Temperatures influence gender?

[PnyKlr]

And what I understand you to be sayng is that even if I produce a higher ratio of females - several seasons consistently that it would still be "coincidence" because a "world wide" study has not proven it either way. ( which to my knowledge has not happened )

Coincidence, yes, in the same manner that many people think identical twinning is hereditary and "skips a generation." This type of twinning happening in one family line is only coincidence.

You said "Look at all the different morphs that have been bred" ....I may have missed it, but what does that have to do with TSD ?

If people have spent many years breeding corns to get these morphs, one would assume that breeders (more than just one or two) would have noticed a correlation between temperature and sex ratios, if there was one.

You also mention .... that evidence is leaning towards the "not temperature dependant" side of the issue.
I ask ..who's evidence, what evidence?
Because w/ my personal experience I see it differently.

The "evidence" I speak of is: if you can't easily replicate your results, then it is a coincidence/fluke. (Even if it happens a lot). You say you are on the fence with this one. IF you (not YOU, personally, but the "everybody" you) can't consistently get the suggested sex ratios by changing the temperature alone, then it's not a valid determination.

Please do not take this personally, or as a shot at what you have said. If sex is temperature dependant, I have a hard time believing that over the years of corn breeding by so many who make a living doing this (I include them because this means they breed enough to live on...not many can say that), no one else has come to this determination. Because of this, I would say it's a coincidence.

My dad had 3 girls. Am I the result of some sort of outside influence? Could just be that my little X chromosome was the first to get in. Could just be that simple with corns.

The easiest solution is generally the right one.

 

[homegrownherps]

If people have spent many years breeding corns to get these morphs, one would assume that breeders (more than just one or two) would have noticed a correlation between temperature and sex ratios, if there was one.

You can only GUESS what other breeders do when breeding for certain morphs. Again your assumption is just that. I can't speak for other breeders, but I don't really care about breeding for sex. If it happens, it hapens. And yes higher female ratios are much better for some. I would much prefer nice healthy babies over a higher female ratio...anyday.

And if there are that many breeders that should know then you would think at least a few of them would post thier thoughts or findings here.
I belive one of those already did post...and they said that TSD should'nt be ruled out.

The "evidence" I speak of is: if you can't easily replicate your results, then it is a coincidence/fluke. (Even if it happens a lot). You say you are on the fence with this one. IF you (not YOU, personally, but the "everybody" you) can't consistently get the suggested sex ratios by changing the temperature alone, then it's not a valid determination.

How can you say that even if I am able to replicate my results year after year that it is still "luck"? Does that really make sense ?

In one sentance you say that even if I do produce a higher ratio of females its still only "luck" , but in the next sentance you say "IF you (not YOU, personally, but the "everybody" you) can't consistently get the suggested sex ratios by changing the temperature alone, then it's not a valid determination.

Please do not take this personally, or as a shot at what you have said. If sex is temperature dependant, I have a hard time believing that over the years of corn breeding by so many who make a living doing this (I include them because this means they breed enough to live on...not many can say that), no one else has come to this determination. Because of this, I would say it's a coincidence.

I breed reptiles for a living, so why is it that my results don't count?
Do you know how many corn snake breeders out there produce enough to conduct such research?
And of the ones that produce enough, do they have the space or even care to do such research?
Do the breeders that make a living out of breeding corns really want to go thru all the recording keeping and research to find out?
I know I don't, and I am only producing about 800 eggs. by 2008 I am expecting to produce in the range of 2500-3000 eggs. I will stillnot have the time or space to conduct this project as it should be.

I am not taking this personal at all, it's merely a "discussion" ( the whole purpose of these forums ). The thing is that I am basing my opinion on personal experience, I don't know what your basing your opinion on ( the same goes for Blkkat - what personal experience are you basing your opinion on ? )




With all that you're saying you don't have any proof either.And your saying if I incubate my corn eggs next season, at the same temps I did this season and produce a higher ratio of females, is it still coincidence/luck ?
How many years will it take, when it will not be considered coincidence ?

