The purchase of lone or extra females..

[pewter]

Good piont Rich,

I thought about writing this here the last days but I was to busy - just wrote today a very important test!
I had this year the problem that a lot of my males got ill from the breeding stress (they are ok now). Would you breed an ill male to a pregnant female??? I didn´t tried it...I was clever enough to have some extra males. I also found an infertile male this year for the first time...I thought that this problem might have others but not me - how stupid!
All the years I told me...always to buy - if it´s possible - two male of each line and this year I realized how important this is!

 

[Rich Z]

Pewter - unless you know for certain that the male does not have anything contagious, I would be very reluctant to expose any other snake to him. Males can survive just about anything during the breeding season. Females, weakened and stressed severely by the rigors of producing and forcing those eggs out, can often rapidly deteriorate from normally minor ailments and will die before you can do anything about it. I have NEVER lost a male during breeding season. However it is not uncommon for me to lose a couple of females from one thing or another.

A lot of people don't realize it, but everytime you breed those females you are running the risk of possibly losing them. That's why when I get a 'one of a kind' animal, I breath a sigh of relief if it's a male.

 

[Tim Madsen]

All good points Rich, a commercial breeder would be crazy to have a breeding project hinging on one male if they could help it. I'm not so sure it applies as closely for the hobbiest. If three snakes is all that's in my snake budget I'd get 1.2, if something happens to the male I'm just set back a couple of years, no big deal, my living is not dependent on it. Of coarse if it's within my hobby budget I'm going to get a backup male. And I'm going to hold back a male or two out of the first clutch. As for those double and triple het. projects, I'll leave figuring out what all those different hatchlings are, up to you. I don't need that headache. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this extra female problem.

 

[carol]

Amen!
I agree 100% with Rich, all you who are female heavy don't know the trouble you could be in. Here is another scenerio:
I Love the miami morphs, and I have quite a few Crimsons/ Hypo Miamis. It has been my goal for a while to breed Miami Motleys. I found a guy that had an adult female motley that had Miami coloration, but he would not sell her to me for anything. So I went about my business and bred my best Hypo Miami to 3 females. Infertile? NO, it was his first year ever and as a 2 year old he produced 44 good eggs out of 48 possible, the first time around, another female just layed a second clutch with 14 good eggs and the other two are double clutching as well (Without a second breeding) He was a very aggressive breeder. So what's the point you say?
A couple of months ago, the owner of the Miami Motley female contacted me and basically said, "She is in shed, ready to bred and my family just had and unexpected illness" SOLD!
So she got here and shed, I was sooo excited. I put her in with my Super Breeder Male
.................nothing........nothing..........nothing
Several tries and he had absoulty 0 intrest in her, and she was ready to go.
Thank Goodness I had a male Milksnake Phase to breed to her since I really wanted to breed her with only Miami colored males.
She just layed the eggs this week and I expect to have Miamis het Motley, imagine how frustrating it would have been if I didn't have the extra male around.

So beware those of you who say "But my male is fertile and breeds great" because you never know when they'll poop on ya.

 

[Rich Z]

Carol brings up an interesting point. There certainly is mate preference among corn snakes. Some males will not want to mate with particular females, and some females will have nothing to do with certain males. Happens all of the time, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

Although a hobbiest livelihood is not hinging upon the production of eggs from their animals, I will tell you for sure that NOTHING is going to disappoint you more than taking the time to grow your animals up, watch them breed and see the female get swollen with apparent eggs. And then one morning you check the egg laying box to find 28 infertile eggs in there.

I get my share of infertiles as much as anyone else, and it is rarely a welcome sight. Well, maybe after the 4,000th or so egg has already been dropped for the season, I'm not quite so disappointed as I would be otherwise, but it makes you feel like so much time and effort has been wasted when that happens. When you get three of four of them in a row, which can happen sometimes, you will often feel like just throwing in the towel.

