The purchase of lone or extra females..

[Darin Chappell]

A friend of mine had a bloodred male that had been a proven producer for him. I wanted some bloodreds, so I went about to find bloodred females last year (good luck!)). I was only able to find two girls, one het for bloodred and the other a possible het for bloodred, from Kathy Love. Now, this was before she raised her price on lone females, but I CERTAINLY would have understood her reasoning and paid the price anyway because i needed those females for this spring. Now, that male has since died in my buddy's care and I am left with no male to breed to these females. So, I bought a bloodred male from Don Sodorberg, and I picked up the steal of a lifetime on an amel bloodred male. I also have a 1.1 pair of hypo bloodreds from Rich coming in August. I'll be switched (time tested hillbilly saying there) if I have a spring where I have NOTHING to breed to waiting females!

Go ahead and raise your prices if you need to, Rich. Just remember to give those of us who have supported you in this that *special* discount on our multi-pair purchases in the future


Darin

P.S. For those who might not know this little trick, if you take some shavings from the tank of one male and put them in with a reluctant 1.1 pair, the hesitant male will often be spurred on to performance by the "competitor" smell lurking about. Just a thought!

 

[SilverTongue]

I just have to ask a question. What do yall base the cost of your snakes on. Granted i know some breeds are tougher to come by because you have to get the right pair together at the right time, but what do yall base the price on? Example.... I have seen '02 blizzards range from $40-$85. Sure you can say well they dont have the cool breeding my snakes do and the nice bloodline... But think about it really....They most likely got their blizzards from one of you big breeders in the first place. So it wuopuld be basically the same. I just wanted to know it there was a better reason other then bloodlines to explain the cost hike with some of the bigger breeders.

 

[Colleen]

Bloodline = quality

What your saying is true but I have seen Candy Canes here that were from SMR parents(she says anyway) that are a far cry from the ones that you would get from one of the bigger breeds like Rich. You may luck out and get a stunning animal for the bargain price but in my experience you'd better see at least a photo first! Also the little breeder will be hard pressed to replace your animal if there happens to be something wrong thing it. I like the comfort of the big breeders guarentees. Also their name does carry their reputations for quality stock. If you are looking to breed and hopefully sell your babies for alittle profit that means alot.( don't worry Rich I have no plans to quit my day job! I would like to at least make enough to support my hobby. BTW if you can tell me how to get out of being a Mom/ Teacher/ Home Manager I'd love to know how, at least long enough for a bubble bath!)

I for one am more than willing to pay the extra dime to ensure I get healthy, quality animals! And don't forget, if you have a problem like your baby won't eat, who would you rather call on for advice?

JMHO!


Colleen

Ps Can't believe I forgot this part... The big breeders have also put countless hours/years into making their Corns up to the high quality they are and should be paid for their efforts. If they didn't produce the numbers they do and all that involves, then there wouldn't be people with a pair of there animals to breed and then sell at cut rate prices! Thats why they can do that THIER time wasn't put into making that cultivar and refining it!

Silver Tongue..sounds harsh not meant too!

 

[Rich Z]

One thing that probably not many new people in this realize, is that there is not, in most cases, any such thing as 'unrelated' pairs when you are talking about genetic cultivars. Unless someone else spontaneously produced another line of Lavenders, or Caramels, or Blood Reds, or Stripes, etc, they are ALL related in some fashion. It can be no other way. The thing you have to consider is how close are you to the root stock when you want to buy YOUR breeding stock?

This, in a fashion, will answer SilverTonque's question. Let's take for example the Caramel (Butter) corns. I produced the very first ones back in 1991. As far as I know ALL Caramels/Butters that exist on this planet today came from the original animal I got that was a wild caught animal that probably carried this gene. I say 'probably' because a spontaneously produced genetic trait is certainly possible and I can't rule that out. In which case, those original few that hatched out then were the original ancestors of ALL Caramels/Butters today. I have been outcrossing and breeding Caramels/Butters from the beginning, and in the process have developed multiple lines of them to work with. The earlier you start with something new, the more time you have to produce multiple generations of this strain, as well as get lines that are further and further removed from the original root stock.

