Ultra Mystery...

[mike panic]

After reviewing some emails from Mike Shiver, I am INCORRECT IN SAYING THAT THE ABOVE FEMALE IS FROM THE SAME CLUTCH AS RICHES GOLD DUST. Here is the email after I got back after I sent mike a photo of these two snakes. They are clutchmates. The male that Rich has is the FATHER of these two from what I can tell from Mikes email.

From: ANGELA SHIVER
To: Mike Panic
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS


That female was from the same clutch as the carmel het for amber you just got back.I bred my amber male that Rich has now to one of the carmel females that ken got.That year only 1 amber came out and the rest were carmels.The next year there were 3-4 ambers.I am not sure why the ratio was that way.She is the carmel female with the small square blotches,very aggressive feeder.She was not related to the amber line that I had but when bred to that male the babies still seem to come out very nice.The offspring from that female are much larger than that off the original ultra line.

Mike

 

[ecreipeoj]

Mike,
It seems pretty obvious which adults are Goldust. They are very yellow, similar to a Butter, but without pink eyes.

A hatchling Goldusts has been posted by Rich Z on page 1 of this thread. At least he thinks it is a Goldust, and so do I. It is very similar to a Butter hatchling, but does not have pink eyes. They look blue to me, with a ruby iris. It seems as if the Goldust and Ultramels eyes appear to be near normal colored as adults or perhaps the color of their background color.

I have not seen a lot of Caramel or Amber hatchlings, but. I think if any of the hatchlings from this line are born any shade of brown or yellow/brown, they may not be Goldust and may be one of the other possible phenotypes from this line.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Shivers "That female was from the same clutch as the carmel het for amber you just got back.I bred my amber male that Rich has now to one of the carmel females that ken got.That year only 1 amber came out and the rest were carmels.The next year there were 3-4 ambers.I am not sure why the ratio was that way.She is the carmel female with the small square blotches,very aggressive feeder.She was not related to the amber line that I had but when bred to that male the babies still seem to come out very nice.The offspring from that female are much larger than that off the original ultra line."Mike

I believe that Shivers said that the female Caramel was not from his line, but still produced Goldusts.

This is one of the things that confused Shivers even more than he was already about the way the Ultra gene was acting. He still thought that it was just a shinny penny and caused the regular Amber to be brighter.

The Caramel that he bred to his Goldust was simply het for amel. When we come to this understanding, you can breed the Goldust to any amel or het amel that you can find and you will produce more Ultramels or Goldust if they are also homo Caramel or het for Caramel.

In this case, Shivers bred a Goldust from his line to a Caramel het amel from another line and presto, more Goldust.

 

[mike panic]

I believe that Shivers said that the female Caramel was not from his line, but still produced Goldusts.

He did indeed. He was not referring to the caramel in the water dish though. I believe he was referring to an unrelated female caramel Ken S. had but has since sold. I'm pretty sure he bred these two males to that female as well but didnt get any amels. How is that possible?

 

[mike panic]

original photos of this small 3 egg clutch

here are the original photos of the three egg double clutch. I sold these as butters from the ultra line? Are they butters or did I screw up and sell Gold dusts? they look like definate amels to me but all of a sudden I have a doubt or two. Thanks

 

[mike panic]

two more photos of them

I had to crop them a bit. Are they butters?

 

[ecreipeoj]

I believe that Shivers said that the female Caramel was not from his line, but still produced Goldusts.

He did indeed. He was not referring to the caramel in the water dish though. I believe he was referring to an unrelated female caramel Ken S. had but has since sold. I'm pretty sure he bred these two males to that female as well but didnt get any amels. How is that possible?

When we look at the possible outcome from a breeding, we are looking at statistical odds. The more hatchling from a pair that are produced the closer you will normally come to the odds. Since both parents are only het for Amel, there is only a 1 in 4 chance that an Homo amel will be produced in the clutch. An Amel or Butter would be included in those odds.

As Rich and others can attest to, myself included, we do not always get what we should or expect in a clutch. We can also get much more. I have produce 10 amels out 11 eggs from het to het breeding before. I have also only got one out of 12, and zero is certainly a possibility as well. The only other possibility for the lack of amels is if the Goldusts in this clutch were miss-identified, and/or one of the parents was miss-identified and the genes were not there.

