Unpopular opinions

[cthulhu73]

I have recently been spending more time on the forums again ( mostly reading and minding my own business) but read a rather long and heated discussion on the cohabitation of Corns. It raised more than a few questions and really made me look back on my own experiences and re evaluate them.

The biggest argument I saw against cohab was that it was unnatural and un healthy, but I have also read that CB corns should never be released into the wild as they would not know how to survive. So wouldnt it stand to argue that in keeping CB snakes we are already working within a different set of rules?

Half of the "designer" corns we are so crazy about are not ever found in the wild and most of the crosses do not occur in wild and on the rare occasion they do the rules of nature dont often allow a long and healthy life.
Also in the wild inbreeding is less likely to happen but someone in the hobby forces daughter to father and creates a mutant with small scales and no scales on the head and its considered a "cool" thing the deformed snakes are "keepers"?

More later lets see where this gets us first.

 

[mike17l]

 

[whippet]

But here is the real answer. Name one thing that BENIFITS the snake by being cohabbed.
There is only one. Saving money for the owner.
Stress, the inablity to figure out which snake is ill/regurged, unpredictable breeding, fighting among males, becoming agreessive...are all negatives. BUt there is only one positive. Saving money and or space.
Frankly forcing your snakes to cohab because you are too cheap to buy a rack or get multible tanks is a terrible answer.

So can you name a positive reason to cohab snakes besides being convenient to you?

 

[Outcast]

The biggest argument I saw against cohab was that it was unnatural and un healthy, but I have also read that CB corns should never be released into the wild as they would not know how to survive. So wouldnt it stand to argue that in keeping CB snakes we are already working within a different set of rules?

Well, to add to the discussion. A CB corn can live in the wild just fine. They work on their instinct to hunt food and find a nice place to bed down/warm up if need be. If it were a normal corn, or one without some crazy "LOOK AT ME... FREE LUNCH!!!!" colors I think it would be able to live a full life in the wild. The problem with releasing anything that has been in captivity, into the wild, comes from possible diseases being spread to wild populations, and killing them off.

Half of the "designer" corns we are so crazy about are not ever found in the wild and most of the crosses do not occur in wild and on the rare occasion they do the rules of nature dont often allow a long and healthy life.
Also in the wild inbreeding is less likely to happen but someone in the hobby forces daughter to father and creates a mutant with small scales and no scales on the head and its considered a "cool" thing the deformed snakes are "keepers"?

More later lets see where this gets us first.

How do we know for sure that the inbreeding of father to daughter, son to mother, or sibling to sibling do not happen often in the wild? The truth is that we don't. If we did there would have not been so many different gene's discovered from wild corn snakes. At least that is how I see it. I mean, what are the chances, that two random unrelated wild snakes are carrying the same recessive genes for lets say, bloodred, or hypo, or amel, or anery?

 

[Nanci]

People inbreed and linebreed cornsnakes all the time. It is a very, very rare thing for a mutation to pop up. I feel about the Tiny Scales kind of how I feel about scaleless- it's a cool look, as long as someone else owns them! I am very curious to see how the Tiny Scales develop. The missing scales on the heads wasn't as apparent when they were smaller. I love the tiny, seed-like scale look, but you're right- the missing scales on the head is at best an oddity. Some would fine it unattractive.

Is there a way to know how often inbreeding and linebreeding happens in nature? Perhaps Dr. Mohr would care to comment. I suspect it happens sometimes. Otherwise, how would certain areas have a concentration of the same gene, such as anery, or the same look, such as Okeetee or Keys? Or Alabama, or Devil's Garden, or any of the unique localities.

Of course most of the weird genetic combinations don't occur in the wild. If the first clutch of lavenders hadn't hatched in captivity, _if_ any of the lavender gene carrying babies had survived, what are the odds that they would not have dispersed in different directions and never found a sibling or parent to breed with, to start a new generation? And even if some had survived, they would have virtually zero chance of traveling to NE Florida and finding a bloodred mate. I've caught a few wild corns, and my domestic corns don't seem any less hardy than their wild counterparts.

You are right, though- the minute we take an animal out of the wild (even generations later) and keep it under conditions that are convenient for _us,_ that animal ceases to live under truly natural conditions. The living space is limited to an extreme extent. The diet is altered, and usually not offered alive. The natural weather conditions are removed. At best, the snake can pick between two moderate temperatures. When you look at snakes that are kept in lab animal standard housing- no substrate, small water bowl, maybe a hide, maybe not- they seem to thrive and reproduce. Something must be working. Does a snake know that there is a wild version of itself, out in the elements, eating a natural, live diet (parasites and all), avoiding predation and road kill and human attack, having to hide for great periods of time from temperature extremes, living a probably greatly-reduced life? Would the snake choose to be wild if it could, or remain a pampered pet? Who knows...

 

[cthulhu73]

Thank you for the constructive contribution

I think I had a valid question if the snakes we keep wouldnt survive in the wild then why do we insist that the "natural" answer is the correct one.

I have seen many collections in my years and I must say I have seen snakes cohab and thrive and I have seen "solitary confinement" collections that were absolute nightmares.

