Ultra Mystery...

[Rich Z]

Heck, why not kick a hornet's nest?

You know, I REALLY like that term "ultramel". It rolls off the tongue real well and rolls around in my mind easily. But I sure wish I could consolidate the technical disection of the term with what we are referring it to.

Amel - short for amelanistic. The prefix 'a' being used to negate, or indicate a negative condition of the word it precedes. ie atypical, atypical. In our typical usage, amelanism indicates the complete lacking or absense of melanin.

hypomel - short for hypomelanistic. The prefix 'hypo' being used to indicate less then, subordinate, beneath, or below. e. hypodermic, hypoglycemia. In our typical usage, hypomelanism indicates a reduction in or lower than normal amount of melanin.

ultramel - short for ultramelanistic? The prefix 'ultra' means something excessive, to an extreme degree. ie ultramodern, ultraconservative. Also meaning beyond or on the further side of. ie ultraviolet. In our current usage, what does 'ultra' have to do with describing the relation of the look of this trait with melanin? Literally interpretting the term, if I had only just seen it without the background where the name popped up, my assumption would be that ultramel is describing an exceptionally DARK or black looking animal.

Sorry, but this has been rattling around in my head for quite a while just as a nagging sensation whenever I saw the term being used. But being thick into my busy season just didn't allow it to surface to where I could just sit back and think about it. As much as I really like the term, the animal we are describing with it just doesn't fit what the term SHOULD be describing. IMHO..... :duck:

 

[ecreipeoj]

You know, I REALLY like that term "ultramel". It rolls off the tongue real well and rolls around in my mind easily. But I sure wish I could consolidate the technical disection of the term with what we are referring it to.

Well, thank you Rich. I think it rolls off of the tongue as well.

We don’t need to decipher any meaning from the term Ultramel. It is simply a Het for Ultra and Amel. which are known and used names for particular morphs that are alleles.

It is an in-between snake that is a result of two morphs being on the same allele, that are co-dominant to each other. The result is an in-between morph between the morph Ultra Hypo and Amel , which is an Ultramel.

I have one, and the name is very descriptive of a Het for Amel and Ultra hypo. Ultramel is simply a joining of two alleles, which are co-dominant to each other which produces a phenotype which is in-between the two morphs involved. It is a ruby eyed Amel and a het for Amel and Ultra.

Not quite an Amel, but more than an Ultra Hypo. It is an ULTRAMEL!

It is nothing more than an "allele" of the two common names of Ultra Hypo and Amel. Squish them together and we get ULTRAMEL. An "allelle" of the common names of Ultra and Amel. Ultraamel or Ultramel? Ultramel rolls off the tongue and has the meaning of Het Ultra and Amel.

 

[Hurley]

Or you could just do what they do with 95% of words when combining them for medical use and truncate a portion of the word and slam it into a combo with other portions.

Ultr- = prefix denoting ultra hypomelanism

amel = denoting amelanism

--->ultr-amel...ultramel.

Goes both ways and is arguing semantics. If we want to get technical about names being applied that may be interpreted as not being correct, we could open up that whole bloodred debate again.

:duck:

 

[ecreipeoj]

!!

If we want to get technical about names being applied that may be interpreted as not being correct, we could open up that whole bloodred debate again. :duck:

NO, NO not that! a Bloodred Corn is a "Trudlefart Corn" I am sure of it!

Just wait until we gaze upon a "Striped Trudlefart Ice Lavender"!

I think I am dreaming in color or is it pattern? In either case, we will see this morph, I am sure of it.

 

[SODERBERGD]

Well, Rich . . .

It's finally more than official. It's obvious. That name has been bugging me too. The "obvious" part is that Rich and Don truly are the oldest guys in this profession. In apparent "old" fashion, that name has been sticking in my craw too. I kept thinking they were talking about the albino versions of the ultra gene. I still expect red eyes each time I read the name ultramel. If you and I are not the only ones seeing this, perhaps a more readily descriptive name should be researched. I don't mind compound names, but this one doesn't apply to the snake unless (as it has been suggested by me), my age predisposes me to expect more obvious names. When this got voted upon, were there any other suggestions? I must have been absent that day.

 

[CAV]

my assumption would be that ultramel is describing an exceptionally DARK or black looking animal.