And whatever you do, DO NOT calculate the money you are going to make off of those babies when the female is still carrying the eggs, and make plans on what you are going to do with that extra money. Lord knows how many orders I've had cancelled from people whom had done just that and then discovered that things didn't go as they had planned.

 

[Colleen]

Oh No!!!

Ok I'm getting all pairs to breed first for a really cool homeschool project, and second to sell some to help cover the costs. Now that I'm reading this I'm beginning to wonder if I should be getting 2 pairs of each!!?!? But that wouldn't allow me to get as many of the morphs! Uggg! And here I thought I was being smart to get pairs!! My head hurts!

Colleen

 

[kenalotia]

I think enough of your pairs would be compatible and fertile that you don't need to buy two pairs of everything. If a pair doesn't take, you can try breeding the female with a different male. You won't get what you originally had in mind, but you can probably adapt your herp genetics lesson to what you get. And, hey, if necessary, your can include a lesson on the issues of infertility!

 

[pdrau]

Thanks for the good whap on the head Rich. Your points are well taken. My ratio of males to females is definitely changing.

Peter

 

[LindsayMarie]

My thoughts

Hi everyone. I have been reading the posts from the beginning and was unable to post my own thoughts ont he subject as I was waiting for registration to be ok'ed! So this is my first time posting.

Anyways, I think charging extra for females wouldnt be a bad idea at all. After all its not like it is unheard of! Most breeders of just about anything have thought of the idea or done so already. To be honest I can understand why. The want and need for them is higher and prices are based upon supply and demand and quality, right?

I know I recently contacted Rich about buying a female for a male I was hoping to buy through Kathy. This had nothing to do with her extra charge on lone females as I was already buying a male from her My biggest concern is I would like the corns I buy to be as unrelated as possible. Buying them from different breeders is probably the best way to get that. Not to mention sometimes a different breeder has exactly what your looking for in a mate for the corn you bought from the first breeder and the first breeder you bought from didnt?! (hope that made sense)

I have to be honest I was thinking of only getting one male and 2 females for each morph project. Boy now that I read everything, I know I was wrong! I wasnt thinking what if the male died, what if he wont breed, what if he is infertile! I will have to re-think my ideas and as much as I would hate to, stick with one color morph project for this year and buy a even ration of 2.2. I dont know yet. Maybe only being a hobbiest I will take my chances?

Back to my original point. Charging extra isnt necessarily a bad thing! You have to do what is best for you keeping customer satisfaction in mind still though I am sure most who want extra females understand the spot it puts breeders in and wouldnt think twice about paying a little extra! I know I wouldnt. If I want the snakes I will pay it! Just my thoughts. Take care everyone, Goodluck with the decision. Lindsay Bryant

 

[Bippy]

Ya know, Rich... you might want to make up one of your little article/rants like the other two you have up there and post it to your SerpenCo website, on the subject of sex ratios for breeding pairs.

I bet part of the reason newbie breeders buy 1.6 of everything is because they don't know any better. No one told them that the male might be a dud, or just might not be interested. It'd likely be helpful for those who actually choose to look through things before they place orders. Just a thought, (after all, the people buying 1.3 or higher female ratios can obviously afford the more stable 2.2 instead).

There will still probably be people that won't read it, and there will still probably be people who do read it and choose not to follow. It's the latter that probably buy lottery tickets too.

And for the people that spend the money they expect to get from their hatchlings before they hatch... well... that's like spending expected lottery winnings before the numbers have been drawn. Not very bright, IMHO.


I had an experience with the mate preference thing already. I attempted to breed a rather nicely patterned Anery with a snow female, and the male wanted absolutely nothing to do with her. Fortunately I had a few other males that were ready to choose from (and two got the chance), but if I'd only had the one male, I'd be outta luck.


I do have a question, though. In your experience, Rich, of the 'fertile' eggs laid each year, approximately what ratio actually hatches, and approximately what ratio of the hatchers actually survive to be sold?

