Ultra Mystery...

[Serpwidgets]

Give me time, I'm just getting warmed up to the idea...... :roflmao:

How about for Blood Red Butter -> Blutter Corn?

And I am REALLY warming up to Blaramel Corn for Blood Red x Caramel, and Blamber Corn for Blood Red x Amber.

I do use "carmot" for caramel motley. I like it.

I don't think the system of coming up with names makes a name good or bad. Those are just devices used to aid the creative process. In the end, it's the name itself that is good or bad. Let me demonstrate by using Rich's technique of coming up with absurd names:

We shouldn't use locations as a precedent, someone might call them Finland. :shrugs:

We shouldn't use a person's name, the discoverer might be named Green. :grin01:

We shouldn't use a color, the color chosen for the name might be Blue.

And Jennifer Lopez shouldn't be called J-Lo because someone might be named Anthony Bumper, Paul Offo, Brad Dumbrowski, Oliver Shihtzer, Gary Spotter, Isaac Bloakowski, or Isaiah Benjamin Toffington. And I’m pretty sure such a naming convention also won’t be appreciated by Ursula Horton, Pamela Headley, Ulysses Dickens, Charles Mendelev, Richard Donner, or the Ewing twins: Patrick and Frank.

Sure, go ahead and laugh. But I can assure you that it is not funny to Penny Holden. She and her brother may not agree about most things, but when it comes to this issue, you can be sure that Aaron is right behind her. :eek1:

 

[pewter]

what means Trundlefart :shrugs:

 

[gardenmum]

Not exactly. Ultra X Butter = 100% Ultramels het Caramel. Ultra X Amel = 100% Ultramels.

Yes, thank you Joe. I realized that after I asked that and added the "Now I understand" part but didn't expond on it. It took a bit of working around the brain cells to get a grip on it all, but I see it now. Thank you to you and Kat for your replies. It was a bit of reading on this thread and not easy to grasp it all going through it with all its shifing in content, so I'm glad I decided to ask.
It was like a light came on all of a sudden and I could see how this was working. Thanks, both of you, for helping to "flip the switch".
Being that ultra and amel are on the same allele, obviously there can be no hets for either, forgot to put that into context. But what I was not putting into the picture at all, was the Ultra Vs the Ultra/Amel. I was always thinking all the time that all Ultra's were Ultra/Amels but see where I was forgetting to put the horse before the cart.

SERP, I like your tri-picture pictorial. Now, the Ultra, to me, looks very much like any hypo. So, is there any way to tell if you have an Ultra other than knowing it has to be one by its parentage? Or is it strickly "breeding trials will tell ya" type of thing? And, in breeding an Ultra/Amel to a Butter, what are the percentages of offspring, is it 50% Utra/amel, 25% Ultra, 25% amel? I am still fuzzy on this because if you breed a "normal" hypo to a butter you get all het butter & hypo, if you breed an amel to a butter you get all amel het caramel, and if I use Kat's saying that it is essentially a normal het hypo het amel (both on the same allele) then I would basically come up with 50% amel (or in this case Utra/Amel), and 50% normal, but seeing this morph works differently, a little help, please. I need a little more of that light turned on, I guess...LOL Well...I think Mick's Progeny Predictor is going to need some major overhaulling in the near future.

I have to say, I'm not excited over the Utramel name either but I do understand why it is a suggested name. Still makes me think I willl see an amel of some sort but don't have any other suggestions though.

CLINT, I think you have the best name for a Butter Blood..... :rofl: .....I can see that name plastered all over the tops of deli cups.....LOL. One happy customer to another on crowded elevator: "Hey, you wanna see my Buttred?" LOL.
I do use the name carmot all the time myself, it is easy, quick and to the point.

 

[Rich Z]

what means Trundlefart :shrugs:

Heck, I couldn't have come up with a better followup if I had tried..

 

[Serpwidgets]

Heck, I couldn't have come up with a better followup if I had tried..

Nice! :roflmao:

 

[gardenmum]

what means Trundlefart

LOL...

Pewter, back a while ago, this poem was written and put on the forum. Hope the "creators" don't mind me posting it. It was so cute and so funny, I saved it. I thought it was so well done.