 

[Rich Z]

Heck, in a breeding I did with one of my Ultra Hypos (which I can't remember which one) to a regular Hypomelanistic, I got ALL hypos, so I just naturally assumed that the Ultra Hypo was just a slightly visually different Hypomelanistic. So I never really did much with them, and actually had them all on surplus at one time or another, planning to just move them out for more interesting things to work with. Murphy's Law at it again.

It wasn't until I bred an Ultra Hypo with an Amber and got all normals that things were getting to the head scratching stage. And further, since I never really breed Hypo to Amelanism for any reason, the chances of my figuring out what the heck the Ultra really is, was highly unlikely to ever dawn on me.

Matter of fact, I kept a few regular hypomelanistics around simply because whenever I bred them with an Ultra Hypo, I was getting two distinct varieties of Hypo out of them. Since that Hypo line had NO ancestry with the Ultra Hypo, I couldn't figure out why I was getting what looked like possibly double homozygous hypos out of those clutches. Now it is apparent that those Hypos were het for Amelanism, but at the time, this was just another puzzler.

And as Joe has pointed out, luck and Murphy's Law go hand in hand. You need to produce a large sampling of data before you start jumping to conclusions. Basing a hypothesis on a single clutch will most likely prove to confuse you rather than enlighten you.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I reviewed much of this thread yesterday. Talk about feeling like I was walking up hill backwards with my landline connection. It is amazing how far this thread has taken us and how much my perspective about the Ultra Mystery has evolved. I noticed things yesterday that I did not pick up on at the time the posts were made.

Since I was involved and still am, in the Hypo Test Breeding Project, I have seen a lot of information presented in other Threads, in emails and in phone conversations. Some of that information can be connected and some cannot in one way or another. What information have we discovered is FACTS and which is not? Each little bit of information that we discover, has to be weighted by each of us, to determine if it is FACT or not enough to be considered in that category. Most of the information that we have discovered about Hypos in general comes in statements. Statements have to be weighted before we can put them in the FACTS category, but the things like breeding results in a clutch can easily be put into that category. We still get these breeding results in the form of statements. The photos of clutches are a slam-dunk into the FACTS category. Shivers breeding results in Hurley’s Chart is a good example of FACTS from Shivers that were statements.

I still cannot believe that there are some people that have not come to the conclusion that the Ultra Hypo gene is located at the Amel locus. The information that we have FACTS about makes me 99% sure this is true, just like Serp (Chuck) has said many times. There are very few things that we can be 100% sure of, except that I know that most opinions and the position that people will take on the FACTS in the Ultra Mystery Thread, will be split near 50%.

Since the Ultra Hypo gene is located at the Amel locus and this is rare and has never happened in Corn Snake genetics except for possibly the Striped and Motley genes, any Common Named Hypo that is from an unknown lineage that produces Ultramels when bred to an Amel, IS Ultra Hypo, unless there is more hypos located at the Amel locus. There is the 1% again.

The Hypo Test Breeding Project was started to try to find and classify as many Hypos floating around in the Corn Snake POOL as we could find. Test breedings of two Hypos that result in Normals make the two hypos incompatible. If we breed two hypos together and they produce hypos, then we know at least there are some compatible genes in both parents. Since we know that Ultra Hypo is located at the Amel locus, it makes since to me that any and all Hypos that are also located at the Amel locus are a match with Ultra and we have found some of the Hypos that we were searching for in the POOL. I do not think many people realize how enormous this POOL is. The Ultra Hypo has spread coast to coast as an unknown in about 10 years, before the Ultra Mystery Thread.

Two breeders at the Anaheim Show in LA this year had Ultramels on their table and one called them T+ and the other did not know what they were. The breeder that did not know what they were likes to mix everything up in his Corns to see what he can find and create. These just popped up in his collection and he has bred them into many of his corns. He goes to show after show and has spread this gene around quite a bit himself. From a wild caught snake in FL to a snake show in CA as an unknown in 10 + or - years. The POOL is BIG.