-Bippy (who is just a tad male-heavy ATM)

 

[Rich Z]

I do have a question, though. In your experience, Rich, of the 'fertile' eggs laid each year, approximately what ratio actually hatches, and approximately what ratio of the hatchers actually survive to be sold?

Well, I don't think I can answer that accurately. For the last few years, although I keep all of the figures on a spreadsheet, when things get hot and heavy with animals hatching out, I really can't keep up with the data entry stuff. Some clutches will hatch out, have nothing inspiring in them, and I'll dump the entire clutch into a bag to go out to a wholesaler I'm packing a shipment for. And invariably I don't mark down the card as to how many hatched and that skews the numbers on the spreadsheet.

A seat of the pants estimate is that about 80 percent will hatch from the apparently good eggs that were laid.

Now keeping track of the hatchlings themselves is a lost cause. I used to do that and keep every ID number in a database so I could track back its lineage as well have a record of what happened to each and every animal. But that database hasn't been updated since 1995 when I started producing so many animals that I had to choose between doing the data entry or taking care of the animals. I probably still have every card for every animal I have made up cards on since then (which have been limited to only the animals I kept as breeding stock), but they are scattered in every nook and cranny you can think of. It would be a monumental task to find all those cards, key in the data, and bring my inventory up to date with all of the ancestry data. I keep fooling myself thinking that someday I will get around to doing that, but the numbers of animals around here are constantly increasing, which means less time and even more data that should be processed.

 

[Colleen]

Thanks Kenalotia

As I was pondering this new info. I realized that too! After all that is the way nature works, it's never predictable.

Rich, I also agree with Bippy. I have been reading and researching almost continuosly and all I ever heard was that you don't need more than 1 male to 2-3 females. I for one am very thankful for the information in this thread, and you would be opening a lot of eyes if it was on your site.


Thanks for sharing!!

Colleen

 

[pipatic]

here's another one but with royals.bought 1.2 cb, grew on breeding time came around,nothing no sign of mating,nothing,cut along story short, brought in second male,who started mating straight away, sudenly woke up the first male,you then mated with the females on and of all winter.

 

[SilverTongue]

*************SilverTongue will become famous and quite rich creating Viagra for cornsnakes!!!!***************

 

[MateoSnake]

You Do What You Gotta Do!

I have the very same problem with my bearded dragons... EVERYBODY wants the females and the males don't sell nearly as well as females. So... the price of female bearded dragons are MUCH higher than the males. And as mentioned earlier by someone: SUPPLY & DEMAND. If they want those females, as most of them do... They will pay a higher price for them. I would also buy in pairs if that was all that was available to me. But, like someone else said... they would also go somewhere else in a heartbeat, like to a reptile show or a smaller breeder! We all know the truth here... everyone is trying to make a buck and everyone wants some kind of deal. Not a bad thing, just human nature I guess. I say, raise the prices of those females! If you sell them seperate at one price, give a price break if they buy the pair. Many of them will buy the pair if they "think" they are getting a deal that way. It's not being sneaky, it just makes common sense. In the area of popular lizards, that is the norm. Higher priced females and, a cut in price on the pair. That was my $.02

 

[pdrau]

I suppose doing something like 2.3 or 2.4 wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if you have multi-het males and females that have various het traits. The possibilities are endless, but I'm sure we've all gotten the point that 1.x isn't a good idea at all. So many choices, so little money!


Peter

 

[HomeBreeder]

breeding lotto

Rich,

As others have stated, the info you are providing is quite valuable to us neophytes. Obviously breeding is not unlike gambling, because no matter how safely you place your bets, there is always a random element. This randomness provides a large aspect of the enjoyment for breeders, commerical or hobbyist alike, I'd think. Then of course, as you point out it can also result in a folded hand and forfeit of your bet. The need to hedge one's bets will be more urgent for the businessperson than the hobbyist.