Ordinarily, when someone buys a pair of offspring from the originator, the new owner will grow up this pair, breed them together and then offer those offspring for sale. They are directly related, no doubt about it. Someone else buys a pair from this person, grows them up, breeds them, then offers yet another generation of offspring for sale. And so on and so on. See what I mean? The most likely source of the most unrelated stock POSSIBLE normally will come from the originator of the genetic stock. Without interrogating everyone else on the upper branches of the tree to find the EXACT path their stock came from, this is the safest way to get stock that is as unrelated as possible.

And yes, the originator is probably going to charge more for his/her animals. Not only for the reason mentioned above, but they will also have a substantial head start on selectively breeding that cultivar to enhance the positive aspects of that strain that perhaps were only hinted at in the original generation. Guess what? They probably kept the best ones for themselves, and used those animals to produce subsequent generations.

So what the decision may often be is buying an animal for $15 from someone whom perhaps bought one of the adults at a local pet shop and isn't too sure if it's an Okeetee, but it sure looks like one, or paying twice or more than that from someone whom has been selectively breeding them for generations and can tell you with reasonable certainty that at least some of the blood running through that animals veins came from an animal that was captured on Okeetee Hunt Club back in the early '80s.

As for Colleen's question, yes you have hit a nail right on the head that many people haven't even known about. Personally, I like doing herp shows that are BIG and well attended with a lot of vendors. Why? Because a LOT of my business is to other vendors. Substantially so. Several years ago, I had an amusing incident take place at a show. I was working with Honduran milk snakes at the time and as always other vendors would stop by our tables during setup. We normally sell animals before the doors ever open up, and I just assumed this person liked the looks of my Hondurans and wanted them for his own stock. Anyway after that show was over and we were back home, I got a call from someone whom sounded kind of baffled. At that time, I used to put a sticker on the bottom of the deli cups identifying SerpenCo as the source of the animal purchased. Well this person had bought a single Honduran Milk Snake from me and then went off to check the other tables to try to find an unrelated mate. He said that when he got home, he was trying to remember which he got from which vendor and noticed that the deli cup he was looking at had my sticker on the bottom of it. But then he checked the other one, and my sticker was on that cup as well. So apparently all that other vendor did was to put my snakes on his table and resell them.

Also, when many breeders run short of some animals to sell, a lot of them will buy from other breeders and resell that stock to fill their own orders. This will certainly be an eye opener for a lot of people. And before you ask, NO, I personally do not buy animals for resale nor broker other people's animals.

Let's face it people. There is a core group of corn snake breeders in this country that have been working and breeding corn snakes for longer than some of you have even been alive. What are the chances that you can even FIND a non-normal colored or patterned corn snake that DOESN'T have an ancestor somewhere that came from one of us?

 

[Bippy]

Pricing...

I've actually seen lavenders at a show last year for $75. I guess that's probably all the local market will bear, but still... pretty cheap for one of the more recent morphs out there. If I'dve been able to get one of them at the time, I probably would have.

I think my biggest problem is I have a greater interest in some of the higher-end morphs, and can't afford to get 2.2 of everything. Most of what I have is either 0.1 or 1.0, with a few 2.0/0.2's. Oh well. Someday.

 

[drwatts]

Very interesting discussion here. I especially enjoyed the historical post by Rich. Surprised to hear that you only recently have quite your other job; must be a type- A personality; sound too much like work to me.

As many have stated ,and I comply, You (Rich) should not feel guilty about allowing the market forces of supply and demand (that this great capalist country has been built upon) dictate your pricing structure. Price as high as the market will bear, all these years of work should provide a monatary benefit. You agruably have the most reconizable name in the business (you and Cathy anyway), and deserve the higher profit margin which corresponds with notability.

One thing you may want to consider when someone request a lone female or females is that this is a sale you may not have made if they were not offered as such. So you may be benefiting and making more sales based on your policies; maybe going with the trend may be unwise. If you are selling all your females quickly and turning customers away as the year progresses you are probably selling them too inexpensively.

