mike panic
Member
thanks alot rich for posting those.
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Ultra Mystery...
- Thread starter Kat
- Start date
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Mike Shivers DEFENSE
How would you like to have that job? I told Shivers that I would try to head off any negative comments about him and I haven’t done a very good job. I have actually joined the mob squad in his lynching. Since I told him that I would defend him when I could, here it goes. As far as Falcon is concerned, if he can’t remember that 1 + 1 = Corn and 1 + 2 = Hybrid, then I don’t want that job.
“Shivers misrepresented the Ultra Ambers Motleys that he sold!” “Shivers has changed his story about the Ultra line many times.” Does everybody agree with those statements? We can include the Ultra Caramels het Motley and every other snake that he sold from the Ultra line. How can somebody misrepresent something if they do not know what it is in the first place?
Do each and every one of you completely understand the Ultra and Amel allele theory and all of the possibly combinations that may result from a breeding with the two genes involved? How many people understand that an Ultramel is only het for Amel and Ultra and not Homo like an Amel is? What language are we speaking? We have been in school studying this topic for a very long time and it is still very confusing.
The Ultra “Ambers” that Rich Z, and Mike P and other have were produced at least two years ago. The parents of those Ultra “Ambers” were produce at least 4 years ago. What did you know about Corn Snake genetics then? Can we say recessive and simple? Did you know that the Ultra Hypo was a new and distinctive genetic hypo? Did you know that the Ultra Hypo was an allele with Amel? Did you even know what that means?
Shivers knew that the Ultra was a hypo, but he thought it was a shiny penny. A Standard Hypo that was brighter for no apparent reason. It was an Ultra Hypo! A Super Duper Hypo! He got his Ultra from Andy Barr. Yes, he did! The Ultra that Shiver obtained from Barr had the Motley and Hypo genes in them either as homo or het. Yes, it did! Shivers bred them to an Amel Het Caramel and produced Morphs that nobody had ever seen before, but he thought they were a shinny penny hypo morph. He did not conceive the “Ultra Mystery Theory“.
He saved F-1’s from that first breeding and produced what? Come on, you have been reading this thread. What would he get, from an Ultra het Amber Motley X Hypo het Butter Motley? Quick what would he get? What would they look like? How would you re-produce the very yellow looking Corns in the clutch? What would you call them? What would you call a Shinny Penny Hypo Caramel? Lets see a Hypo Caramel is called an Amber, so shinny penny hypo versions would be an Ultra “Amber”. That sounds right and the Motley version Ultra “Amber” Motley.
Shivers thought he had Ultra Motleys, Ultra Caramels, Ultra Ambers, Ultra Amber Motleys and on and on. New shinny penny versions of the Standard hypo morphs. He saved the Ultra Amber Motleys and bred them to the Caramel het Motley and amel and to Ambers het amel and got more Ultra Amber Motleys and Ultra Ambers. Of course he would, based upon what you know right! Wait a minute are you sure? What would all of the offspring be carrying as het? Come on this should be easy; you have been reading this thread!
Shiver’s could not have possible known what he had or what combinations would result in what morph or what they would be het for no more than you do right now at this very instant. Nobody new that these genes existed and how they would combine when they were bred together. Shivers did not know as well and could not have possibly known.
Shiver’s decides to get out of snakes, which he did and started selling the snakes from this line. What is an Ultra Amber? What is an Ultra Caramel? What will I get if I breed the Ultra Amber with an Ultra Carmel het Amber? Shivers tried to answer all of the questions about a new and previously unknown gene, which is an allele with amel, but he did not know that, by using the genetics known at that time. The rules at that time simply did not apply to these snakes, so how could he have misrepresented them under those conditions?
The people who bred these snakes this year did not know what they were looking at when the clutches hatched. What? Am I sure I used that male? Perhaps it is sperm retention? Maybe they are het or homo for multiple Hypo genes or……..! Many of the breeders who had these Ultra “Ambers” and “Ultra” Motleys are the biggest breeders in the country and the clutches they got from them did not make any since at all, based upon the corn snake genetics known at the time.