My vision for my corn breeding projects is manyfold: perform selective breeding to obtain "custom" background coloration and saddle design for one, also to produce a few "high demand" designer morphs, and of course - support myself. When all is said and done, I'll have spent close to $5000.00 on corn snakes but I should have in excess of 20 males and 20 females. Even with a near 1:1 ratio however, some of my projects ARE going to be major gambles... for example my lavender blood so far consists of only:

2001 male hypo lav
2002 female hypo lav

So, by 2004 I might know if these two will breed with each other; if my bet pays off, their first clutch could pay for theit investment. On the other hand, if I can only get the male to breed I'd be looking at somewhere around 2008 or later before I can be breeding hypo lavs and I think it'd take even longer if the female was the only breeder in the pair (unless I coulf get her to double clutch from two mates, right?) One fortunate thing in my specific circumstance, is that if neither of them breed I'll still be very happy with a beautiful pair of Sepenco HypLavs as my plan only accounts for income when a happy customer gets their order and not a moment sooner. So yes, it's definately a gamble, but I haven't rules out finding a hyplav stud or acquiring more lav or hyplav blood over the next couple years....

You want to talk risky, so far I have only one 2002 female pewter, and one 2002 male bloodred lined up. I don't see myself selling these lines this decade Especially considering I'm wanting to play with the bloodred genes in my selective breeding projects, so when I finally get offspring most or all of it will be held back.

About the only thing that's a fairly safe bet for me so far is a reasonable number of hatchlings ranging from normal through okeetee and miami next summer. Honestly though, that's for the best - being a neophyte I'd be kicking myself if my novice husbandry caused me to lose eggs or hatchlings frrom my more expensive bloodlines.

Anyway, I'm probably rambling here, and the kids are asking for their second serving today...

^Curtis

 

[Rich Z]

One of these days I need to put up an 'about SerpenCo' page on my site. There are so many flashe sites out there that can make anyone look like they have been doing this forever. This can be misleading to people thinking that becoming a commercial herp breeder is a walk in the park and a sure thing.

I have people contact me every year looking to buy groups of animals with the goal of breeding them several years later, and relying on that income so they can quit their day job and do this full time.

I started out breeding corns around 1978. The reason I did that was different from most people. Somewhere I read that one sure way to determine if animals in captivity are well acclimated was if they will successfully breed in the unnatural surroundings they are being kept in. So heck, I was curious to know if my corn snakes were happy with the way I've been treating them. Oh yeah! They were apparently VERY happy!

Around that time, I didn't have a clue that there was anyone else in the world really much interesting in snakes. The thought of people actually buying them from me was foreign. Repugnant, actually, as I felt it would be 'dirty' to sell them. But there was a local pet shop owner that upon hearing my attitude said something that changed my point of view. He said "Rich, there is nothing wrong about people wanting to pay you money for something you are good at." So with that in mind, I put a couple ads in the local paper, sold to a couple of pet shops, and eventually discovered there were quite a few people out there with the same interest I had. Next thing I knew, I had people calling me up, and upon hearing that I didn't have anything for sale, to please put them on a list so they could buy from me next year. Now there was a novel idea! People actually lining up to BUY snakes from me.

One thing led to another, and next thing I knew I was sending out lists to people of expected hatchlings. Things got out of hand when I started getting price list requests from all over the WORLD. You mean people actually had an interest in snakes in other countries? Most of the snakes I was selling were winding up going to a semi-local guy by the name of Larry Rouch who would buy up most of my stock. This was fine with me, but of course, the numbers I was producing continued to increase until I passed the point where he could absorb most of them.

Anyway, by 1985 I was thinking that Rich Zuchowski, Private Breeder, just didn't cut it anymore, so that is when the name 'SerpenCo' was born. I wanted a name that would be instantly recognizable by people interested in serpents, but yet I could order supplies from some hardware or tool company and not have to explain why I have this crazy notion about breeding *snakes* to everyone I talk to.

It wasn't until this past year, October as a matter of fact, that I finally quit my day job to do this full time. Even then, if it hadn't been for a change in upper management at my job doing programming for the State of Florida and the new boss telling my direct boss that my telecommuting had to end, I would probably still be working there today. Killing myself trying to hold down two full time jobs.