Take care.

 

[kathylove]

Pricing

Somebody wanted to know how a breeder decides a price. In my case, it is mostly my customers who decide, via the old supply and demand rule. Although I generally try to stay "in the ballpark" with most of the other breeders, some of my morphs will be higher or lower than others for a simple reason. I am either selling out too quickly, or have way too many leftover at the end of the season, probably because I produce too few of some and too many of others. Of course, the demand changes from year to year, but usually trends can be predicted. So I have to adjust prices up or down according to the previous year's sales. Unlike most products and services, you will see reptile breeder's prices going down sometimes, not just always up, up, up! (Unlike the electricity, mouse food, or other expenses incurred!)

Each breeder has a particular market and quantity mix of morphs, and a breeding and marketing strategy that(hopefully) works for him or her. That's why prices will always vary from one source to another. Sometimes it may have to do with quality or color, etc. Other times it is just a response to the market.

 

[SilverTongue]

Do any of you all breeders attend any Texas shows?

 

[Alicia]

Usually if you check out their websites they have posted the shows that they attend each year. You can also check the website of the show and see if they have a list of vendors posted.

Alicia

 

[Clint Boyer]

I like this forum............

It's a good way to get a different perspective on the industry. It's really hard to imagine what goes on behind the scenes at a large scale breeders facility (until you've walked a few miles in thier shoes!).

There is a wealth of info here for everyone whether you're projects are intended to produce income or just for fun. I've made my share of mistakes but also had more help then I probably deserved.

I sure hope some of the other large scale breeders decide to participate!

 

[Hurley]

Hear, hear!

It's a good way to get a different perspective on the industry. It's really hard to imagine what goes on behind the scenes at a large scale breeders facility (until you've walked a few miles in thier shoes!).

There is a wealth of info here for everyone whether you're projects are intended to produce income or just for fun. I've made my share of mistakes but also had more help then I probably deserved.

I sure hope some of the other large scale breeders decide to participate!

I agree. I hope the Rogue's Gallery Grows. I have learned a tremendous amount of information form the corn forums, and continue to learn more every day. It never ceases to amaze me how the "big guns" will go out of their way to help out us 'little people'. I'd like to send out a big thank you to everyone for making this a great forum.

 

[Gregg]

Forgive Me Father, For I have Sinned...

This thread is beginning to sound like a group confessional.

Well, I guess I'd better jump in and say a "Hell, Mary!" Or two myself.

I usually buy corns in pairs. And not because two ears are better than one; although that probably is true. And not because I want to be a millionaire. Well, actually, I do want to be a millionaire, but I'd have a better chance of being a snowball in Hell, than getting that much money selling snakes.

____________________I'm a hobbyist.

My son wanted a snake. Since he was five, when I bought him his first corn snake, I had to be the one to care for the new family addition. Soon, it became another hobby for me. I don't mind. It gives me a very relaxing break from my other hobbies-turned-occupations (bonsai, playing the drum set in three bands, and trimming Japanese gardens). Whenever I buy corns, I buy pairs, because I have a habit of buying things in pairs. It's a Libra thing. It started with my wanting to buy only a mate for the "Old Man," but then I discovered all those beautiful corn snakes that Kathy Love and Rich Zuchowski sell. Now, whenever I buy a new snake, I buy a pair--Yen/Yang, Male/Female, Duality In Nature.


Anyway, whenever I have bought a single snake it has been either because: 1) that was all there was available, 2) the morph was too expensive for me to buy two, Or 3), because I had one, for which I was buying a mate, and the one I had died and now another has to be bought. >>By the way, Rich, if I had known before-hand that the two snakes I bought for $110.00 each were going to be each $35.00 dollars cheaper if I waited for the 2002 babies, I would have waited and bought a pair each!<< Oh well, I guess buying a Lone Female is out of the question now!