Kat hatched some out and for some reason a light came on in her head and she said something like, “Hey I have an odd looking amel here. It is darker and has ruby eyes.“ Don S said, hey so do I, and Rich said, me too and many others said hey me too. The Ultra Hypo Mystery thread begins and today it makes perfect since to all of us doesn’t it?
Shivers tried to explain what an Ultramel was and what you would get when you bred it to an Ultra or Amel with the genetics of the time and it was simply impossible to do. He thought that the Butters he produced were het for Ultra and the Ultras were het for amel, which is impossible, right! are you sure? Under the old rules, that was the only explanation anybody would come up with, but he was working with a gene that acted in a way that no other gene had ever acted before. (Motley and Striped excluded please) Shivers just tried too hard to explain what he was getting and what he had, when he should have just said, “It is a mystery to me“. :noevil: :sidestep:
How would you like to have that job? I told Shivers that I would try to head off any negative comments about him and I haven’t done a very good job. I have actually joined the mob squad in his lynching. Since I told him that I would defend him when I could, here it goes. As far as Falcon is concerned, if he can’t remember that 1 + 1 = Corn and 1 + 2 = Hybrid, then I don’t want that job.
“Shivers misrepresented the Ultra Ambers Motleys that he sold!” “Shivers has changed his story about the Ultra line many times.” Does everybody agree with those statements? We can include the Ultra Caramels het Motley and every other snake that he sold from the Ultra line. How can somebody misrepresent something if they do not know what it is in the first place?
Do each and every one of you completely understand the Ultra and Amel allele theory and all of the possibly combinations that may result from a breeding with the two genes involved? How many people understand that an Ultramel is only het for Amel and Ultra and not Homo like an Amel is? What language are we speaking? We have been in school studying this topic for a very long time and it is still very confusing.
The Ultra “Ambers” that Rich Z, and Mike P and other have were produced at least two years ago. The parents of those Ultra “Ambers” were produce at least 4 years ago. What did you know about Corn Snake genetics then? Can we say recessive and simple? Did you know that the Ultra Hypo was a new and distinctive genetic hypo? Did you know that the Ultra Hypo was an allele with Amel? Did you even know what that means?
Shivers knew that the Ultra was a hypo, but he thought it was a shiny penny. A Standard Hypo that was brighter for no apparent reason. It was an Ultra Hypo! A Super Duper Hypo! He got his Ultra from Andy Barr. Yes, he did! The Ultra that Shiver obtained from Barr had the Motley and Hypo genes in them either as homo or het. Yes, it did! Shivers bred them to an Amel Het Caramel and produced Morphs that nobody had ever seen before, but he thought they were a shinny penny hypo morph. He did not conceive the “Ultra Mystery Theory“.
He saved F-1’s from that first breeding and produced what? Come on, you have been reading this thread. What would he get, from an Ultra het Amber Motley X Hypo het Butter Motley? Quick what would he get? What would they look like? How would you re-produce the very yellow looking Corns in the clutch? What would you call them? What would you call a Shinny Penny Hypo Caramel? Lets see a Hypo Caramel is called an Amber, so shinny penny hypo versions would be an Ultra “Amber”. That sounds right and the Motley version Ultra “Amber” Motley.
Shivers thought he had Ultra Motleys, Ultra Caramels, Ultra Ambers, Ultra Amber Motleys and on and on. New shinny penny versions of the Standard hypo morphs. He saved the Ultra Amber Motleys and bred them to the Caramel het Motley and amel and to Ambers het amel and got more Ultra Amber Motleys and Ultra Ambers. Of course he would, based upon what you know right! Wait a minute are you sure? What would all of the offspring be carrying as het? Come on this should be easy; you have been reading this thread!
Shiver’s could not have possible known what he had or what combinations would result in what morph or what they would be het for no more than you do right now at this very instant. Nobody new that these genes existed and how they would combine when they were bred together. Shivers did not know as well and could not have possibly known.