I came across Sean Bradley’s post #175 about his T+ Albinos yesterday. When I first read his post, his breeding results sure seemed to be consistent with our Ultra Mystery. When I read it today and look at the photos, I see Ultras, Amels and Ultramels and a match to Ultra Hypo. Do you know how many times I have heard of hypos that are described in a way that leads me to believe now that they were Ultramels? Insane Hypo, Super Hypo, Ruby eye Amel, Ruby Eyed Hypo, Ruby Eyed Ghost, Ultra Ghost, Tequila Sunrise, Strawberry Hypo and on and on and Amel is always near by. These leads are coming in from everywhere.

I personally think at this time that Strawberry Hypos are Ultras. They even look like Ultramels to me now. I have talked to Jim at SWR on the phone about the Strawberry hypos and his “Coral” Snows from that line. I had called him in connection with the Hypo Test Breeding Project, but I also wanted some of them as well. I don’t know if you guys have noticed it, but Falcon can remember some details very clearly, and in other areas “It was a long time ago”. There are only two real possibilities. Falcon cannot remember some of the answers to some of my questions or what he did not want me to know, “was a long time ago”.

My conversation with Jim was very friendly when we were talking about the cool Strawberrys and Coral Snows and he described them in great detail, but when I directed my questions at test breedings or the make up of the clutches these came from I did not get any answers to my questions. I do know that the Coral Snows that he has are from his Strawberry Hypos and Snows have Amel in them and Anery A. There is the Amel gene near by again. He also has produced “Ultra” Ghost from this line, but has changed the name to “Blue eyed” Ghost. Jim was very reluctant to make the connection between the Strawberrys and Coral Snows and would not even talk about Amels being in the clutches of Strawberrys or Coral Snows, but they had to be. I did not know why my question of the make up of the clutches was left a mystery to me, because I knew that he had to know, but I think I know now. He either new Amel was in the mix and partially responsible for the Strawberrys and Coral Snows or he did not understand how he was really getting the Strawberrys and or both. There have been a lot of people hatch out Ultramels and none of them knew what was going on, so Jim was probably in the same boat.

Good grief this is getting long again! Don S post # 163 and 164, Ultras all the way. Hey, Chuck there is another case of the Anery gene being in the Ultras in addition to the Ultra Ghost of Jims. I am sure the Anery A gene could get in the mix in many ways other than Ultra X Graysnows, but it is not a complete PILE.

I have got to end this, but how did the Standard Hypo get into Rich Z’s Ultras that he got from Falcon? When I was doing my Hypo Test Breeding thing with Falcon, he said that he never bred them to Hypo or a double homo hypo like a Ghost. It wasn’t “a long time ago” on those details, but he did get his hands on Ultras that were carrying the Standard Hypo gene somehow. Either the wild caught female had both the Ultra and Standard Hypo gene in them or Falcon got Ultras back from Barr and/or Shivers that did. I do not get the impression that Falcon did much with the Ultras, but Barr sure seems to have and Falcon and Shivers got some. They had to because they both had “Ultra Ambers” and Falcon has some now. We need to talk to Barr to clear up some loose ends and put some more statements into the FACTS category unless we just want to leave some things in the mystery category.

Falcon has not helped much in discovering the History of the Ultra Hypo, except he establishes it from a wild caught snake. Falcon seems to purposely been vague now. Barr was friends with Falcon at that time and got some Ultras and is a HUGH missing link. EVERYTHING else that we know about the Ultras is in one way or another linked or came from Shivers. There is an enormous amount of facts and 99% conclusions that come from Shivers statements, but now some think he is not CREDIBLE? Most of his statements have to be credible or we have nothing. The Ultramel of Kat’s that started this thread came from Shivers, to every “Ultra Amber” or Ultra that the test breedings have came from. Shivers and Barr bred quite a few snakes and we only know of a hand full of their ware-a-bouts. We are just beginning to find a few that went into the Pool.

 

[ecreipeoj]

here are the original photos of the three egg double clutch. I sold these as butters from the ultra line? Are they butters or did I screw up and sell Gold dusts? they look like definate amels to me but all of a sudden I have a doubt or two. Thanks

Hi Mike,
I am not sure how anybody could really tell at this time because nobody really has any experience with Goldust Motley hatchlings except for Shivers. I do not think that we will be hearing from him again, which I think is very unfortunate.

I do not think that we will be hearing again from Falcon either, because I changed my tactics with him after the last email that I posted to an aggressive one, and got the response that I expected. It was no worse than the previous response of nothing, but I know he is not happy with me. Shivers is not happy with a lot of people now. It is unfortunate that their involvement in this line as ended in that way. Shivers could answer your question.