This aught to tell you what a Trundlefart corn is....LOL.
NOTE: THE MYSELF at the bottom of who the writters are, I am not sure of right now, it was the person that put it on the thread, guess they'd have to say who they are.

The Cat in the Hat Buys a Cornsnake.

The show was for reptiles, they stood at the gate.
They’d gotten there early, had such a long wait.

The cat in the hat came to shop for a corn.
They all looked stupendous, he really was torn.

What should he get? And which was worth more?
And just at that instant, they opened the door.

Vendors abounded, they filled all the tables...
There's Juttle and Futtle, and Mr. Bimbable.

A banner announced a booth run by the Stues,
a flooglehorn called every one to the Yews’.

The crowd was released, and they raced for the tables.
Snatching up corn morphs, all that they were able.

Cruppulous caynies, vorpilious Vims,
Polimar's prussels, and Zuffles from Zim's.

Some cornsnakes were spotted, some cornsnakes were striped,
some cornsnakes were plaid and some cornsnakes were Jiped.

Brinters and Timbles and Bonnie-bee-Blues,
Gulliver Grimshots and bright Footels, too.

Some stood at one vendor, their faces forlorn.
“They already sold all the Trundlefart corns!”

Then in the great hall, there arose such a clatter,
That everyone turned, to see what was the matter.

And it was a vendor, against the back wall,
He stood on his table and shouted to all.

The man was all fuzzy, his fur was pale green.
His dark eyes were beady, his face looked quite mean.

He sang and he danced and he said, “Look at me,
I’ve got a corn called a Wimble-dee-fee!”

All crowded around him, a few were aghast.
Here was a new morph, a new morph at last!

The cat in the hat rubbed his chin with his hand.
"That new morph he sells is the best in the land."

"Astounding!" the crowd yelled. "Amazing, oh Gee!"
"What did he call it?" "A Whattle-dee-dee?"

"A Wimble-dee-what?" "No, a wimble-dee-fee.
A special new cornsnake discovered by me."

"I don’t mean to boast, or to toot my own horn,
But it’s a terrific, fantabulous corn!

Don’t know its genetics; I’ve hatched only one,
But now I have hets, and can hatch out a ton.

I hatched them myself, so I know that it’s true.
Just three hundred dollars, and you’ll have one, too.

Then breed them together, or breed to a het,
And you’ll be amazed at the hatchlings you get!"

While painting the picture, the money he saw,
But nobody realized, the picture was flawed.

It’s better than pewter, leucistic or ghost.
And if you like color, this one has the most.

They’re green with blue eyes, and a long curly nose,
The colors get vibrant, and bright as it grows.

Red scales on the belly, and white on the back,
The tail becomes yellow, and purple and black.

They play the piano, make sounds like a gong
I’m sure they will grow to be thirteen feet long.

Some furry with feathers, and spikes on their tails.
And some will grow antlers, but only the males.

If that’s not enough to be happy about,
Just wait three more sheds, and their legs will grow out!

"I’ll take it!" he shouted, and have it he must.
He loved it more dearly than Noobilist Nust.

For three hundred dollars, the cat took it home.
He called all his friends, and he bragged on the phone.

This morph made him happy, it was a great buy.
You might even say it brought tears to his eye.

And then he took pictures, and posted online,
The cat in the hat only got a hard time.

You see, what he thought was a reason to holler
Was only a normal… worth just 20 dollars.

The End.

(Written by myself, Kat, and Hurley.)

 

[paulh]

Delightful! :rofl:

 

[Serpwidgets]

SERP, I like your tri-picture pictorial. Now, the Ultra, to me, looks very much like any hypo. So, is there any way to tell if you have an Ultra other than knowing it has to be one by its parentage?

No clue. At this point you should be able to trace it back to the Ultra lines if it's actually from that line. In the future, I get the feeling it will be like asking "is this an anery or a charcoal." (Mooohahaha!)

And, in breeding an Ultra/Amel to a Butter, what are the percentages of offspring, is it 50% Utra/amel, 25% Ultra, 25% amel?