Shiver’s decides to get out of snakes, which he did and started selling the snakes from this line. What is an Ultra Amber? What is an Ultra Caramel? What will I get if I breed the Ultra Amber with an Ultra Carmel het Amber? Shivers tried to answer all of the questions about a new and previously unknown gene, which is an allele with amel, but he did not know that, by using the genetics known at that time. The rules at that time simply did not apply to these snakes, so how could he have misrepresented them under those conditions?
The people who bred these snakes this year did not know what they were looking at when the clutches hatched. What? Am I sure I used that male? Perhaps it is sperm retention? Maybe they are het or homo for multiple Hypo genes or……..! Many of the breeders who had these Ultra “Ambers” and “Ultra” Motleys are the biggest breeders in the country and the clutches they got from them did not make any since at all, based upon the corn snake genetics known at the time.
Kat hatched some out and for some reason a light came on in her head and she said something like, “Hey I have an odd looking amel here. It is darker and has ruby eyes.“ Don S said, hey so do I, and Rich said, me too and many others said hey me too. The Ultra Hypo Mystery thread begins and today it makes perfect since to all of us doesn’t it?
Shivers tried to explain what an Ultramel was and what you would get when you bred it to an Ultra or Amel with the genetics of the time and it was simply impossible to do. He thought that the Butters he produced were het for Ultra and the Ultras were het for amel, which is impossible, right! are you sure? Under the old rules, that was the only explanation anybody would come up with, but he was working with a gene that acted in a way that no other gene had ever acted before. (Motley and Striped excluded please) Shivers just tried too hard to explain what he was getting and what he had, when he should have just said, “It is a mystery to me“. :noevil: :sidestep:
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
Joe,
I don't think the Ultramel/Paramel genetics are the issue, as they relate to each other. I must admit that I get lost in the he said, she said of the hybrid issue, but I think that would be the standing problem here. We don't even know for sure if the whole grey rat thing is really involved in the U/P saga. I don't believe there is any wrong doing other then misrepresenting hyrids, if that is the case. I, myself am too far removed and only have hear/say to go on.
Personally, I hope that there is no grey rat involved in the U/P saga.
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Hehe... Joe, half the reason said light went on in my head was because I'd been specifically trying to make hets. I contacted Don, who sold me my female lav, and queried him as to whether there was any standard hypo forms in that line, since I was trying to avoid mixing hypos in that clutch... I was told her line had had no hypo in it, and so when I got something that was NOT an amel, side-by-side with amels and normals, I couldn't help but wonder...
-Kat
(The lav was the female I bred my ultramel motley to...)
-Kat
(The lav was the female I bred my ultramel motley to...)
Vinman
Vinman
Look, this whole thread has gone off in too many derictions the main topic is the Ultra a hybird or not ?This thread was not satarted to state if hyibirds should be breed or not We know people have the right to have or not. It is do the right thing, dont keep bredind the hybirds back to one species so that no one could tell what they have so a animal wont be misrepresented. So that everbody has a choice if they want tanted blood or not . In my oppinion hybirds should be bred to be easly distinguished from pure animals. If this was done in the first place we would not have this problem now with the ultra's or anything else (do not want to get into it now). I owen a corn X mexacania and have not bred it .It is the perfict miami phaze animal that you ever seen. This thred was not satarted to tell what the ultra is het for or what it is codominate with and how it will efect combo. with other genes. Each of the other 2 topic's should have their own threads. This thread was started on one topic ONLY is this the result of a grey rat X corn . If it is what a shame who knows what the ultra hypo gray rat would have looked like and what would it produced when combined other mutations that came out of the gray rat. We will never know!!!! peace, Vincent A Ritchie (aka Vinmam)
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Apparently you've not been reading this thread from page 1. This thread was started with exploring the nature of the ultra line and gene. While this means that hybrid vs. anti-hybrid crusading isn't on topic, information and/or discussions about the ultra-based morphs in general -IS- on topic. In fact, such information comprimises roughly the first 25 and a half pages of this thread.
Granted, the hybrid/not-hybrid status of ultra lines is in question, but it is not the ONLY question, nor is it the SOLE topic of this thread. Sorry, Vin.-Kat
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Taboo Hybrids
This topic is very taboo. I am taking HUGE risks even talking about it. It is ignored and even covered up. I have a SERIOUS problem with going along with something that has to be covered up, spun or ignored to be true. To me, I will have to go along with a big lie. I do not like to LIE! Ignoring something or telling incomplete truths is the same thing to me. I am not just talking about the Ultras either.