Another reason I buy pairs is because my son has been after me for Game-Boys, Nintendos, X-Boxes, Game Cubes, and all their games for the past two years. Anyone with children knows what I mean. As a father--and as both a lazy and stingy bastard--it is my job to NOT just give my son a blackened catfish to eat for dinner, but to teach him to fish for his own damn food and cook it. Raising corn snakes is far more enjoyable [to me] than mixing limonade and sitting out in the hot sun. Selling plants is out too. I have been unsuccessful in getting him interested in growing plants of any kind. So, If I buy corn snakes in pairs, I might be able to kill two birds at once. One, I could teach him how to raise his own money and operate his own business if we are successful in producing any babies at all. And two, whether we are successful or not, I can teach him all about the Birds and the Bees and Life and Death. That lesson has begun with the death of two of our females--which died, by the way, for no apparent reason.

Would I pay more for a lone female? Yes, if I wanted that female and did have to pay more to get her, but naturally, I would prefer to pay less for a pair. Am I out to make a big name for myself in the breeding business? No, so I would prefer to buy a replacement female for the price I paid when I bought the pair.

Wonder what would happen if you asked for double the price on
Males?

 

[Rich Z]

Wonder what would happen if you asked for double the price on males?

In such a case, I guess it would be better to sell the females at double the price of males and give away a free male with every female purchased.

Or another way to look at it would be to go ahead and buy a pair, even if you only need a female and sell off the male yourself. In many cases, you might wind up much better off than paying a surcharge for that lone female.

Or another strategy may be to require the purchaser to buy one of my wife's leopard geckos with each lone or extra female corn snake they buy. That would certainly make my wife happy! I've taken up most of her space with the corn snake eggs this year and she's just about out of room anyway.

Sigh...... I sure do wish we could control the sexes of the offspring like we do with leopard geckos. Would make things a whole lot easier.

 

[SilverTongue]

I know you have been doing this for a while so i am sure you have tried this but i have to ask....

Have you tried ajusting the tempatures of the eggs? I heard from some animal show that alligators can decide the sex of their offspring by ajusting the tempature. I think the hotter they are they become female. But I am not sure.. You would have to reasearch it and then give it a try. It couldnt hurt (as long as the temps dont get too high or too low for the eggs survival)

 

[Matt L]

originally posted by Rich Z.

Or another strategy may be to require the purchaser to buy one of my wife's leopard geckos with each lone or extra female corn snake they buy. That would certainly make my wife happy!

Rich,
Well that sounded like a good plan!-So I thought I would give it a little test--you know--run it by my wife. Now I'm all for keeping our better halves happy, but it looks like I'll stick with pairs or pay the extra for a lone female. Mine mumbled something about "any more hobbies--edit,edit,edit"--Maybe my timing was off--5:30am sat morn.

Seriously, I would gladly pay extra for a lone female if that is what I needed.

Matt L.

 

[Susan]

I've learned the lesson the hard way

As a "newbie" hobbiest breeder, having been breeding corns for only 6 years, I've learned the lessons the hard way. Having only a limited budget to buy new morphs, I usually only get 1.1, and often, at least one of the pair is "just" a het. My attempt to bring Lavenders into my collection ended with 2 dead hatchlings. My Butter male, having excaped just before brumation, sent me into a panic. Luckily, I found him just after Rich told me that he could sell me another one, but before I could close the sale. I now wish I had taken Rich up on his offer since my female Caramel het butter produced 0/zilch/nada eggs, not even slugs, after I witnessed 2 matings. (I know the male is fertile since he fathered 3 clutches last year). And my Caramel het amber refused to accept him. My amber male died last year and the replacement male isn't old enough yet. And the female amber I purchased with the new male also died this spring.
And keeping an entire clutch isn't even a guarantee. I kept the entire 5.7 hatchlings from my amel zigzag X butter pairing last year. I am down to 0.5 since the clutch had alot of problem feeders.
After reading this thread in it's entirety, I'm going to make a few changes in what I plan on keeping from this years hatchlings, as well as what I hope to buy this year in Daytona, finances permitting. Now if I can just find a buyer for my neonate boas...$$$...more corns !!!

 

[Bippy]

I wish I could afford to buy 2.2 of everything, but I've been somewhat pressed for both money and space (moreso the latter).