It's au X aa (on one locus) so if you do the cross,

The Ultramel parent (au) can give either the "a" allele or the "u" allele.
The Butter parent (aa) can only give the "a" allele.

The only two outcomes are "aa" and "au." (Amel and Ultramel.)

and if I use Kat's saying that it is essentially a normal het hypo het amel (both on the same allele)

This is like saying "to change the oil, put the ignition key in the lug wrench."

1- It's not a normal.

2- Alleles are different mutations of the same gene. Ultra and Amel are not "on the same allele" as everyone keeps saying, they are different alleles for the albino locus.

Anyway, an Ultramel is het at the albino locus because it has the Amel allele paired with the UltraHypo allele. That is, at the albino locus, the snake inherited the Amel allele (a) from one parent, and the Ultra (u) allele from the other parent. Since "a" is not the same as "u" this makes the snake heterozygous at the albino locus.

(This also makes it single het since it's one locus. They are not double het for ultramel as I'm sure will be said many times too, hehe.)

Also notice that since there are already two mutant alleles present at this locus, there's nowhere for the normal or wild-type (melanin-producing) allele to sit. This is why it's not a normal.

Also also notice that "aa" cannot be het for "u" because to be het it must have two different alleles at the same locus. That is, "a" is not different from "a," so calling it het is flat-out wrong. It cannot be "aau" unless it had three parents. It cannot be "aa" and "au" at the same time, unless it had four parents. And since "aa" is genetically identical to every other amel out there, it is simply an amel, nothing more.

Also also also, people are selling amels het ultra and amels possible het for ultra. I wish lots of luck to anyone who buys them thinking they're gonna add the Ultra gene to their collection.

 

[Serpwidgets]

The Cat in the Hat story: "myself" was me. That is not where Trundlefart came from. Clint started it. He made up a word that was supposed to mean nothing at all, and it stuck in a few of our heads.

It was actually that word that made me think of Dr. Suess... well, that and an old "Kids In The Hall" sketch with Dr Suess reading the story of Jesus from the bible.

IIRC that's where the word "Wimble-dee-fee!" in the poem came from.

 

[gardenmum]

Thank you Serp. And, btw, when I wrote "essentually normal het hypo het amel", I meant to write Ultrahypo, sorry 'bout that, didn't notice I left out the Ultra but meant it that way.

2- Alleles are different mutations of the same gene. Ultra and Amel are not "on the same allele" as everyone keeps saying, they are different alleles for the albino locus.

Oh, Ok, I see. This makes for better understanding.

(This also makes it single het since it's one locus. They are not double het for ultramel as I'm sure will be said many times too, hehe.)

Ahh, so it is not considered a double (Ultra & Amel) carrier but a single one due to its being on one locus? So, it is not an Ultra & Amel but a completely different bird of its own in the end. Interesting.

Anyway, an Ultramel is het at the albino locus because it has the Amel allele paired with the UltraHypo allele. That is, at the albino locus, the snake inherited the Amel allele (a) from one parent, and the Ultra (u) allele from the other parent. Since "a" is not the same as "u" this makes the snake heterozygous at the albino locus.

So, an Utramel is not homo but actually a hetero species. hmmmm....basically a "normal" (which I use loosely) affected by the fact that the "normal" gene has no place to call home since the amel & ultra(hypo) are taking up both het slots. OK.... So, if its genetic makeup comes from being het for the double alleled pair, why is it not considered a "normal" het ultramel? I know what we "see" is a different look than a normal obviously, but I am confused on how a snake has no homo but just a het.
Sorry 'bout all the questions, but I would really like to get a better grasp on what is happening here and why, to the best of everyones knowledge, that is.

Also also notice that "aa" cannot be het for "u" because to be het it must have two different alleles at the same locus. That is, "a" is not different from "a," so calling it het is flat-out wrong. It cannot be "aau" unless it had three parents. It cannot be "aa" and "au" at the same time, unless it had four parents. And since "aa" is genetically identical to every other amel out there, it is simply an amel, nothing more.

Awwww, come on. I thought if I put a Caramel male and a Lavender male in with my Amel female I could get butter lavs in the F1.....ya ruined it on me.... :roflmao: LOL...yeah, that part I get easily enough.