The photos of the “Butter” Motleys that you have posted look different in some way than Butter Motleys that I produce but it is hard to describe. The clear white areas on your “Butter” Motleys is much more distinct than my Butter Motleys which have practically none of that clear milky white around the blotches that yours do from this line. They also appear to have a “ruby” cast to them. You also told me on the phone that they are more orangish or deeper in color or something that you couldn’t quite explain either.

My first thought, as yours probably was at the time, was that they were amels because of the pink eyes. Also, you thought the other hatchlings coming from this line that may or may not be Goldust were Shivers‘, “Ultra Ambers”. Shivers told me and I relayed the message to you, that the photos that he was seeing posted of the “Ultra Ambers” did not look like his “Ultra Ambers” that he hatched out as hatchlings. He said, that they were not yellow enough and he said that the photos of the snakes that he was seeing would never turn out like the “Ultra Ambers”. I think based upon the photo that Rich Z posted of the Goldust Corn on page one, the Goldust Motleys are going to be very yellow like a Butter Motley and not any shade of brown.

When we add the Motley gene into the Goldust mix, will their eyes be pink or ruby colored as hatchlings? An Ultramels eyes are ruby colored as a hatchling. Many of the multiple homo morphs that included Lavenders, Ghost and the like can have ruby eyes. The Lava Lavenders (Ice Lavenders) that I hatched out this year have pink or light ruby eyes. They are not amel and none of their parents or ancestors that I have, have ruby eyes.

It seems very possible to me, that who ever bought the “Butters” Motleys from that clutch may have got a great deal, and some of the people that have “Ultra Ambers” may not have what they think they have. Any and all offspring from the Goldust line that carry the Ultra gene and Caramel gene can produce Goldust when bred to Amel, but if they are the 50% that get the amel gene passed into them from the Goldust, they CANNOT produce Goldust. The key ingredient is not there. The Ultra Hypo gene is the key to reproduction of this morph and it has to be approached in a very different way than we have had to do in the past.

Although Shivers changed his story about many things, I think that he was actually confused and did not want anybody to know it. He did not know what he really had any more than the people who have these now did a few days ago. I would never suggest that anybody who have these now, misrepresented them in any way, and perhaps Shivers was in the same exact boat. He/We just did not know exactly what they were or how they reproduced. Shivers did have one advantage over the people who have the line now. He knew what a hatchling Goldust looked like.

I think that the next breeding season of the Goldust line, will be extremely interesting to say the least. The Standard Hypo gene in the mix is really going to make things difficult, but a pairing with amel, will not be affected if the hypo gene is present as long as the Amel does on carry the Hypo gene. All pairings with a Goldust, other than a Goldust from this line, will give unpredictable results.

Many of the “Ambers” from Shivers line are just plane Ambers. This is why we need to get completely away from Shivers name of “Ultra Amber” and use Goldust. If you breed a Goldust (uacc) to an Amber (hhcc) you will get Caramels het for Amel/hypo OR Ultra/hypo. (OR, OR a big fat OR) One will be a Caramel het for Goldust, and the other will be a Caramel het for Butter. The same exact thing would apply to a Goldust (uacc) X Caramel (cc) breeding. You would get all Caramels, but half would be het for Ultra and the other half will be het for Amel. We have never had this type of situation before, so what Shivers thought the offspring should be het for that he sold, based upon old genetic thinking, may not be het for Ultra (Shivers‘ “Ultra Amber“). Some of the Ambers and Caramels from this line certainly are not and can not produce Goldust without the Ultra gene.

I can see a problem in my way of thinking because these Caramels and Ambers that are het for Amel can produce Goldust if they are bred to a Goldust or Ultra Caramel because the Goldust/Ultra Caramel will bring the Ultra gene back into the equation. If you are not using a Goldust or known Caramel het Ultra however, and breed a Shivers’ Caramel or Amber that he thought should be het for Ultra, but is one of the 50% het for amel, you will never be able to produce Goldust from that particular pairing. Caramel het Amel (ccAa) X Caramel het Amel (ccAa) or X Amber het Amel (hhccAa) can not produce Goldust. The Ultra gene is not there.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I had to crop them a bit. Are they butters?

