Taxes, going up??

[wstphal]

At some point people are going to have to realize that if you want to reduce taxes you are going to have to reduce spending. Like it or not, some of your favorite programs are going to have to be cut. If we can't all come to understand that then it will never happen. If you are not will to give up some of the government functions that are important to you, why do you suppose others should be glad to give up theirs?

If you and I are not willing to bite the bullet, who will? If you expect the gov to butter your bread, who will be providing the butter? Not me. You? NIMBY.

Which is why my position is not necessarily anti-tax, but PRO getting my money's worth. Some programs work really well. Example: unemployment compensation. It's relatively hard to get it unless you deserve it because you have lost a job, small enough to motivate the recipient to get a job, large enough to keep them from starving to death in the meantime, and benefits the economy during a downturn.

Another example: our military TROOPS. I won't say procurement isn't a mess, it is. But the personnel themselves are sound & great value for the pay they receive, at least up to the actual Pentagon level (not so sure about them).

On the other hand, I am not sure we are getting our money's worth from foreign aid. Not because I want the USA to be isolationist, but because I want our aid to do some GOOD in the recipient countries. Subsaharan Africa could use helping hands. Not so sure Brazil needs it any more. Pretty darn sure Pakistan is misusing it. And so on.

So I see a lot of room for US citizens to lean about where their tax dollars are going, and speak up to request better allocation, even for those of us who aren't advocating for tax cuts.

 

[starsevol]

As far as tax cuts not benefitting anyone....let me explain my point as simply as I can....
Say you have $20 in your pocket. The government charges you $20 in taxes. Then you have no money in your pocket.

Now let's say that you have $20 in your pocket. Instead of owing $20 in taxes, the government decides to let you keep more of your money, and gives you a 50% tax cut. Then instead of nothing in your pocket, you now have $10 to spend on anything you want or need....
Please explain to me how that does not benefit you?

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

As far as tax cuts not benefitting anyone....let me explain my point as simply as I can....
Say you have $20 in your pocket. The government charges you $20 in taxes. Then you have no money in your pocket.

Now let's say that you have $20 in your pocket. Instead of owing $20 in taxes, the government decides to let you keep more of your money, and gives you a 50% tax cut. Then instead of nothing in your pocket, you now have $10 to spend on anything you want or need....
Please explain to me how that does not benefit you?

That is such a simplistic view of economics that it is immediately apparent to me why exactly this puts such a huge bee in your bonnets. Alright, so now you have the $10. But the government still needs that other $10 somehow, because they need to fill potholes in the roads and open schools etc etc. So instead of taxing your income directly, they have to tax your food, or your alcohol/smokes, or what have you. So you still end up with nothing in your pocket, but now you complain that taxes on your groceries are too high. So you petition and get enough people and money together to convince a good amount of congressmen to vote in favor of lowering food taxes and cutting out things that they deem unnecessary. For an honest citizen these would probably be things like porkbarrel spending to line the pockets of the congressmen and their friends, but in reality the citizen is not the one making the final vote, and the congressmen cut out funding for things like protecting American environments against poachers and invasive species, or building a library or something similarly "good" but also not "necessary" in their eyes. But that still doesn't save enough money, so they bring income taxes back up again... etc etc

An equally simplistic view to be sure, but at least more in depth than "20 - 20 = 0 and 20 - 10 = 10"

Government money has to come from somewhere, and part of the way it gets there (as well of the price of the privilege to live in such a great, all warts aside, country) is by taxing the citizens. It's also kind of like insurance in that the idea is that if you cannot afford to pay taxes, there are programs out there such as SNAP and unemployment to tide you over while you get back on your feet, in part paid for by your neighbors.

 

[wade]

Lexie in your condescending way you have explained the obvious. Yes the government need money and the money comes from the taxpayers. We all understand that. The question is does the government need as much as they are taking? Does the president need to spend tax payers money to fly his wife to Europe for a dinner date? Is it necessary for us to finance Brazilian Oil Companies who are selling their oil not to us but to China?

 

[wstphal]

Government money has to come from somewhere, and part of the way it gets there (as well of the price of the privilege to live in such a great, all warts aside, country) is by taxing the citizens. It's also kind of like insurance in that the idea is that if you cannot afford to pay taxes, there are programs out there such as SNAP and unemployment to tide you over while you get back on your feet, in part paid for by your neighbors.

I know perfectly well that government money comes from ME and people like me. I am reasonably OK with that. The question is, WHAT AM I GETTING FOR ME AND MY FELLOW CITIZENS FROM THAT MONEY??? You seem to think that I am too stupid to be told what my tax dollars are buying, and that I should NOT know, and that the IRS & your father are allowed to know but not ME.