Also also also, people are selling amels het ultra and amels possible het for ultra. I wish lots of luck to anyone who buys them thinking they're gonna add the Ultra gene to their collection.

:eek1:

Yep, sure would hate to be the person buying a pair and expecting Ultras/ Ulra-amels out of them a couple years down the road. :eek1:

Thank you, thank you, for the info. Definitely helps me jump a big step forward in understanding, thanks a lot. Very, informative.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I know what we "see" is a different look than a normal obviously, but I am confused on how a snake has no homo but just a het.

As you know, there are two alleles at the anery locus: "E" and "e" right? And the possible pairs that can exist there are:
EE
Ee
ee

There are two homozygous pairs, one het pair. Agreed? (I assume you are familiar with what each of these cornsnakes would look like, too. )

At the Amel locus, up until recently, it was the same thing:
AA
Aa
aa

Right?

Now, add another allele to the list at the A locus, that allele being "u." The three alleles are:
Wild-type "A"
Amelanistic "a"
UltraHypo "u"

The possible pairs at that locus are now:

AA
Aa
Au
aa
uu
au

With me so far?

So, the question is, given that "het" means "different," which of the six genotypes are hets, and which of them are homos?

Also, what do each of these six genotypes look like?

And, just for fun, if you were to breed an Ultramel to each of those 6 genotypes, what kind of kids would you get from them?

 

[Serpwidgets]

Ahh, so it is not considered a double (Ultra & Amel) carrier but a single one due to its being on one locus? So, it is not an Ultra & Amel but a completely different bird of its own in the end. Interesting.

If you breed an amel to a normal, the offspring are actually het for "A" and "a." The "normal" part is obvious so it's unnecessary and left out all the time. "Het" doesn't come from the fact that it's carrying a mutant, it comes from the fact that the two alleles are a non-identical pair. Makes sense?

hmmmm....basically a "normal" (which I use loosely) affected by the fact that the "normal" gene has no place to call home since the amel & ultra(hypo) are taking up both het slots. OK.... So, if its genetic makeup comes from being het for the double alleled pair, why is it not considered a "normal" het ultramel?

The same reason an amel is not considered a normal corn homozygous for amel.

 

[gardenmum]

As you know, there are two alleles at the anery locus: "E" and "e" right? And the possible pairs that can exist there are:
EE
Ee
ee

There are two homozygous pairs, one het pair. Agreed? (I assume you are familiar with what each of these cornsnakes would look like, too. )

Yes, simple enough.

At the Amel locus, up until recently, it was the same thing:
AA
Aa
aa

Right?

Yes.

Now, add another allele to the list at the A locus, that allele being "u." The three alleles are:
Wild-type "A"
Amelanistic "a"
UltraHypo "u"

The possible pairs at that locus are now:

AA
Aa
Au
aa
uu
au

With me so far?

Yep, following no problem.

So, the question is, given that "het" means "different," which of the six genotypes are hets, and which of them are homos?

Well, that's obvious. 3/3

Also, what do each of these six genotypes look like?

No problem there. Normal, Normal het amel, Normal het ultra, Amel, Ultra, Ultra/Amel.

And, just for fun, if you were to breed an Ultramel to each of those 6 genotypes, what kind of kids would you get from them?

Now, this is where I find things interesting.

 

[gardenmum]

If you breed an amel to a normal, the offspring are actually het for "A" and "a." The "normal" part is obvious so it's unnecessary and left out all the time. "Het" doesn't come from the fact that it's carrying a mutant, it comes from the fact that the two alleles are a non-identical pair. Makes sense?

Ahh...yes, OK. That is why I have been having some problems grasping certain things. Preconceived notions that get in the way of getting a better understanding. Thank you. I always think of the Aa as homo normal het amel, but, of course, if both are hets using the word as it is intended for use, then it is just that normal is what is visable. I see where that notion was "blocking" me.

The same reason an amel is not considered a normal corn homozygous for amel.

Yep, follows in logic.
Well Serp, thanks for all your help in this. That's what happens when you come in with partial understanding and get preconcived ideas, makes it harder to move up in completely understanding the more complex steps.