I’m actually in complete agreement with your translation, Rich. It is initially confusing when taken at face value.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Again, I think the problem arises from combining made up names, ie...Butter, Caramel, Lava and/or ULTRA with the more technical side, ie...hypo, amel, anery etc. etc.

Not that it can't be done or is wrong, just that it combines the two and is either a cool made up name on the one hand, or inaccurate on the other technical hand.

I do agree that Ultra means an over abundance, so Ultra hypo must mean a whole lot of not much? :sidestep:

 

[Hurley]

Well, we could call them ultra/amel's then, like stripe/motley's. ...Or trundlefart, reallyultra, reallyreallyultra, superultra (what else is more ultra than ultra?), almostamelbutnotquiteultra, quaziultra, thedietcokeofultra, or the most descriptive yet "heterozygous for both the amelanism gene and the ultra hypo gene". Whatever they're called, it's going to have to be explained the first time just like all the other names. IMO ultramel actually makes the job easier when explaining the Ultra/Amel allele theory to people, much easier than "Snigglefritz Corns" or most of the others listed above. An ultramel is genotypically an ultra + amel. Phenotypes may vary with ultras being lighter than some ultramels, but ultramel is the genotype, the heterozygous form.

Ultra-amel just doesn't roll off the tongue, either, and still would lead newbies to believe it's a snake that's just really, really, really amel. Plus, you can bet it'll get truncated to ultramel anyway, it sounds better and is easier to get off the tongue. It goes back to the bloodred philosophy of "there's always terminology in any hobby that you have to learn the definitions of as it applies to the hobby." NO term is ever going to satisfy everyone, that much is obvious from this thread and the many threads out there on the debates over morph names.

Kind of puts me in mind of the thought that anery's should be called axanthics because they seem to lack normal xanthophores (pigment cells producing the reds and yellows) whereas caramels should be called the true anerythristics since they are the ones lacking red pigment.
(also expounded upon in Bechtel's book, and I agree with him, but realize it's too late to get the whole corn world to change now, we fear change)

I know I've never been able to come up with a name that has ever satisfied Rich or Don or CAV or Clint or Kat, (that's not meant to be picking on people or said in a sarcastic tone, it's just reality going from past discussions). Speaking for myself, I'm open to suggestions of the perfect name. Does anyone have something in mind that you like better? :shrugs:

We have to call them something... ?

 

[SODERBERGD]

Opening a new can O worms . .

. . . but anerythristics do have yellow on them. That's why I thougth axanthic (no yellow) was not as accurate. To my thinking, anerythristic is more accurate in that scenario.

 

[Clint Boyer]

I'm not a good namer, my contributions are pretty slim. I usually play devil's advocate and try to russtle up some things to think about.

For example: Why argue so strongley for a substitute name for an "inacurrate" name like Bloodred but then support "Ultramel" when it is equally inaccurate? The arguement is almost identical.

I think the problem arises because there has never been any real guidelines for names of morphs. It's probably way to late, we'd have to rename most of the variations we know today. Personally, Ultramel is OK with me.

 

[Hurley]

Axanthic on a cell level means that the xanthophores aren't producing pigment. Xanthophores are responsible for producing red and yellow phaeomelanin granules to give our corns their rich yellows/oranges/reds. The yellow that comes up under the chin later in life as far as I have been able to ascertain comes from a build up of carotenoids (like carotene, and other yellow pigments from the diet). Carotenoids are stored, not made. Shrug. Why it happens there predominantly, I don't know. Depends now on whether you want to get all technical when speaking of the pigments that the corns produce or what. I do know that that yellow under their chin that developes later in life is of a different tone than the yellows we see from the pigment cells, especially evident on my butter where the yellow under the chin was completely visible on her yellow background as a separate color. I also suspect that if it were possible to feed a corn a diet completely devoid of carotenoids that the yellow would never show up. Since we are feeding them animals which are plant eaters, this will probably never happen. :shrugs:

Point is, they are not solely anerythristic either, but a caramel is. They are axanthic in that their xanthophores are not functioning to produce their pigments properly. On that note, I don't think this excludes those cells from their ability to take up carotenoids and store them.

Doesn't really matter, I'm not proposing to change the names. It's how I learned them, it's how everyone out there knows them, it works for the definition we choose to apply to the words. Just like most of the English language.

 

[Hurley]

For example: Why argue so strongley for a substitute name for an "inacurrate" name like Bloodred but then support "Ultramel" when it is equally inaccurate? The arguement is almost identical.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing in inverse. Why argue so strongly FOR bloodred for a pattern trait, yet go up in arms when a name the way you read it doesn't quite fit.