You also seem to think that WHATEVER the government money gets spent on is OK. What about Pentagon procurement? Do you like that? Or only social services spending? Why I can't know I about the pork you mention, and try to stop my Congresscritters from voting for pork or especially voting for pork that lines the pockets of my Congresscritters donors' pockets?

I agree with you that unemployment compensation and SNAP are good programs. I support them. I would like to know what percentage of the money allocated to them actually flows to disadvantaged people, as opposed to how many highly paid administrators & HHS assistant directors there are, but I think these are some of the best social service programs the government runs and I do NOT want them to go away.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Lexie in your condescending way you have explained the obvious. Yes the government need money and the money comes from the taxpayers. We all understand that. The question is does the government need as much as they are taking? Does the president need to spend tax payers money to fly his wife to Europe for a dinner date? Is it necessary for us to finance Brazilian Oil Companies who are selling their oil not to us but to China?

Obviously not, but show me a politician who doesn't have a few fingers in those pies and I'll show you a shocked girl. The problem with our current stage of politics is that all the regular people like you and I can see that those things are wrong and call BS, but the ones in charge of curbing and creating and enforcing laws against those things are the same ones doing them to begin with, and they aren't about to turn themselves in. What we need in the Senate are Americans who are intelligent and have their own opinions but haven't been bred for the political stage like many of these career politicians have and a mandatory term limit for congressmen just like the President, to help prevent those congressmen (I'm sure one or two names jumps to your mind right away) who have clearly lost sight of the point of the seat in the house and the senate and are just clinging to their kickbacks and power rather than finding a new job.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

I know perfectly well that government money comes from ME and people like me. I am reasonably OK with that. The question is, WHAT AM I GETTING FOR ME AND MY FELLOW CITIZENS FROM THAT MONEY??? You seem to think that I am too stupid to be told what my tax dollars are buying, and that I should NOT know, and that the IRS & your father are allowed to know but not ME.

You also seem to think that WHATEVER the government money gets spent on is OK. What about Pentagon procurement? Do you like that? Or only social services spending? Why I can't know I about the pork you mention, and try to stop my Congresscritters from voting for pork or especially voting for pork that lines the pockets of my Congresscritters donors' pockets?

I agree with you that unemployment compensation and SNAP are good programs. I support them. I would like to know what percentage of the money allocated to them actually flows to disadvantaged people, as opposed to how many highly paid administrators & HHS assistant directors there are, but I think these are some of the best social service programs the government runs and I do NOT want them to go away.

Betsy, I haven't even been addressing you this entire time. I've been addressing Beth, Megan, and Wade.

 

[wade]

Your grasp of the obvious is astounding. So does that bring us back to cutting government spending and then taxes?

Lexie, this has been great fun but I think I will concentrate my efforts in other places for a while.

 

[starsevol]

Lexie in your condescending way you have explained the obvious. Yes the government need money and the money comes from the taxpayers. We all understand that. The question is does the government need as much as they are taking? Does the president need to spend tax payers money to fly his wife to Europe for a dinner date? Is it necessary for us to finance Brazilian Oil Companies who are selling their oil not to us but to China?

You know Wade, if I took money from my business and flew myself and the hubby to Europe for a dinner date, I am sure I would be jailed for embezzlement. What are the implications when the President does it?

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Your grasp of the obvious is astounding. So does that bring us back to cutting government spending and then taxes?

Lexie, this has been great fun but I think I will concentrate my efforts in other places for a while.

So I finally post something you can agree with and instead of saying "Yes, that's right!" you decide to comment (condescendingly, a word you used to describe me just one post earlier!) on how obvious it is and then leave? Hmm, and people say the young are rude.

 

[starsevol]

I know perfectly well that government money comes from ME and people like me. I am reasonably OK with that. The question is, WHAT AM I GETTING FOR ME AND MY FELLOW CITIZENS FROM THAT MONEY??? You seem to think that I am too stupid to be told what my tax dollars are buying, and that I should NOT know, and that the IRS & your father are allowed to know but not ME.

You also seem to think that WHATEVER the government money gets spent on is OK. What about Pentagon procurement? Do you like that? Or only social services spending? Why I can't know I about the pork you mention, and try to stop my Congresscritters from voting for pork or especially voting for pork that lines the pockets of my Congresscritters donors' pockets?

I agree with you that unemployment compensation and SNAP are good programs. I support them. I would like to know what percentage of the money allocated to them actually flows to disadvantaged people, as opposed to how many highly paid administrators & HHS assistant directors there are, but I think these are some of the best social service programs the government runs and I do NOT want them to go away.

Gee Betsy, aside from saying that she was not addressing you, Lexie avoided responding to this entire post. Hmmmm.....

 

[wstphal]

Gee Betsy, aside from saying that she was not addressing you, Lexie avoided responding to this entire post. Hmmmm.....

Yeah. Hmm indeed.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Gee Betsy, aside from saying that she was not addressing you, Lexie avoided responding to this entire post. Hmmmm.....