How would the Corn Snake Hobbyist react if they knew? Are we really that fragile? It is like the Government keeping things from the general population so there will not be chaos, so life will go on. I know we are feeding our inter child with our Corn Snakes, but is it really so important that it is similar to the Government having to covering things up to prevent the break down of society?
It is possibly that there is an Ultra somewhere out there that is still pure corn if Falcon even did 1 + 1 = Corn, but they are completely impossible to identify today, but why is that if they are “Pure“. This does not even take into account the CORN POOL. Falcon has also said that he did Snow X Gray Rat and Barr got half of them. 1 + 2 = hybrid. Falcon also previously said that he bred Ultra X Gray Rat, 1 + 2 = Hybrid. Barr produced “Frosted” Corns from Gray Rat Hybrids and they ended up in Rich Z collection but Rich did not accept “as long as he doesn’t know” in that situation and got rid of them. Did Barr, misrepresent the Frosted Corns to Rich? If he did, do you think that he just might do the same thing to other people? There are Frosted Gray/Rat Corns being produced today from Barr’s line. The people who have no problem with hybrids have that information today. The other people like Rich (Forgive me Rich) got the “if they don’t know” story and were sold as “PURE“. The snakes were exactly the SAME, except for possibly the F generation that were from.
Where did all of the Corns that Barr produced with Ultra blood in them GO? We know that Shivers got one of them, but what about the others? Where are all of the Frosted Corns that Barr produced? Where are all of the offspring from these snakes? Where are all of the offspring from Creamsicles for that matter? They are in the Corn Snake POOL. Other than Falcon telling people directly that the Ultra is pure Corn like a trapped RAT, he said that they were bred to Corns and Gray Rat in the first email to me. I sent that same email to him and ask clarifying questions and he said that it is impossible to tell the genetics behind this snakes at this time. How could that be unless he knows something, but will not say it? “It is possible that Andy bred the Graysnows X Ultra” What kind of statement is that? That is a maybe you can blame Andy if you don’t like it statement, but don’t pin it on me.
Shivers has said that there is Gray Rat in the mix of the Ultra Ambers. This information has leaked out in the past from somewhere. They are both not credible now so lets just throw their statements about the Gray Rat blood right out the window. Now we can say, “As long as we don’t know” they are pure, isn’t that what everybody is wanting to do? “Until we know for a FACT” What fact is missing except for DNA testing that we need? Perhaps the Mafia getting a full confession out of Falcon or something, I am unclear on what FACT is being talked about that is missing. You don’t require a DNA test to prove Mutant Corns are pure, but there is a thousand ways to Sunday to get hybrid blood in them.
Shivers has been discredited by everybody based upon a change in story about the Gray Rat issue this is true, but mainly on the changes in stories about the genetics of the snakes involved, so lets just throw everything he has ever said right out the widow, so we can feel comfortable and not have to confront the issue at face value. Shivers is out of snakes now and if the cat is out of the bag, it doesn’t effect him now. Falcon is a God fearing man and will not say that they are pure today, and does not want anybody before to think he lied to them or told an incomplete truth. Falcon has basically left the situation so OPEN, that any possible scenario or truth is POSSIBLE, depending on how you want to spin it. There is no purity or FACTS in that.
We have to know for a “FACT“, but “As long as we don’t know they are PURE“. That is very much like a child with his head under a blanket that won’t come out. There are no FACTS that support “As long as I don’t know”. There are only unknowns.
How many people in the entire Corn Snake community know about the Ultras and the Mystery? What percent would you estimate? 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%, or less. How many people are we talking about in the entire US of A and worldwide? 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000 or more? How many people do not know about it? 50%, 75%, 90%, 95% or higher. These people are stirring the Corn Snake POOL slowly but surely. It has always been that way and it always will be. This should not cause CHAOS!
