself?
Heck, what if it had been the same situation with our very own president, Barack Obama, before he took office? What if it was his political site (pre-office) that portrayed those images on conservative political leaders, and there was "coincidentally" a violent act like this on them.

Palin is as innocent as she is guilty. It's really a matter of opinion.

 

[bitsy]

Bitsy, there is no strong or reliable association between mental illness and violence.

And nor did I say so. But those suffering a mental illness will perceive the world differently. Someone inclined to violence (could be anyone in any mental state, including the perfectly sane) can interpret seemingly innocent things as triggers for them. A mental imbalance including paranoia can exaggerate or warp this perception.

I honestly don't need to be lectured on mental illness. 25 years ago I used to have to take six little purple pills a day to *stop* me hallucinating. I know how the world looks from inside a disturbed state. Walking to the bus stop for work one morning, I became convinced that the road markings were trying to attack me. I had to run home and hide under the bed for the rest of the day. If anyone had come up to me and tried to help me I would have interpreted that as an attack and "fought them off". Dealing with agoraphobia, claustrophobia, paranoia, jamais vu and a death obsession simultaneously, is not something that I can easily describe to someone who's never been in that state. Pretty much everything is a threat. From experience, I can conceive of how the killer's mind warped what he's seen and heard - perhaps over years - to get him to a state where he killed.

My ex's brother, for example, usually thought he was either Jesus or James Brown when he was manic.

My bipolar friend takes her clothes off and runs down the street naked, singing happy songs. She's not about to hurt anyone except herself when experiencing one of her episodes. Please don't decide that I'm calling all mentally ill people violent. That would be to condemn my (former)self and people I care for.

Also, there are many, many "accessible representatives of power in whatever form" around for the targeting. There are cops. There's the border patrol. There are many other politicians in Tucson. There's the president of the University of Arizona. There's the mayor of Tucson. This was not a random act. It was not a rational act, it was not a well-reasoned act, but it was not a random act.

I agree that this was not random. It was planned. That particular person was targetted in advance. But that doesn't make it a rational choice. It was just a choice. Made on warped and illogical grounds that we will probably never fully understand. Of the people you list, the senator was the most obvious representative of central governmental power, which seems to be what the killer most railed against. The fact that he was a left-leaning individual and would normally have been one of the senator's constituents, makes the choice even less explicable to us.

The particular expression of his mental illness was just as affected by the world in which he grew and lived as anyone else's daily lives are. THe expressions of his craziness were influenced by his social context.

THe same must be true for Loughner and any other crazy.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Carinata]

Wow you amaze me. Its people like you who like to group every one together and treat every one as if they are all the same. YOu are no better than a racist or a sexist. Its people like you who are causing the problems we have in this country. You are the one that I see the most in this thread spreading your hate and anger pointing fingers and causing drama. You will not let go of YOUR hate and YOUR anger and learn that it will not get you any where. Yet you have the audacity to say what you said. You think you are so smart but really you have allot to learn.

I am done with this thread, it has been twisted into a name bashing, finger pointing slam fest in which there is no point but for those who thrive off drama such as desertanimal. The topic has been so twisted off topic that her along with a couple others have no respect for those involved in this truly tragic event. If you had any respect you would have stayed on topic but instead you decided to use this as your sound board to boast on your political views.

Exactly! You say you don't like extremists but from what I see you are an extremist. People are dead, and the gunman is in the hands of law enforcement. Why can't we agree this is a terrible tragedy that took place and not point fingers at people who have nothing to do with the shooting. He was a democrat, not a republican. Steph, you spew a left winged point of view that is, from me and other members of this community can tell is extremist.

 

[Black_Shark]

Who knows? I'm not blaming anyone but the killer, but who's to say that even a "left wing" "nutjob" wouldn't be incited by the powerful image that distinctly showed cross-hairs (not a cursor, arrow, smilie face, but cross-hairs... just sayin'). After all, someone with the capacity to do such a thing probably doesn't have a rational way of even processing politics. The strong images might just be enough to have given him a motive. Like I said, who knows?

Also, would this be the same if it were say... a Rap artist promoting violence, or a Muslim man who had a strong political agenda, and a site with the same exact icons (cross-hairs) placed over the locations of high ranking American political figures? Just asking the question. I'm not saying that it is or isn't a certain way or not, just curious about how far, or to whom, does the freedom of speech extend itself?
Heck, what if it had been the same situation with our very own president, Barack Obama, before he took office? What if it was his political site (pre-office) that portrayed those images on conservative political leaders, and there was "coincidentally" a violent act like this on them.

Palin is as innocent as she is guilty. It's really a matter of opinion.

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Palin's ad was, in my eyes, perfectly acceptable. Her image is that of a conservative, traditional woman who hunts. So she used crosshairs. Big deal. Part of the problem in this country is that we have become so politically-correct that we are scared to "offend" anyone or have ads that are "offensive". Nothing was wrong with that ad whether it was a Repub or a Democrat who made it. I could care less. The solution is not to ban everything that may offend someone or cause someone to go crazy. And if the Democrats had made an ad like this, I would not be blaming them. I would be blaming the idiot who went out and performed the act of violence just like I am now. The full blame is on Jared. Not Palin, Obama, anyone else. The cause of his rampage we will probably never know because who knows what goes on in his mind?

Back before the 60's when this country was an a**kicking, world leading economic, military, and social superpower this ad wouldn't have turned a head. Now that we have become a politically-correct country, someone is always whining about something that "offends" them and trying to get it banned instead of ignoring it and moving on with their lives. I'm sick and tired of it. This tragedy was caused by one man who was sick in the head. Palin had nothing to do with it and her ad was harmless. the Media has made a huge deal out of nothing here when they should be concentrating fully on the shooter and his past history. Not some ad that had NOTHING to do with this. Personally, if you don't like the ad, then don't listen to her, don't look at it and don't associate with it. After all, as an American, thats your right.

 

[Black_Shark]

Edit: I apologize for the strong language and tone. I'm just very tired of people blaming this act on something unrelated instead of placing total blame on the killer. After rereading your post, I see that you were asking a simple question, so please ignore the tone because I meant no offense.