Mike, I have re-established a dialogue with Shivers. I sent the photos that you posted above that we questioned being Butter Motleys or Goldust Motleys to Shivers. He said that those snakes are amels. I also sent him a photo of Rich Z’s Goldust on page one of this thread. He said that is an “Ultra Amber” (Goldust) and the Goldust Motleys look exactly like that when they are born, except they have the Motley pattern.

 

[Rich Z]

Yeah, Mike Shiver is right. I am growing up a GoldDust and GoldDust Motley I got from him and the coloration is the same in both of them. Only difference is the Motley pattern.

 

[mike panic]

Mike, I have re-established a dialogue with Shivers. I sent the photos that you posted above that we questioned being Butter Motleys or Goldust Motleys to Shivers. He said that those snakes are amels. I also sent him a photo of Rich Z’s Goldust on page one of this thread. He said that is an “Ultra Amber” (Goldust) and the Goldust Motleys look exactly like that when they are born, except they have the Motley pattern.

They are butters not amels. I have no idea anymore what to tell you guys.

Lets ask him some questions then. What does he say these babies are? They are not merely caramel motleys. Is he also still saying that the motley males are amber motleys? Thats what he said in the email he sent you. Is he still sticking to that or are they something else this week? please ask him to id each snake for me. Ask him what he now feels the snakes I have been calling the ultra caramel motley males are, what is the female that I have been calling the ultra caramel motley, and what is the female that I have been calling the ultra caramel. Also ask him if this will be the last account of what they are so I know what to responsibly call them. All kidding aside Joe, can you forward each of these photos and ask him what he thinks each one is. I have had this conversation with him already but lets ask him again. Please put the responses in this forum.

 

[mike panic]

Yeah, Mike Shiver is right. I am growing up a GoldDust and GoldDust Motley I got from him and the coloration is the same in both of them. Only difference is the Motley pattern.

Rich do you have an opinion on what I should be calling any or all of these snakes? Especially the babies? I am trying to be responsible in naming these things in the correct manner. Thanks

 

[Rich Z]

Rich do you have an opinion on what I should be calling any or all of these snakes? Especially the babies? I am trying to be responsible in naming these things in the correct manner. Thanks

Mike, I am having trouble enough with accurate labels on my own animals, even with breeding history and lineage known to me. No way I am going to go out on a limb and label other people's animals.

Bear in mind that Caramel Motleys all by themselves can get extremely light colored. Certainly many people would mistake some adults I have for Amber Motleys. I am growing up some true Amber Motleys now, so maybe I'll have something to compare to when they reach adulthood. Of course, this year the Amber Motleys seemed brighter as babies then the ones I got last year, so no idea what the heck that means.

I will be offering a special sale on premade ID labels later on in the year that consist of nothing more then question marks with male and female symbols.

 

[ecreipeoj]

They are butters not amels. I have no idea anymore what to tell you guys.Please put the responses in this forum.

Mike, they are amels and they are Butters, I think they are actually Butter Motleys, but the point was they are amels and not “Ultra Ambers”. You are really getting up tight about this. There will be no answers to your other questions at this time. It is not Shivers fault, it is not your fault, the mystery continues. Answers will come in time and the mystery will be solved.

Mike Shivers can no more identify the snakes that you own or the hatchling that you are producing genetically than the man in the moon or Mickey Mouse. I do think that he knows what a hatching and adult Goldust, Goldust Motleys and Butter Motleys look like, so he can say yes that looks like a Goldust and not a Butter or no that is a Ultra Caramel or Amber het Ultra which could be 4 or 5 different things genetically at this point in time.

Mike Shivers understanding of what the “Ultra Ambers” were and how they pasted on their genes into their offspring is a language all in itself. It seems perfectly clear to him, but I have to translate it into “Ultra Theory English” when I get it, and some of it is NOT TRANSLATABLE. When Shivers bred an “Ultra Amber” X Amber het Amel, the offspring that where not “Ultra Ambers” were not Ambers het “Ultra Amber“. That does not compute, but it computes to him and some people are still trying to speak the Shivers “Ultra Amber Theory” genetics language and I am afraid that it does not apply to these Corns.