We should not have to put our head under a blanket. It is one of many hobbies, like Dogs, Cats, Tropical Fish, Birds and others. We can take it extremely serious or just play. We can have them just as pets or make a living at it, just like every other similar hobby. The Corn Snake POOL is not PURE so get over it. Knowing or as long as I don’t know does not change the reality of the POOL. It certainly does not diminish in anyway feeding our inter child. It does not diminish in anyway our Corn Snake Mutants.
Best effort, and “As long as I don’t know“? Does not change the CORN POOL. “As long as I don’t know“, should not exclude the Corn POOL, like a blanket over a child’s head. If we DNA tested a Striped Hypo Lavender Bloodred, Goldust, locality Okeetee, and wild caught corns from different areas what would we learn that we do not already know if we take our head from beneath the blanket? There will always be radial extremist on both ends and reality is somewhere in-between.
I for one, will make Ultramel Striped Lavenders and Striped Goldusts and feed my inter child and hope there will not be chaos and a break down of society.
Clint, I agree with you completely.Clint Boyer said:
This topic is very taboo. I am taking HUGE risks even talking about it. It is ignored and even covered up. I have a SERIOUS problem with going along with something that has to be covered up, spun or ignored to be true. To me, I will have to go along with a big lie. I do not like to LIE! Ignoring something or telling incomplete truths is the same thing to me. I am not just talking about the Ultras either.
How would the Corn Snake Hobbyist react if they knew? Are we really that fragile? It is like the Government keeping things from the general population so there will not be chaos, so life will go on. I know we are feeding our inter child with our Corn Snakes, but is it really so important that it is similar to the Government having to covering things up to prevent the break down of society?
It is possibly that there is an Ultra somewhere out there that is still pure corn if Falcon even did 1 + 1 = Corn, but they are completely impossible to identify today, but why is that if they are “Pure“. This does not even take into account the CORN POOL. Falcon has also said that he did Snow X Gray Rat and Barr got half of them. 1 + 2 = hybrid. Falcon also previously said that he bred Ultra X Gray Rat, 1 + 2 = Hybrid. Barr produced “Frosted” Corns from Gray Rat Hybrids and they ended up in Rich Z collection but Rich did not accept “as long as he doesn’t know” in that situation and got rid of them. Did Barr, misrepresent the Frosted Corns to Rich? If he did, do you think that he just might do the same thing to other people? There are Frosted Gray/Rat Corns being produced today from Barr’s line. The people who have no problem with hybrids have that information today. The other people like Rich (Forgive me Rich) got the “if they don’t know” story and were sold as “PURE“. The snakes were exactly the SAME, except for possibly the F generation that were from.
Where did all of the Corns that Barr produced with Ultra blood in them GO? We know that Shivers got one of them, but what about the others? Where are all of the Frosted Corns that Barr produced? Where are all of the offspring from these snakes? Where are all of the offspring from Creamsicles for that matter? They are in the Corn Snake POOL. Other than Falcon telling people directly that the Ultra is pure Corn like a trapped RAT, he said that they were bred to Corns and Gray Rat in the first email to me. I sent that same email to him and ask clarifying questions and he said that it is impossible to tell the genetics behind this snakes at this time. How could that be unless he knows something, but will not say it? “It is possible that Andy bred the Graysnows X Ultra” What kind of statement is that? That is a maybe you can blame Andy if you don’t like it statement, but don’t pin it on me.
Shivers has said that there is Gray Rat in the mix of the Ultra Ambers. This information has leaked out in the past from somewhere. They are both not credible now so lets just throw their statements about the Gray Rat blood right out the window. Now we can say, “As long as we don’t know” they are pure, isn’t that what everybody is wanting to do? “Until we know for a FACT” What fact is missing except for DNA testing that we need? Perhaps the Mafia getting a full confession out of Falcon or something, I am unclear on what FACT is being talked about that is missing. You don’t require a DNA test to prove Mutant Corns are pure, but there is a thousand ways to Sunday to get hybrid blood in them.