You speak of evidence, but don't provide any. If am able to produce higher ratios of female due to incubation temps consistently and others cant, that really doesn't prove much except that other just cant do it.

 

[PnyKlr]

If am able to produce higher ratios of female due to incubation temps consistently and others cant, that really doesn't prove much except that other just cant do it.

This is where the problem lies. This actually is what I am talking about. If you can do it, but no one else can when they try, then yes, this is evidence that temperature is not a factor.

Than would be like me saying "Hey, take this pill for erectile dysfunction, it cures my husband," and it doesn't work on anyone else. Does this mean that I can claim my pill cures ED? No way.

If the results can't be easily replicated, then temperature not a factor in sex determination. If it works for you and no one else, the fact that you get similar results each time is coincidence.

 

[homegrownherps]

This is where the problem lies. This actually is what I am talking about. If you can do it, but no one else can when they try, then yes, this is evidence that temperature is not a factor.

Than would be like me saying "Hey, take this pill for erectile dysfunction, it cures my husband," and it doesn't work on anyone else. Does this mean that I can claim my pill cures ED? No way.

If the results can't be easily replicated, then temperature not a factor in sex determination. If it works for you and no one else, the fact that you get similar results each time is coincidence.

The problem lies here, until you or anyone else can show actual data involving TSD in Cornsnakes ...they have absolutely no place telling ANYONE that it cant be done.

People keep using Human and Lizard scenarios here when they shouldn't be.
If were talking about cornsnakes lets keep it on track.

If I am able to continuously produce higher ratios of females, then what I am doing can NO WAY be call luck or coincidence.

So ....if I don't get my eggs to hatch next season and duplicate everything I did this season, that would mean the other breeders got "lucky" in getting theirs to hatch?

The bottom line here is that NO ONE can say either way until they have done the experimention. And I can only speak for what I personally have done. Not what I heard from some else or guess that it happened due to "luck". As I mentioned before, I will gladly share the ratios I get next season and the season after that , and so on and so on.

We can go back and forth for days, but until there is solid PROOF I will most definitely NOT rule out the fact that cornsnakes may be incubated for male/female. Your thoughts and opinions are certainly not near enough proof to sway me either way.
At least I on the other hand am actually breeding and producing corns on a regular basis, next season we'll see what happens.

 

[PnyKlr]

Whatever.

At least I on the other hand am actually breeding and producing corns on a regular basis, next season we'll see what happens.

I keep telling you that I am speaking from a scientific point of view. In the science world (which does include snakes and humans, so my analogies are quite on point) you results won't hold up. There are no/few other breeders here who have joined in on your TSD campaign.




Again, whatever you say ohmasterofthingsIknownothingaboutwhowillshowusalltheerrorofourway.

Thank you. I will now go back and re-teach my kids the scientific method and include your "if I'm the only one who can get these results, then everone else can suck a big monkey toe" aspect of testing. And I'll be sure to pass it along to scholars at the big universities so that they, too, can begin testing this way. A whole lot of interesting things will come of this, you just sit back and wait for it.

 

[homegrownherps]

Whatever.





I keep telling you that I am speaking from a scientific point of view. In the science world (which does include snakes and humans, so my analogies are quite on point) you results won't hold up. There are no/few other breeders here who have joined in on your TSD campaign.




Again, whatever you say ohmasterofthingsIknownothingaboutwhowillshowusalltheerrorofourway.

Thank you. I will now go back and re-teach my kids the scientific method and include your "if I'm the only one who can get these results, then everone else can suck a big monkey toe" aspect of testing. And I'll be sure to pass it along to scholars at the big universities so that they, too, can begin testing this way. A whole lot of interesting things will come of this, you just sit back and wait for it.