We all know what Rich’s “Pandora’s Box of Hypos” is right? Well, we have a DOZY here! We have two hypos in the mix, Ultra and Hypo and we have a completely new morph I am going to call Ultramel, for the time being. If Christmas hypos happen to be located at the amel locus, we can call them Chrismels. LOL

So Mike, basically we have Rich’s Pandora’s Box with three hypo type mutant genes in the mix and Shivers did not know any of this. This means that every breeder that you have and everybody else has unknown genes in their make up even your Goldust Motleys. They can be Hypo Goldust Motleys or Goldust Motleys het hypo. If you breed a Hypo Goldust Motley (hhauccmm) X Amber het amel Motley (hhccAaMm) you will produce Goldust Motleys alright, but you will or can produce Plain Jane Ambers in the clutch that are not het for Goldust in anyway shape or form and can not produce a Goldust of any kind no matter what you breed them to.

Try understanding that one, let alone trying to explain it to someone. Shivers thought they were obviously het for “Ultra” or “Ultra Amber” and why shouldn‘t he have? I can tell you this right now, nobody on this planet can identify your adult snakes or their offspring genetically by the way they LOOK. The only possible way to figure that out is through breeding trials.

Have Ken and/or yourself give us the Adult pairings that were used and the ENTIRE make up of the clutches and we can make some educated guesses and that is it. If your luck is incredible you can figure out the genetic make up of the adults with one breeding, but it will most likely take several. You just do not get all possibilities in a clutch when five genes are in the mix. I do not think that you can look at an Ultra Caramel, Hypo Ultra Caramel or Amber and tell them apart just by looking at them. We might be able to brown bag test them eventually, but we only know what a Amber looks like now and they vary a lot all by themselves. They can also be het for Ultra, Hypo or Amel as well.

Since Ken used two males of unknown genetic make up on at least one female that I know of, all we can do is make an educated guess about all of the genes contained in both males. We can assume they are Goldust (uacc) but they can be Hypo Goldust or Goldust het Hypo. This Amber connection to the Goldust has to be tossed out the window of a jet at 30,000 feet. The only gene in Ambers that can help to make Goldust is the Caramel gene. Sure some of Shivers Ambers are het for Ultra or Amel and you can get a completely unrelated Ambers het Amel and you will produce Goldust from them, but it is because of Ultramels not Ambers.

These snakes are cool, awesome, “Sick”, extraordinary or what ever your generation of expression is and the genetics they are carrying are extremely interesting and have some incredible potential. I think that Rich’s offer to give you some pre-labeled stickers for your lids that have ?????? M or F is funnier than hell! It is only funny because it is true.

The only way to figure the genetics of your snakes out is through test breedings, just like we are doing with the Hypo Test Breeding Project. If you breed any and all of these snakes to AMELS, Butters, or Butter Motleys it will reveal a great deal about the genetic make up of the adults. I think that Butter Motleys would be the best because they have the Caramel, Motley and Amel gene in the mix and CAN match up with the genes in the other parent snake to begin to separate out the Ultra gene, which is the KEY. Unfortunately, the hypo gene will still be floating around in Pandora’s Box, which could only be separated out with test breedings to Corns that only contain the Hypo gene and definitely not the Amel gene.

I can post emails from Shivers to me. I am very glad that he is talking to me again. Why, because I sent him an email and said PLEASE! I have nothing to hide what so ever, but they are in a different language and will only fuel the fire of the people who wish to discredit him on some issues they don’t like. We all like some of the thing he says, but some want to ignore others. I think he is creditable, he just didn’t have the genetics of these Corns figured out and it looks like he is trying to scam people when he was not. Some people need to live in a bubble about some issues, but I do not. I accept the Ultra Hypo for what it is. It is a new genetic Mutant gene that we are going to make more Mutant Morphs of Corns out of that we have never seen before and they will be “Pure“ Corns.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Here they are for the record as they were sent to me. I am risking losing my dialog with him however. He is still receiving emails when people post here just like everybody else. I think anybody else in his situation would have told all of you/me to go to you know where a long time ago. I give him credit for not doing that and for hanging in there. I think he is credible and he is doing the best that he can with what he knows. You can try to twist what he says to suit your purpose, but he did not and is not trying to scam anybody. Since he is out of snakes, I have no clue why he is talking to any of us, since we are judging him.