Shivers has been discredited by everybody based upon a change in story about the Gray Rat issue this is true, but mainly on the changes in stories about the genetics of the snakes involved, so lets just throw everything he has ever said right out the widow, so we can feel comfortable and not have to confront the issue at face value. Shivers is out of snakes now and if the cat is out of the bag, it doesn’t effect him now. Falcon is a God fearing man and will not say that they are pure today, and does not want anybody before to think he lied to them or told an incomplete truth. Falcon has basically left the situation so OPEN, that any possible scenario or truth is POSSIBLE, depending on how you want to spin it. There is no purity or FACTS in that.
We have to know for a “FACT“, but “As long as we don’t know they are PURE“. That is very much like a child with his head under a blanket that won’t come out. There are no FACTS that support “As long as I don’t know”. There are only unknowns.
How many people in the entire Corn Snake community know about the Ultras and the Mystery? What percent would you estimate? 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%, or less. How many people are we talking about in the entire US of A and worldwide? 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000 or more? How many people do not know about it? 50%, 75%, 90%, 95% or higher. These people are stirring the Corn Snake POOL slowly but surely. It has always been that way and it always will be. This should not cause CHAOS!
We should not have to put our head under a blanket. It is one of many hobbies, like Dogs, Cats, Tropical Fish, Birds and others. We can take it extremely serious or just play. We can have them just as pets or make a living at it, just like every other similar hobby. The Corn Snake POOL is not PURE so get over it. Knowing or as long as I don’t know does not change the reality of the POOL. It certainly does not diminish in anyway feeding our inter child. It does not diminish in anyway our Corn Snake Mutants.
Best effort, and “As long as I don’t know“? Does not change the CORN POOL. “As long as I don’t know“, should not exclude the Corn POOL, like a blanket over a child’s head. If we DNA tested a Striped Hypo Lavender Bloodred, Goldust, locality Okeetee, and wild caught corns from different areas what would we learn that we do not already know if we take our head from beneath the blanket? There will always be radial extremist on both ends and reality is somewhere in-between.
I for one, will make Ultramel Striped Lavenders and Striped Goldusts and feed my inter child and hope there will not be chaos and a break down of society.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
The best way to reproduce the Goldust Motleys at this time, is perhaps to breed them to a Butter Motley so the results would be half way predictable. You “should” get 50% Goldust Motleys and 50% Butter Motleys. I think it will be as simple as that.
If we breed a Goldust X Goldust, we will not get 100% Goldust. This is the situation at hand that Shivers did not understand. We will get 50% Goldust, 25% Butters and 25% Ultra hypos from that breeding.
The only way to get 100% Goldust in a clutch will be to breed Ultra Carmel X Butter = 100% Goldust. We are not sure what an Ultra Caramel really looks like at this time and we certainly do now know which ones from Shivers are just Ultra Caramels.
This is a new age in Corn Snake genetics.
If we breed a Goldust X Goldust, we will not get 100% Goldust. This is the situation at hand that Shivers did not understand. We will get 50% Goldust, 25% Butters and 25% Ultra hypos from that breeding.
The only way to get 100% Goldust in a clutch will be to breed Ultra Carmel X Butter = 100% Goldust. We are not sure what an Ultra Caramel really looks like at this time and we certainly do now know which ones from Shivers are just Ultra Caramels.
This is a new age in Corn Snake genetics.
Vinman
Vinman
Ima sory I came into this when a friend who shale remain nameless Told me about this crazy contreverasy over wether this was a hybird or not . I thought that this was the topic, agin I sorry! Now that I know what has been going on, in stead of mixing everthing everthing up in one thread, if the topic comes up about the ultra hybrid thing start a new thred on that topic only . So we can leave this thread for the understanding ultra gene and what it does vinman
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Vinman
Vinman
To throw this one at you, in some mutations the heterozygous animals have abnormal color or pattren as seen in some of the python mutations such as spider, pastel,Ball pythons and tiger retic. ect. It also happens in lusitic black rat, the pure straine not the cross with the texas rat. This sounds like what we have here to me . This is my oppinion not the word of god. I needed to make this clear so you dont think that I think I'm a know it all - - - k you can fill in the blankes yourself. love Vinman
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
I have to disagree with the inference that the entire corn snake gene pool is one big pool of all the same stuff.