Yeah. Hmm indeed.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware it was my responsibility to respond to every single person who comments on what I say, especially when they are getting themselves increasingly worked up and personally offended against things not even directed at them. I'll remember to compulsively and obsessively answer every single post that is made in the future.:shrugs:

 

[starsevol]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware it was my responsibility to respond to every single person who comments on what I say, especially when they are getting themselves increasingly worked up and personally offended against things not even directed at them. I'll remember to compulsively and obsessively answer every single post that is made in the future.:shrugs:

Maybe you can start by addressing THAT post? Just sayin'.....

 

[wstphal]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware it was my responsibility to respond to every single person who comments on what I say, especially when they are getting themselves increasingly worked up and personally offended against things not even directed at them. I'll remember to compulsively and obsessively answer every single post that is made in the future.:shrugs:

You don't have to answer my posts. I thought it was interesting when pointed out, but that's all. As for "increasingly worked up and personally offended", well I was trying to stick to the topic, and you haven't seen "worked up and personally offended" nor will you.

I am very interested in where my tax dollars go, but not necessarily interested in LOWERING the amount I pay. Apparently, that's "worked up and personally offended." I was under the impression that was being an informed citizen & voter. My mistake, YMMV.

Edit: I guess our civics teachers taught very different curricula. S'okay, as long as I'm allowed to read the bills the Congresscritters pass, I can keep up with what I want to keep up with.

 

[starsevol]

Unlike Betsy, I believe that the average citizen pays too much in taxes.
I think that soon there will be a breaking point, and if you think things are bad now, just wait until we reach that breaking point....

And like Betsy, I want to know where my tax dollars go, and I want a say in how they are spent. The congresscritters are supposed to be working for US, not the other way around. I think that there are many good programs that need to be kept, but there are also many that need to go.

In my household, when the money runs out, the spending stops.
I don't go around shaking down my neighbors or taking out loans that I have no way to pay off.
Government needs to operate the same way.

 

[wstphal]

Unlike Betsy, I believe that the average citizen pays too much in taxes.
I think that soon there will be a breaking point, and if you think things are bad now, just wait until we reach that breaking point....

And like Betsy, I want to know where my tax dollars go, and I want a say in how they are spent. The congresscritters are supposed to be working for US, not the other way around. I think that there are many good programs that need to be kept, but there are also many that need to go.

In my household, when the money runs out, the spending stops.
I don't go around shaking down my neighbors or taking out loans that I have no way to pay off.
Government needs to operate the same way.

I wouldn't disagree with you that the average citizen pays too much in taxes. I am OK with MY taxes being what they are. I know I am relatively fortunate, and lots of people have things a LOT worse and I realize that taxes are just one of the burdens people are struggling with.

I agree that we are entitled to know what the Congresscritters are doing in our name. How else do we make good decisions about whom to un-elect and whom to return to DC? My civics teacher emphasized the need for voters to educate themselves about what our elected representatives did so we could make good decisions in in the voting booth, and that this was intended by the authors of the Constitution.

I am also separating my tax burden from the issue of government debt. I am very worried about government debt. I realize there are times when governments DO need to borrow. Financing capital projects by selling bonds is very reasonable. The deficits the US government ran during WWII were reasonable too, and partly financed by selling bonds to the US population, and I am OK with that. But the ratio of of government debt to GDP we are reaching is very worrisome. We are approaching the kinds of ratios that Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece & Spain are running, and they are on the verge of default, and the international financial markets HAVE responded. We need to back away from that precipice so that we can continue to sell US Treasuries.

 

[wade]

We are approaching the kinds of ratios that Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece & Spain are running, and they are on the verge of default, and the international financial markets HAVE responded. We need to back away from that precipice so that we can continue to sell US Treasuries.

I too am very worried about that. It would be the number one topic in my home if my finances looked like that. I would be looking at every possible way to cut costs and save money and eliminate the unnecessary expenses. I'll bet most people would do the same.

Gee, I wonder why the government hasn't thought of that. Has anyone notice anyone in the government actually talking about reducing spending? I mean really? They only talk I'm hearing is costing more and more. Maybe they don't realize the country is in debt. Somebody should tell them.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

I too am very worried about that. It would be the number one topic in my home if my finances looked like that. I would be looking at every possible way to cut costs and save money and eliminate the unnecessary expenses. I'll bet most people would do the same.

Gee, I wonder why the government hasn't thought of that. Has anyone notice anyone in the government actually talking about reducing spending? I mean really? They only talk I'm hearing is costing more and more. Maybe they don't realize the country is in debt. Somebody should tell them.

Yes, you get on that. Meanwhile we're dealing with a war, an environmental disaster, and unreasonably high unemployment rates, and those things don't pay for themselves.

 

[wade]

Lexie, you are so dang cute when you talk all grown up.