Ok, where's the scientific proof you are speaking of ?
Just like blkkat ...no proof.

At least I can say I did it, and I know what the results are ...how many corn snakes have you bred to determine your outcome on ?

Teach your kids what ever you must, just don't teach them something if theres no proof.

And next time ...save you sarcasm for some one else.
I guess since I wont bow to your way of thinking, this is what the discussion turns to ... typical forum BS.

 

[PnyKlr]

You have no "proof" either. The fact that no one else is/can do it is a big slap in the face to your campaign. All I'm saying is that there is not enough proof for you to say that it is temperature dependent. There is more "proof" showing that there is no correlation than there is showing TSD.

Here's a question for you: Why is it that no one else is fighting as hard about this as you are? Certainly with 1300 + views that someone with the same views would have read this and put in there 2 cents if there were any.

I've said from the beginning that I don't breed corn snakes. This does not make my opinion any less valid. You don't have proof enough to say that sex is temperature dependent...even if you've done it a few times. People have to be able to replicate your findings....and it seems as if they can't. If it can't be replicated, it's not enough "proof" and sex is not temperature dependent.

I am not asking you to bow to my way of thinking about corns and TSD, but I am asking you to bow to what is universally accepted as scientific inquiry and experimentation. You are the one with the problem accepting the fact that if others can't copy your findings, TSD isn't in the cards.

I'm done with my typical forum BS now. Shoot, there's that sarcasm again. I think I'll go find a way to cure it for myself.....and send it to others who need it. I don't care if it doesn't work on anybody else, it works for me so it must be scientifically sound.

 

[homegrownherps]

You have no "proof" either. The fact that no one else is/can do it is a big slap in the face to your campaign. All I'm saying is that there is not enough proof for you to say that it is temperature dependent. There is more "proof" showing that there is no correlation than there is showing TSD.

Here's a question for you: Why is it that no one else is fighting as hard about this as you are? Certainly with 1300 + views that someone with the same views would have read this and put in there 2 cents if there were any.

I've said from the beginning that I don't breed corn snakes. This does not make my opinion any less valid. You don't have proof enough to say that sex is temperature dependent...even if you've done it a few times. People have to be able to replicate your findings....and it seems as if they can't. If it can't be replicated, it's not enough "proof" and sex is not temperature dependent.

I am not asking you to bow to my way of thinking about corns and TSD, but I am asking you to bow to what is universally accepted as scientific inquiry and experimentation. You are the one with the problem accepting the fact that if others can't copy your findings, TSD isn't in the cards.

I'm done with my typical forum BS now. Shoot, there's that sarcasm again. I think I'll go find a way to cure it for myself.....and send it to others who need it. I don't care if it doesn't work on anybody else, it works for me so it must be scientifically sound.

First of all your the saying it cant be done, and when I ask for proof all I get is chatter about how it can't be done ......sh** or get off the pot .
Show me some proof.

I have proof of what my offspring were this season as well as all the season previous. And I wasn't the that posted saying that TSD CAN NOT BE DONE.
And when that person did post that comment I asked for proof from them as well.....and guess what , they didn't send me any proof either.

and I guess if you actually go back and read some of my posts you'll find that I never said it can or cant be done. Just because you say it cant be done, I should agree ?

If there is so much proof showing it can't be done ...send me some.

why am I fighting so hard...first of all why do you want to make it a fight ?
I love it when.....when I don't go with the flow it becomes a fight !
Second ...why don't you ask them why they aren't speaking up?

ITS VERY SIMPLE SHOW ME THE PROOF !

Until then I will continue to believe what I wish, wether you like it or not.

So unless you have any better to say, I will not respond to your posts again.

 

[PnyKlr]

Your "poof" just isn't enough for you to say it may be a possibility. You are here saying that if you are the only one who can see the TSD correlation, then that's all that matters. You are offended when I say that if you are the only one, then it is coincidence.