So the point of this long dissertation is to point out that I had no intention of becoming a professional corn snake breeder. To the contrary. This became a business in spite of me, not because of me. Customers have always come to me to buy my animals. I am NOT a salesman and would flop badly if I had to chase down prospective customers and try to SELL them my snakes. At shows, I put the snakes out on the tables in their deli cups and people pick up what they want and pay for them. People BUY lots of snakes from me, but I can't recall ever really SELLING anything.

Oh yeah, back to the point: I have been doing this for about 24 years now (1978 - 2002). It is ONLY now, after all this time that I felt that there is an outside chance that I can make a fair living at doing this full time. And I'm still scared to death thinking that my entire source of income relies on the romantic interludes of a bunch of corn snakes. So much could go wrong, and so many things could sink me almost over night. But I'm 52 years old, and I was put in the position of having to choose between my safe and secure state job, of giving up something I have done for far too long to even think of giving up. No, my choice was a no-brainer to me, but some people would think I actually have no brain and chose the wrong one. Ask me 10 years from now and I'll let you know if I did or not.

DO NOT plan on starting out with this, making a name for yourself that will be a household name in a couple of years, and you will be able to quit your day job and do this full time. At least not if you like to have money available to buy things other than necessities to keep your business afloat. Also, get all of the vacations you can RIGHT NOW, because once you reach the point to where you have enough animals to actually make a business of it, vacations will be history. Connie and I used to take vacations at three weeks at a time, twice a year. Hah! Now, our idea of a vacation is that pleasant Saturday night between two day shows when all of the animals we brought with us are locked up in a room somewhere and we CAN'T get in there to clean and feed them.

Heck, guess I really rambled on here, huh? Got to close this down and get some work done before the day drags on too much longer............

Pardon any errors, but I'm not going to proofread this one.....

 

[kathylove]

Extra females should cost more (IMHO) (very long)

For many years, I struggled to convince people to buy in pairs. I just ended up with either unhappy customers or a bunch of males at the end of the year, some of which had to be sold a sale prices or held for WAY too long. But why shouldn't the customer get EXACTLY what they want, as long as they are willing to pay for it? Supply and demand suggests that if males are less in demand and females more so, then they should be priced accordingly. Since they hatch roughly 50/50 and most people want 1.2 or 1.3 - 2.4 or 2.6 groups, it's obvious what will be in short supply.

Somebody asked about missed single female sales. What about the missed pair sales at the end of the year when I have only males left? People are beginning to realize that it will be harder to pair up the single male later, so sometimes they pass on the single males unless they just want a pet.

I think it would be a logical policy to give people what they want and also be fair to the breeder, who wants to avoid being stuck with extra males.

About the sticky problems: I usually will allow "pairs" of 2 different types (say okeetees and sunglows, etc) at the pair price IF the customer allows me to choose which one will be the female. Then I can "even out" whichever type is running more ahead on males or females. Abd if somebody buys a male at the normal pair price and wants a female later the same year, I usually give it to them at the pair price. But sometimes I gave them the male at a discount - then I can't do it. Each is a case by case basis. I feel I try to be as fair as possible.

If somebody has a better, more fair suggestion, I would love to hear it and will certainly consider it.

Thanks, Rich, for bringing this problem to public attention.

 

[Colleen]

Un-related pairs...........hmmm

I'm not sure if this would help your situation but I thought that by buying from both you and Kathy( or Don S.) that I would then have completely unrelated snakes. After talking with Kathy I realized that you guys swap alot so the male I get from Kathy and the female I get from you may be more closely related than if I had asked either of you for a pair from different clutches! I'm pretty new to all this so maybe it's one of those "common knowledge" things that I just hadn't heard yet, but there are several posts in this thread refering to unrelated pairs. (I have also heard this numerous times on the different forums.)

If I'm way off base then just ignore me and tell me to keep my newbe ideas to myself!LOL Just a thought anyway!

Colleen