It would be like saying that all domestic horses are from the same gene pool so there is no pure Arabian "breed".
I am by no means hiding my head saying that if I don't know about it then it can't be true. I agree that there are many species genes floating around in the pool but that certainly doesn't mean that they are all carrying those genes.
Granted, the genetics of corns is a growing, changing work. But we need to see the whole picture and not just one extreme or the other.
Are there hybrids being sold as corns?...YES. Are there Corns out there with genetics from only E.g.guttata?...YES.
It would be like saying that all domestic horses are from the same gene pool so there is no pure Arabian "breed".
I am by no means hiding my head saying that if I don't know about it then it can't be true. I agree that there are many species genes floating around in the pool but that certainly doesn't mean that they are all carrying those genes.
Granted, the genetics of corns is a growing, changing work. But we need to see the whole picture and not just one extreme or the other.
Are there hybrids being sold as corns?...YES. Are there Corns out there with genetics from only E.g.guttata?...YES.
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
You do realize what you've said here, Joe? You're saying that the BEST outcome of a Golddust breeding is 50% Golddust, 50% Butter...
But... Golddust X Golddust also yields 50% Golddust, 25% Butter, and 25% Ultra caramels...
You're saying you'd rather have 50% Butter than 25% Butter and 25% Ultra Caramels? Yet Ultra Caramels are more valuable than Butters, because Ultra Caramel X Butter would yield 100% Golddust. Are you seeing what I'm saying?
F1s:
Golddust X Butter_____Golddust X Golddust
-----------------_____-------------------
50% Golddust _________50% Golddust
50% Butter____________25% Butter
______________________25% Ultra Caramel
F2s:
Golddust X Butter_____Ultra Caramel X Butter
-----------------_____----------------------
See above_____________100% Golddust
Now which method seems smarter again?
-Kat
(Pardon my messy attempt at a table...didn't have time to look up the html code...)
Vinman
Vinman
I agree with you Clint 100% . What is your take on the answer what do you think we should do, we all what I think should be done . Breeders of dobermin pincher had cull a lot dog's over the last few years to clean up problems in that breed and I not talking about pureity. How many dog breeders put to sleep or culled out of their stock, animals with hip displaysuer. look what carlos did he caught a lot of heat for doing the right thing. Lets face it we are talking about a lot of money here . and nobody wants to take that loss. So sweep it under the rug like some insest baby in the family nobody wants to talk about it . vinman
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mike panic
Member
Shiver is dead in my book. I was misled and thats that. I have followed this for the most part and still do not have a clue what to call my adults and definately the babies. What are my adult male Ultra caramel motleys called? What is the butter motley from the same clutch called? What is the snake that I have been calling and Ultra Caramel now called? Whats the difference between the snakes Rich has and the ones I have other than the motley? what happens when I bred the male ultra caramel motley to his sister (butter motley) next year. why did I get butters from a snake I was told wasnt het for amel? I thought this was all theory still. WHY WHY WHY. Nothing is clear over here in Long Island. Im afraid to sell or trade these babies because I am so afraid to mislead people.
mike panic
Member
Let me hit you with some photos Joe and you can give me a gander on some of these snakes. I have no idea what is what at this point. I will bring all of the adults and all of the babies to the Philly show if anyone is going. I would love to gather some opinions from you guys if you can see them in person. Please bare with me I am posting some photos that you probably already saw. Thanks
question #1 is this male what we are calling a goldust motley?
question #1 is this male what we are calling a goldust motley?
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mike panic
Member
is this female
what we are calling a goldust? the female in the water dish is a clutchmate who at the time I was told was a caramel het for amber. The first female when bred to both of the motley males threw off butters of some sort. I also included a photo of both of the butters in the clutch as well as what I thought is an ultra caramel. What would you call each female and each baby?
what we are calling a goldust? the female in the water dish is a clutchmate who at the time I was told was a caramel het for amber. The first female when bred to both of the motley males threw off butters of some sort. I also included a photo of both of the butters in the clutch as well as what I thought is an ultra caramel. What would you call each female and each baby?