I think the responsibility level and knowledge of the keeper has far more to do with successful husbandry.

I think a large tank with proper conditions housing two snakes is healthier than two small tanks with heat rocks.

As far as the only benefit of cohab being the ease on the keepers wallet. I agree. But that IS a benefit to the snake(s) If a hobby becomes too expensive or stressful to the keeper that could definitely impact the quality of life of his/her animals.

 

[Nanci]

Speaking of domestic cornsnakes surviving in the wild, Tara has a snow that escaped and lived outside for a year, including a winter way up north out of the cornsnake's natural range. The snake was recovered, fat and sassy, a year later. Obviously, an adult snake that had only even fed on FT mice for its entire life, still retained the instincts to hunt and hide and thermoregulate.

Snakes can and do survive and thrive in small, barren cages. I myself wouldn't choose to house them like that. It has been proven that higher animals such as pigs and cows are less stressed when provided a more interactive environment, but no one seems to know if that holds true for lesser animals. We had a pretty extensive discussion about it some time ago. It is more for our individual benefit to provide a pretty, pleasing, spacious, attractive home for a snake than for the benefit of the snake itself.

 

[Dreamsnake]

Thank you for the constructive contribution


I think the responsibility level and knowledge of the keeper has far more to do with successful husbandry.

I think a large tank with proper conditions housing two snakes is healthier than two small tanks with heat rocks.

Experience is the key element with cohabing corn snakes. The great majority of people who do cohab have no or very little experience with corn snakes.

Many times they think the snakes are happy because they're cuddling.

I know a young man who keeps all his pythons in one tank. He was told it was fine by an old guy who has kept a snake collection for twenty years. My friend will not go on forums to look up any new information on husbandry or listen to me because he knows how to care for his own snakes.

Snake keeping is a continually developing hobby. In twenty years we may have thermo regulating substrate and remember back on the old days of under tank heaters.

 

[Naagas]

Snakes tend to do better when kept in the proper environment: I.e. Separate enclosures, UTH, proper temps and humidity, mite-free, parasite-free, etc.

Of course you have the freedom to keep your snakes in substandard environments. Your snakes will probably survive, too. Snakes are mostly hardy. I just talked to a guy who rescued a boa that went without water for 6 months. Whoa.

I don't believe that inbreeding when done in moderation is unhealthy. I think that it sounds amoral to us when we think about humans inbreeding- but snakes are not humans.

 

[cthulhu73]

My point is that we are not dealing in "absolutes". It was mentioned that 2 snakes coexisting is a learned behavior and that they must have overcame some amount of stress in doing so in the same thread it was mentioned the stress caused to the remaining snake when its room mate later escaped. If its ok for us as hobbyists to tamper and manipulate the genetics of the animals then why not the behavior. If 2 snakes can learn to live in a shared vivarium then what is "wrong" with that scenario.

On the subject of Racks disease and infection CAN still spread throughout your collection the snakes CAN still smell each other and are to some extent aware of each other so it is my deduction the only REAL threat of cohab is cannibalism.

Now in the 16 or so years I have kept reptiles YES I have/had cohab animals I also have/had and prefer racks. The only cannibalism I ever experienced was in the cages of my feeder animals (mice/rats).

 

[crotalis40741]

i know i am far from an expert on this page but have an opinion also. line breeding or inbreeding i think does occur in wild populations. especially in ones that have low populations of adults. It would take a random dna sampling of the populations to be sure. i also think that if taken too far it does make for a weaker animal. out crossing can bring back vigor in the line being bred. one post was talking about wild free lunch colors in the wild. i know they are not corns but look at the calico cow sucker aka calico black ratsnakes that Will Bird found in Jefferson Co. Ky. A small population of white calico and some lemon snakes surviving and thriving in the wild. I do keep my snakes in a plastic tote rack system and not the eye pleasing vivs. It is easier to keep clean and less space costly. The snakes don't seem to mind either way as long as they are warm, fed, and have water and a place to hide. It is all about pesonal choice in this area. People can look down on me for this if they want, and i don't cohab because it is easier for me anyway. I may be way off the mark here but these sites are for the mutual learning of all members and an equal sharing of information but seems alot of times it just becomes a heated debate that usually departs from the original topic anyways. I have kept reptiles for a lot of years on and off but when I came here I still learned a lot and am grateful the information is here. But we must all remember what works for one may not work for another. Happy herping all

 

[cthulhu73]

Ok now on the morph portion of my original post. I understand that many variations "could" exist in the wild but that doesn't change the fact that they DON'T, many "designer" morphs were created within the hobby by selective breeding and crossing. I will be the first to admit that I love the variety of color and pattern choices now commonly available within the hobby. But I have also seen many specimens that are far from what I would consider as hearty as the less desirable common types. I have also noticed that the more recessive traits you combine the less likely it is for the animal to be a hearty animal. I know several breeders who have gone "back to basics" if you will because of this. I am also aware that taking "short cuts" to prove out a trait is common practice. But if the "snake gods" can look down from the mountain to judge us for our how we house our animals should they not too be judged for irresponsible breeding decisions. I understand that producing (and marketing) it first is how the game is played. But I also believe that as breeders a certain responsibility should be taken to strengthen the line by introducing "new blood" instead of just turning it back on itself for the quick buck. It is unfortunate that "birth defects" have become comparable to winning the lottery.