Well, not saying I am anywhere near in understanding genetics like you, and am sure I'll make more mistakes in my getting a good grasp on it all, but certainly makes things a lot more understandable. Thanks.

 

[ecreipeoj]

That is not where Trundlefart came from. Clint started it. He made up a word that was supposed to mean nothing at all, and it stuck in a few of our heads.

Trundle and fart are actually real words. Trundle basically means to roll and our kids all know what fart means.

I thought a Trundle was a large Troll like creature and sometimes Trundles have accidents and what lands on the ground is similar to Rich’s “Cow Plop” Corns (Caramel Bloods) or “Trundlefart” Corns. :sidestep:

 

[paulh]

If ultra actually is an allele of amelanistic, the symbol for ultra will be changed from u to a^u. See section 3 of the <a href="http://www.informatics.jax.org/mgihome//nomen/gene.shtml">guidelines for mice genetic nomenclature.</a>

 

[mmotleys]

Man those are sure nice snakes.I sure did reproduce some real beauties.I hope everyone enjoys them and people always keep me in mind when it comes to these guys.I think the one amber motley is the nicest cornsnake i have ever seen besides some of the really pink hypo lavenders that Rich reproduces.The one snake that Mike Falcon has pictured is from me and i dont think i have ever raised one with such odd color.However it looks almost identical to one of the very first ones i reproduced but her blotches were more hypo looking orange.Please email me and let me know if anyone has an amber or amber motley compariable to that one.I would love to see any pics.

Enjoy Mike ([email protected])

 

[ecreipeoj]

I received this email from Mike Shivers referring to his review of this thread. There is a bit of information in it which I thought everybody should see for themselves. I don’t think that I will need to point out which bit of information jumped out at me. This info was shared with several people via email and it was thought best to bring it to light. This will obviously bring up many issues and opinions on this subject. The subject has been brought up in the past.

“Hey Joe,
I read some of the posts on the thread.As you can see the genetics of these snakes are really something to be explored.When Rich bred an unrelated snake to the male he got from me they still reproduced some of those really nice looking ambers(if this is what they really are).Now it answers some of my questions as to why whenever i bred him to carmels or ambers from other lines not related to mine they still reproduced these stunning snakes.I would love someone to introduce this line into the stripe gene and get some striped ambers as yellow as the motleys.When i first started into the cornsnakes i used to go to Andys alot.Maybe Andy was really the first one to reproduce carmels.He would reproduce ones he would always call chocolate corns and those really super light ghostcorns like the ones you call ice.I dont really wont to dampen anyones spirits but i do know that the whole line originated from snowcorn x greyrat.I believe they were called greysnows.I used to have pics of some snows Andy reproduced, they had that awesome yellow way more than any others i have ever seen.I do know that over the years Rich has purchased snakes from Andy and some from this line.I cannot tell you the entire background of the ultra hypos but i do know they originally came from this line.Also if you will notice the males are always the nicest ones kind of like the nicest hypo lavs are the males.Could they be related?Makes you wonder.Do you think the lavenders could have derived from this?
Mike”

 

[Rich Z]

I received this email from Mike Shivers referring to his review of this thread. There is a bit of information in it which I thought everybody should see for themselves. I don’t think that I will need to point out which bit of information jumped out at me. This info was shared with several people via email and it was thought best to bring it to light. This will obviously bring up many issues and opinions on this subject. The subject has been brought up in the past.

“Hey Joe,
I read some of the posts on the thread.As you can see the genetics of these snakes are really something to be explored.When Rich bred an unrelated snake to the male he got from me they still reproduced some of those really nice looking ambers(if this is what they really are).Now it answers some of my questions as to why whenever i bred him to carmels or ambers from other lines not related to mine they still reproduced these stunning snakes.I would love someone to introduce this line into the stripe gene and get some striped ambers as yellow as the motleys.When i first started into the cornsnakes i used to go to Andys alot.Maybe Andy was really the first one to reproduce carmels.He would reproduce ones he would always call chocolate corns and those really super light ghostcorns like the ones you call ice.I dont really wont to dampen anyones spirits but i do know that the whole line originated from snowcorn x greyrat.I believe they were called greysnows.I used to have pics of some snows Andy reproduced, they had that awesome yellow way more than any others i have ever seen.I do know that over the years Rich has purchased snakes from Andy and some from this line.I cannot tell you the entire background of the ultra hypos but i do know they originally came from this line.Also if you will notice the males are always the nicest ones kind of like the nicest hypo lavs are the males.Could they be related?Makes you wonder.Do you think the lavenders could have derived from this?
Mike”

Hmm, interesting.....

