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Ultramel Gene

So we are saying, about the Ultra gene/s, that it is still unknown if it is a hybrid, but is suspected to be one? Even though no one has been able to duplicate it through breeding trials.

What should we label them? hybrid, possible hybrid, corn snake, rat snake?:shrugs:

My brain hurts.....:confused:
 
So we are saying, about the Ultra gene/s, that it is still unknown if it is a hybrid, but is suspected to be one?
Click to expand...
Yep

Even though no one has been able to duplicate it through breeding trials.
Click to expand...
Yep

What should we label them? hybrid, possible hybrid, corn snake, rat snake
Click to expand...
Good question. Don S has obviously gone the 100% hybrid route in his labelling and I'd be loathe to differ.

The debate doesn't seem to be as absolutely clear-cut as his site indicates (apparently the originator has never stated that he definitely used Rat Snakes to get Ultra, just that he *may* have done and he couldn't remember), but Don's is a conservative approach based on personal experience, which to my mind is the most ethical, given the lack of absolute facts.
 
All I can say is that I'll still keep, breed and sell ultra morphs. The lineage of the non-ultra siblings is always available to those who really care, but I will not purposely label butters from my golddust X golddust pairings as such. I did in the past and it never really made any difference to any of my buyers. I don't hide the fact of where they came from and if someone is that particular, all they have to do is look or ask. Am I personally convinced that ultras are hybrids? Honestly, no, I'm not. I have yet to hatch out anything ultra or from an ultra breeding that would indicate to me it's a hybrid. I am not at all familiar with the frosted line from Don or if they were actually hybrids or not so I can't say if they really did look like ultramel anerys or not. I can say that the ultramel anery motley currently in my possession sure looks like a cornsnake to me, and I can compare it to hypo A anerys, lava anerys, dilute anerys and Sunkissed anerys. And of all of those hypo-type genes, it's the Sunkisseds that look different enough from everything else and would be the ones I would think might not be "100% pure" corn snakes, but surprisingly, that morph hasn't been questioned at all, not even as much as the cinders, another potential hybrid with all those higher saddle counts...:rolleyes:
 
chris68 said:
Actually Don based his decision on comparisons between his frosted rat line and ultramel anery a's from the other line per his site. So that is as definitive an answer as can be expected. :)
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I'm guessing you haven't talked to Don about this. Before anyone actually 'speculates' whether Don knows about this via comparison, etc, might want to talk to him first.
From what I remember via conversations with him, he's heard it directly from the horses' mouth that these are derivatives of grey rats.

In fact, gonna try to get a hold of him to see what he might have to say.
 
What you quoted is from your post on page 1 that was quoted by you from a post of Dons so not any "speculating" there. I don't recall him saying that it was ever admitted that the ultra founder(s) "fessed up" ;)
 
With the corn and rat comparison I think like this, analogy wise

A colubrid is a mammal

A rat snake is like a canine

A corn snake is like a dog

A morph is the breed

Basically, in my view, a cornsnake is a subspecies of ratsnake.
 
cornsnakeforsale_com said:
Whoa, now I'm really getting confused. Someone's crossing colubrids and dogs?!
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Of course silly! Where do you think corn dogs come from?!

corn_dogs.jpg
 
Officially claiming them as hybrids now, and I don't remember them be label as such anytime before even with the speculation and debate far defeated the purpose of when it needed to be done and an Impossible task to change, And there are far easier sure signs hybrids in other lines just have to dig deeper past the diluted generations.
 
It was an analogy lol. colubrid:mammal;ratsnake:canine;cornsnake:dog;morph:breed.
 
Buzzard said:
So we are saying, about the Ultra gene/s, that it is still unknown if it is a hybrid, but is suspected to be one? Even though no one has been able to duplicate it through breeding trials.

What should we label them? hybrid, possible hybrid, corn snake, rat snake?:shrugs:

My brain hurts.....:confused:
Click to expand...

I don't know what "we" are saying about Ultra. I have a few, I keep them specifically labeled if they contain Ultra as far as I know, or not.
In the original archived thread in post 6, http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1430030&postcount=6

When you take the time to thoroughly read and digest all 40 pages, it looks to me that there were a few different "sources where Ultra came from".

I suspect, speculate-
that perhaps more than one new gene was introduced to cornsnake breeders around the same time, which may have had similar results in breeding trials. Whether there was only one gene or more than one gene, and they were all lumped together and collectively called "ultra" may likely never be known.

It seems that this new "gene" was initially passed off as coming from a corn-corn cross, and many breeders eagerly took in this new gene to work into their collections, but 7-10 years later, many conflicting stories were told by some of the "finders" of Ultra, some of these stories explicitly mentioned that it was the result of cornsnake X ratsnake.

By then, Ultra was so heavily bred into all of the existing lines of cornsnakes, that the only way to get rid of it entirely, is to destroy all living cornsnakes in captivity and start over.
Or learn to accept that it is here, floating around in lots of stock, occasionally showing up in unexpected places.

I suppose it is up to individuals to decide for themselves if it is worth mentioning if Ultra is present (known homo/het), or not. It seems to me that most persons looking for a pet corn will get a pet corn.

It might be an orange corn or it might be an orange corn or it might be an ultramel.
Or to say what I just said another way:
It might be an amel cornsnake or it might be a cremesicle cornsnake or it might be an ultramel.
 
dave partington said:
Or learn to accept that it is here, floating around in lots of stock, occasionally showing up in unexpected places.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. It's here, it's a drop of milk in the swimming pool - i.e. it's so diluted that it doesn't even matter anymore. And personally I love the look of Ultra.
 
Also, it does matter to those who don't want one or a decedent of one in their projects, so being as informed as possible as keepers and breeders is really important. :)
 
Didn't Rich state somewhere else in another thread that he takes anything that Mike Shiver says in question because of the flip-floppiness of this very subject? It may have been the other Mike... I am not sure.
 
I still love the gene, and there's no way to get rid of it completely or know for sure.
I'll believe it when it's proven, until then, VIVA LA ULTRAMEL.
 
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