The problem with these responses, since he deleted my questions, they make more since to me than they will here. I sent him photographs and ask him to identify them. I wanted to find out what the phenotype of Goldust and Goldust Motley looked like for Mike P and the rest of us. Make what ever you want out of them. I can forward them to you and the topic, subject and the path will be preserved but that really doesn’t mean anything. We all know that you can alter an email when it is forwarded. I have no reason to do that. I want to know the history of the Ultra Hypo and try to figure out the genetics involved.

I would also like to say that some of us have a lot of experience communication in writing and some of us can type well and some of us do not have that experience. I can not spell at all and if it wasn’t for spell check I would be doomed and sometimes it corrects words into something that makes no since at all. I find those corrections sometimes when I read my post later and correct them or sometimes leave them Nobody is perfect. We see that all the time here on this forum. I can type faster than I can talk and some people peck with two fingers, so what?


Joe,
The one in the last picture labeled Kenhatch is going to be the best one.The pics of the first 2 are from the one female that isnt full ultra.The ones with the darker blotches turn out a little different.Like i said before the males were the only ones that hatched out really light.Just as in the ultras the males were always the best.That gene seemed to carry right over to those snakes as well.I think you will reproduce much lighter ones if you get away from that one particular line that i bred those into.I bred the original amber male to a carmel female i had bought from someone. She reproduced nice hardy babies but they seemed to be much darker that the original line.I also bred him to another female carmel that i got from someone but she was much lighter in color than the other one.Some of the ones that came from this female were really outstanding.I was very suprised because she was totally unrelated to this line.The 2 motley males(ambers) the one motley female and the butter motley female are all related and come from my orginal ultra line.I probably shouldnt have bred them with others.In the beginning i never bred them to any other snakes only to each other.Then once some the offspring grewup they were put into the mix.I know he bred the 2 males to the one female motley.Did he get any really light ones from that breeding?The ones that are super light in color and have the areas around the blotches stripped away,will turn out super yellow with hardly any brown on them at all.Let em know if you have any other pics and i can tell you who they came from and which ones will be the best.
Mike

Yeah thats a nice one,but i have seen them even lighter.He must have used my adult male i traded him.
Mike

I see 2 butters and one carmel in that pic.The darker butter looks like a motley.They would look just like the one in Richs pic but motley.

Yeah that one looks like the butter motley female that i sold him.Those are definate amels.
Mike

HOW DID YOU DO WITH YOUR TRANSLATION FROM HIS LANGUAGE TO OURS NOW? I AM GETTING THE HANG OF IT. I DO SEE THAT HE GOT SURPRISES AND HE DID NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHY HE GOT WHAT HE GOT, BUT I KNOW NOW, DO YOU?

 

[Rich Z]

I had to crop them a bit. Are they butters?

Mike, look at this photo:

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There is a Butter (the one with pink eyes), GoldDust, and a Caramel pictured in it. That will help to give you some guidance.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Here is a little help in translating Shivers statements about the “Ultra Ambers” into what we have learned in this thread. I have tried to explain what we have learned about the Ultra gene to Shivers and it gets ignored. He has no reason to try to learn a new language at this time, but we do. These are some of the things that I feel can be translated and I am sure there are more. His use of Amber is the main wrench in our understanding of what he was thinking and trying to say. He also called Ultramels (Ultra Hypos), which is very understandable, since we have been doing that for quite awhile until recently.

Shivers Theory = Ultra Mystery Theory
Ultra = Ultramel
Hypo = Hypo and/or Ultra
Ultra Amber or Amber = Goldust
Caramel = Caramel het amel or Amber het amel
Het Amber or Het Ultra Amber = Het Ultra Caramel, Het Amber, or Het Butter
Butter from this line = Butter het Ultra, which is not possible
Surprise/Did not expect = Ultra located at Amel locus.
Brighter = May mean Homo Hypo or Homo Ultra and Hypo.

It will be interesting to see what he identifies some of the offspring from this years hatch that look like Ambers, Ultra Caramels or Hypo Ultra Caramels to me. If he bred Corns with similar phenotypes he may have an idea of what they are, but he will not know why. Maybe, we will be able to translate.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Mike, look at this photo:There is a Butter (the one with pink eyes), GoldDust, and a Caramel pictured in it. That will help to give you some guidance.

Is there an Amber in the photo? The comparison photo of a Goldust and Amber on page one seemed clear.