The only way that animals Andy Barr is (was?) working with could be the same Caramel line that I am, is if he released related stock carrying this gene near the Cape Coral, Florida area (near Ft. Meyers), and that mom and pop pet shop where I bought the original female this line came from, was one of those animals.

As for the animals I purchased from Andy Barr, yes, at one of the earlier Tampa shows, I did purchase a group of babies from Andy that he had displayed on his table. At the time I grilled him about he ancestry, and the ones I was interested in (which he called "Frosteds") he swore were pure corns. Others on his table he indicated were from a gray rat x corn snake project. I bought a couple pairs of Snow Frosted and Anerythristic Frosteds from him at that time. Unfortunately, these snakes had a hidden gift that I discovered when I got home, and for the next few weeks sprinkled down the floor in the quarantine room liberally with Sevin dust to kill keep the mites from spreading while I treated the newly acquired animals. In a phone conversation about other things around the same time, I talked to Steve Osborne about treating mites, since it had been a long time since I had had to deal with them. He gave me the name of a spray treatment that he said was excellent for that use. So I bought some, and gave the deli cups those animals were in, a dosage. Unfortunately, I turned this chore over to a guy working for me at the time, and forgot to warn him to air the deli cups out sufficiently before putting those animals back into them. Subsequently, most of them died from the fumes, and only a few survived.

Now after a couple of years of raising up the survivors, I became more and more convinced that they really were not pure corns. I don't believe I ever did breed them, and once I came to this conviction I wanted nothing more then to just get rid of them. Don Soderberg offered to take them, so I made him a really good deal on the entire group, and off they went. End of that story.

Now, my original Ultra Hypos came solely from Mike Falcon, who I grilled extensively about their background. He never waivered in his story and said they were pure corns that came from an unusual wild caught animal. In all the years I have worked with them, I have never had a reason to doubt his word. And to this day, I would not be able to point to even a shred of evidence that would contradict Mike Falcon's story.

In a like situation, I bought that big male GoldDust corn from Mike Shiver as well as hatchlings of a GoldDust Motley male, GoldDust male, and a Caramel Female het for the GoldDust Motley. They were purchased at one of the Tampa shows a couple of years ago, and the big GoldDust male I got at the Tampa show in the fall of 2003, I think. Again, I specifically asked Mike Shiver about the origination of these animals and in all instances he insisted that they were pure corns.

So what is this "whole line" that Mike is referring to in his email? Is he referring to the line he was calling Amber Motleys, which I am now referring to as GoldDusts? Is he referring to the Ultra Hypo line which he, along with Mike Falcon and Andy Barr were working with and sold as "pure" corns?

It appears that all of the things I have been told cannot all be true in light of this admission by Mike Shiver. The question is, what exactly IS the truth?

 

[ecreipeoj]

It appears that all of the things I have been told cannot all be true in light of this admission by Mike Shiver. The question is, what exactly IS the truth?

Another question is how many times has this same situation occurred but has gone undiscovered? How many times has animals such as these been sold as Space Garbage and then become a breeder in someone’s collection or it shows up in a pet shop? Is the lack of knowledge that a line may have non-pure corns in its background; enough to say our corns are pure? Are we kidding ourselves?

A few hours ago, Ultra Caramels were pure and now? If this information did not surface, they would be pure tomorrow. Are they any less beautiful? Will they be considered along the lines of Creamcicles now? How many offspring are out there from the Ultra Caramel line? I have an Ultramel het Lavender and many other people have offspring with similar lineage. What do you think of my Ultramel het Lavender now?