I was not turning anything into a fight. It was, in my opinion, a healthy debate about the process of being able to make a claim.

You are asking for proof, but are unable to provide enough yourself. I have offered the reasons why it is not TSD, but you dismiss them because you don't seem to like what I have to say.

I know that you did not say that sex what without-a-doubt TSD, but you seem unwilling to accept the fact that more evidence is against it. You don't see proof because you aren't wanting to see it (or not understanding it; I'm sure the former is true).

I'm not saying it 100% isn't TSD, but I am saying that there is much more to show that temps are not a determining factor. As for sending you proof: no studies have been done proving one way or the other, BUT based on the breeding that has occurred thus far, there has been little evidence showing a relationship. Your findings are not proof enough. If you could combine them with someone else after CONTROLLED experiments, then you would have a leg to stand on.

I could care less what you believe, but I'm just trying to point out how your "proof" is not enough to base a finding on. Its coincidence. I am not going to spend time asking breeders to verify what I already think they'll say: They have found no relationship. If they agreed, they'd post...there have been over 1400 page views, so statistically if someone who agreed came across, they would have posted (or at least pm'd or rep'd you for it).

I have nothing better to say, because what I've said already has been fantastic (it must be because you've been quoting me in full the past few posts, which just gives me twice the air time). I apologize for sarcastic remarks, and that I've angered you so much that you have been driven to swearing with asterisks.

This must all be because I'm young and don't know any better. Shoot, there's that sarcasm again.

 

[Joejr14]

Here's the problem, folks.

Jim wasn't the one to come on and say, "Corns are absolutely not TSD".

Jim wasn't the one to say "Corns are absolutely TSD".

In fact, all Jim did was questions where Stephanie got her 'data and proof' from---and there was nothing wrong with that. How many studies have been done regarding this in corns? None.

That right there shows that NOBODY can say that corns are or are not TSD. PERIOD.

Jim is not saying they are TSD, nor is he saying they are NOT. One person made a blanket statement that they are not---and he asked for proof. Proof was not given, end of discussion. Jim has nothing to prove, as he didn't make a statement saying they were. He merely said 'they might be'.

 

[homegrownherps]

Here's the problem, folks.

Jim wasn't the one to come on and say, "Corns are absolutely not TSD".

Jim wasn't the one to say "Corns are absolutely TSD".

In fact, all Jim did was questions where Stephanie got her 'data and proof' from---and there was nothing wrong with that. How many studies have been done regarding this in corns? None.

That right there shows that NOBODY can say that corns are or are not TSD. PERIOD.

Jim is not saying they are TSD, nor is he saying they are NOT. One person made a blanket statement that they are not---and he asked for proof. Proof was not given, end of discussion. Jim has nothing to prove, as he didn't make a statement saying they were. He merely said 'they might be'.

Thanks Joe...I'm getting tired of repeating myself. :sidestep:

 

[PnyKlr]

Just as we are tired of repeating that working for you and no one else is not good evidence.

No one ever said you were 100% on the TSD thing, but you are bent out of shape to have people prove you wrong...which gives the impression that you feel you are 100% right. It was implied that since it worked for you, it must be so.

I also never said the TSD is 100% not there, just that it appears as if it is not a factor.

I'm just showing the innaccuracies in the whole idea. Nobody can say for certain, but there can be "proof" that will sway the population one way.

 

[homegrownherps]

Just as we are tired of repeating that working for you and no one else is not good evidence.

No one ever said you were 100% on the TSD thing, but you are bent out of shape to have people prove you wrong...which gives the impression that you feel you are 100% right. It was implied that since it worked for you, it must be so.

I also never said the TSD is 100% not there, just that it appears as if it is not a factor.

I'm just showing the innaccuracies in the whole idea. Nobody can say for certain, but there can be "proof" that will sway the population one way.

BUT...you still haven't proved me wrong.
And if you can read, I wasn't the only one who thinks it can possible be done.