 

[Naagas]

"Birth Defects" are what stopped people from all dying of malaria and what may now be responsible for the cure for AIDs.
Birth defects being incorporated into a population is how evolution occurs. It benefits us sometimes and doesn't benefit us other times.
Birth defects CAN be like winning the lottery.
As long as the animal is healthy and well-cared for, then I don't see the problem.

Who cares if they could survive in the wild? They don't have to. Just like pugs and tail-less cats and miniature chihuahuas don't have to- we breed them for pets because we like 'em.

I don't see a problem with a limited amount of inbreeding, as it doesn't pose significant health risks in corn snakes. All bred animals experience a certain amount of inbreeding.
Of course there will be people who don't EVER introduce new blood- and their snakes will have more problems and be less hardy. However, chances are that those sickly snakes are not going to be desirable breeding stock.
The same thing happens in dog breeding, which is why there are now strict breeding standards in place.

But if the snake is always going to live in captivity and can live a healthy life then WHY NOT have "less hardy" morphs? Pugs have asthma, Dalmatians have higher risk of cancer, and some mini chihuahuas can't regulate their body temperature appropriately. These are less hardy breeds, but with many desirable traits. They can be well-cared for and live good lives. I think that this is how the "snake gods" will judge us: by ensuring that we develop animals that can be well-cared for and live good lives.
This is why the Stargazer gene is so carefully avoided, and also why some breeders let non-feeders die instead of force-feeding them- in order to maintain the gene pool. I see lots and lots of examples of breeders trying to ensure a good genetic pool. I don't see anything unethical about breeding a daughter to father, or a brother and sister, unless it is done for many generations. I don't see that happening in most breeding plans, unless you are line breeding- and since snakes take 3 years to mature it would take quite a few years to see any ill effects. Most people who are devoting YEARS and YEARS to breeding aren't in it for the "quick buck" as you put it.

Why should I not be allowed to own and care for a scaleless corn snake? Or even breed them? As long as they are taken care of it and their well-being is ensured, I don't see how it is any less ethical than owning other more domesticated animals.

So, I understand the need for ethical breeding practices, but I disagree with your assessment of current breeding practices.

 

[cthulhu73]

"Birth Defects" are what stopped people from all dying of malaria and what may now be responsible for the cure for AIDs.

*LOL are you serious? Genetic manipulation of snakes for the sake of physical appearance is a far cry from curing aids.

Birth defects being incorporated into a population is how evolution occurs.

*Learned behavior is as well.

Birth defects CAN be like winning the lottery.

*Especially when you can market it first.

As long as the animal is healthy and well-cared for, then I don't see the problem.

* Exactly!!! Oh wait as long as you don't keep 2 in the same cage right?

Who cares if they could survive in the wild? They don't have to.

*So its ok to breed in weakness as long as its pretty?

So, I understand the need for ethical breeding practices, but I disagree with your assessment of current breeding practices.

*I made know accusation that all breeders were bad, just that some are very likely to make a financially motivated decision regardless of whether or not its good for the animal AND that a few of these "experts" will just as quickly condemn someone else for the choices they make.

 

[Outcast]

Cthulu, it seems to me that you are intent on starting a heated debate.

 

[cthulhu73]

Not my intention at all Outcast honest. I love this forum and appreciate the wonderful resource it is. I simply cant understand while certain "questionable" practices are condemned while others are embraced or ignored.

 

[starsevol]

Not my intention at all Outcast honest. I love this forum and appreciate the wonderful resource it is. I simply cant understand while certain "questionable" practices are condemned while others are embraced or ignored.

In my case, I had one of my favorite snakes DIE as a result of being co habbed. Not to mention that whether it is a human or an animal, stress can kill or shorten a lifespan. Co habbing causes stress, and corns are not social creatures, they are simple animals and are not designed to live together.
I consider forcing a lifestyle on a primitive lifeform that is not equipped to deal with it animal abuse. Sorry, but my opinion won't change anytime soon.

 

[Jdog3131]

Oh they could be stressed and die because they don't eat and tey must compete for space and they could become stressed...With racks they have their OWN space!!Although I must say you can co-hab...with no walls

 

[cthulhu73]

Please explain how a rack system removes stress from snakes they can still smell each other and are aware of one another? Disease can still travel through a rack system. So WHY (other than being VERY convenient) are they better? I'm not fighting I REALLY want to hear then answer.

Stars how did you favorite snake DIE from co habbed?
"I consider forcing a lifestyle on a primitive lifeform that is not equipped to deal with it animal abuse."

But never mind the stress of breeding and the complications that can result from it?

 

[bitsy]

I'm interested in the concept of making a "quick buck" from breeding Corn Snakes. In all the years I've been on this board I've never heard of anyone managing it.

Major breeders like Kathy and Rich Z sweat buckets for years, originating morphs along the way, and come out with a small profit. Most of the time they need to rely on other income to make sure bills are paid.