My strategy has been to mostly buy morphs that can pair up with several other morphs and get interesting results. For example, I have a female snow, a male ghost, and a male anery, so if one of the males died or was infertile, I could still get some interesting hatchlings. It may mean I won't be able to get the fancier morphs if one of my more expensive snakes dies, but if I'm really desparate for something, then I guess I'll bite the bullet and pay the cost to buy an adult from a breeder.

I guess the biggest necessity if you're short on money/space is patience. If you absolutely HAVE to have butters hatch out THIS YEAR, or whatever, then if you lose your breeder, you're stuck paying high $$ for adults. If you're willing to be patient and raise up another hatchling, and breed the surviving snake(s) to some other morph in the meantime, then there's far less stress involved. And who knows... that amel you breed the caramel het butter to could just have some hidden genetics.

 

[LindsayMarie]

I can relate!

I wish I could afford to buy 2.2 of everything, but I've been somewhat pressed for both money and space (moreso the latter).

My strategy has been to mostly buy morphs that can pair up with several other morphs and get interesting results.

I too would LOVE to buy 2.2 of everything but the needed space alone to do this would probably be a little too much. Not to mention most of my interests are on the higher demand morphs that cost quite a bit! I too have spent many many hours trying to find morphs that can be mixed and matched. Its not always easy to do that though! That usually means trying to find morphs that are triple and quad het!! I guess it probably wouldnt be as hard to find a normal triple or quad het but trying to find a butter or lavender triple or quad het is pretty difficult if not impossible! My dilema is trying to breed the lavender lines AND butter lines. They just dont seem to entertwine (so to speak). Finding two males that can be bred with any one of the 4 females (2fem butter line and 2fem lavender line) and get butters, ambers, caramels, lavenders, amels, anerys, hypos, etc! Instead of just normals (het) hasnt been easy for me. Plus I am picky and want all 6 corns to be a different morph themselves so that my collection is colorful too. I hope I have made sense and didnt sound like I was just rambling! If anyone has any ideas for me that would be great too. Take care, Lindsay

 

[HomeBreeder]

doesn't sound crazy to me, Lindsay....

As some of you know, I've been setting the foundation to start a "home business" breeding a few herps (leo's, goldens, & "skunks" for geckos, corns for snakes, no amphibians yet.) I'd love to be able to breed each and every morph but not only is that daunting as a neophyte, but the common problem of space is obviously at issue as well - I'm doing this project out of a spare bedroom and my living room, lol (thank god for my wonderful wife for going along with this cockeyed plan.) but to get back to the point, I'm trying to keep a limited scope on my range of projects not only for my sanity, but also so my wife and I still have a place to sleep. As with you, I am trying to collect snakes that "mix and match" nicely with each other, and not exclusively 1.1 or 2.2 sets. That said, I'm STILL going to have at least 50 snakes by the end of summer once you add the unhatched snakes from Rich, Kathy, John, and Don that I'm anticipating into my collection.

50 snakes! But being realistic, I also must admit that this is but the tip of the icecberg, because next summer that number will probably double as I holdback snakes for my "advanced" breeding projects (i.e. trying to out-cross some of my lines, or combine traits from different lines.) That reminds me, I need to start budgeting for an insulated/heated out-building where I can house the holdbacks as well as the hatchlings next year....

I don't know what the lesson is, but maybe you'll find this info handy...

 

[Serpwidgets]

The thing I like about being small-time...

The down side is that I can't go with 2.2 of everything I want, or 3.3 for double hets. But it makes me think a lot harder about what I need to get, what pairs to breed, etc. I think that the planning is most of the fun, and keeps me into the breeding aspect of the hobby year-round.

The other thing is that I can go with 1.1, or even work from oddball het pairings. I don't breed to make money, I breed so that I can produce stuff I really like, and hopefully push that particular look in the direction that suits my tastes. Whatever hatches hatches, and if there's something I really love, it's mine.

It doesn't pay the bills, so I don't have to get stressed or lose sleep over it.

Ok, I don't have to, but I still do.