I have to disagree with the equally inaccurate part.

Personally, I think the name ultramel as a truncated form of ultra + amel is accurate. It denotes the two genes in the same animal. Like I said, depends on how you choose to read the word.

Heh, and yeah, Clint, you do your role well.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Personally, Ultramel is OK with me.

Ahhhh, but you see, I don't flip/flop. I accept the Ultramel name.

Like I said, depends on how you choose to read the word.

Exactly, Ultramel reads to me/others Ultra-mel or ultra melanistic. :shrugs:

:grin01: :grin01: :grin01:

 

[Rich Z]

Kind of puts me in mind of the thought that anery's should be called axanthics because they seem to lack normal xanthophores (pigment cells producing the reds and yellows) whereas caramels should be called the true anerythristics since they are the ones lacking red pigment.
(also expounded upon in Bechtel's book, and I agree with him, but realize it's too late to get the whole corn world to change now, we fear change)

Fortunately I sidestepped that issue by using a non-technical name for the Caramels. And truthfully, I am inclined more and more to name things descriptively rather than technically. Probably because technical labels can sometimes be confusing or just plain wrong when future inspection looks deeper into the subject. Extrapolating a known new gene with the combos, such as "Hypo Caramel" and "Amelanistic Caramel", while certainly letting the reader know the techical aspects of what they really are, just are not as satisfying to my mind as naming them "Ambers", and "Butters', instead.

Obviously when we get to such things as Hypomelanistic Lavender Caramel Blood Reds, something is going to have to give anyway. I am part way there already, wondering what they heck I can name those Amber Bloodreds I produced this year. At the very least, I want to see what full adults look like first.....

And no, I STILL haven't come up with a good name for Hypomelanistic Lavenders. Nothing just seems to come to mind.

 

[Hurley]

LOL, Ah you see, I'm not flip-flopping. To me, and others, ultramel reads as ultra+amel.

My point is, I've yet to see anyone come up with anything better. I'm still open to what the ultra-mel people wish to call the ultra-amel hets.

 

[SODERBERGD]

I agree with Connie, but . . .

When you tell a person in the industry that axanthic means no yellow, they wonder what color they're seeing on the chin of their anerythristic. I know you're right about the scientific functions, but to the average customer, when you say axanthic, it means they should not see yellow on their snake.

I agree that anerythristic is more accurate for caramels, but in a few more years, we'll come up with a snake that disputes all the terms we're using today. Genetics. Ya gotta love 'em. AND ya gotta hate 'em.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Just teasing about the flip/flop thing! :grin01:

It really is just a matter of what sticks when it comes right down to it. Even if either side could be proven right, the 'catchy' name will probably stick.

 

[Hurley]

Yep, that's why I'm perfectly content with caramel. It's descriptive for a color morph, it's catchy, it means what we say it means, and you can always follow it up with a genetic interpretation if the need warrants.

I'm with Rich, too, it's easier to refer to multiple morphed animals as some descriptive name. Amethyst corns, graphite corns, whatever, those names earn new definitions within the hobby as they get applied.

 

[Kat]

And no, I STILL haven't come up with a good name for Hypomelanistic Lavenders. Nothing just seems to come to mind.

What? You mean you can't think of a good name for a snake that's pink and purple or orange and purple?

How about 'Figment' corns? (Okay, okay, too Disney-esque...) Prismatic corns? Dunno. 'Pink Elephant' corns? :duck:

-Kat

 

[gardenmum]

Question

I have skimmed this thread before and briefly caught up on it once or twice, but really took time to go in depth into it today because of what Rich & Don wrote. So, when you are referring to Ultramel, you are referring to the het Ultra and het Amel on the same allele, correct? So, the hypo that is an Ultra is referred to as an Ultra or Ultra Hypo, what are the Amel offspring of an Ultra X Ultra breeding referred to as since they are co-dominant Ultra? I was a bit confused because when I skimmed it I thought you were referring to the Amel offspring that also carries the Ultra co-dominate gene as an Ultra Amel but shortening the name to Ultramel.
Not that it makes any difference to me in which way you refer to them, just wondering how we would refer to the Amel version.
Just want to make sure I am now taking this correctly or if I have mis-read and am off based here. Thanks.